A deceptively bad cube

I'm not sure what to suggest about the aggressive blue creatures in U/r and U/b. There are some more 2cc evasive flyers or shadow creatures you could add (to carry equipment), but for U/W you say already have enough flyers? Whats going on there?


The idea is that I split decks into Tempo or Value, not aggro or control. You either try to win before the opponent can stabilize with mana, or you win by drowning them in cards advantage.

While there are a lot of fliers in blue, I feel like blue ends up being way too slow as an aggressive colour. Sure, it can play creatures + equipment, but even Bonesplitter into Augury Owl is a slow start that is very vulnerable to removal. By the time you'd beat your opponent down, they for sure would have killed you. I feel like the number of cards with 1 power is too high.

An aggressive W/U deck would be more successful by relying on white for fliers, since it has so much more power per card (the tokens make mass buffs really good), but then the deck is not really as aggressive.

In the same vein, the blue prowess creatures don't really push an aggressive gameplan. They often hit for 1 or 2. That being said, blue's support for tempo decks is amazing. I just wished a bit more of that was geared towards actually being aggressive, rather than just supporting.

I wonder if, with the ninjutsu guys, adding cards like Ronin Warclub or Sai of the Shinobi might be enough. Still feels like support, but gives a greater incentive to add ninjutsu to an aggressive deck. (They currently feel like too much of a value card and such a loss of tempo).

TL;DR: The problem with aggro decks that include U is you want very few of your creatures to be blue.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I'm going to take this opportunity to plug my favorite blue aggressive flier:


It helps pressure on the ground, acts as an out to large creatures in color pairs that might have trouble with that (UR mainly), and makes blocking akward but not impossible.

Maybe it's not a good fit for the problems you have but I've loved it so much I thought I'd throw it your way
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
yeah, what you want to do is include more 2/1 flyers for 2. You'll want those to power the ninjas anyways.



Are pretty big cards for that deck, that I run.

Ninjas like tokens, shadow creatures, buffs (equipment, bestow, auras), flyers, and bounce/removal spells.
 
Hm....

Out with the old, in the with new.

Cube is becoming a 2.0, a bit too many changes to just modify the cube tutor list.

Honestly, the driving force behind these changes is not that I think I'm making my old list better. I'm making a more ambitious, more interesting list, that I'd want to tweak to something better.

Here's a bit of philosophy, which I've promised months ago and never written about, I'll try to keep it brief:

Two decks:
I want my cube to essentially have two decks at odds with eachother. Those should be Tempo decks and Value decks. Tempo decks seek to beat the opponent by overwhelming them with mana advantage. When a tempo deck wins, I was the opponent to feel like they would have had victory if their lands tapped for two. Aggro decks mostly fit in the tempo range, as you try to kill you opponent before they manage to stabilise. Traditional Tempo decks fit in this category, but so do slower decks that pump out threats whose answers are technically available, but just inefficient. The obvious danger here is decks that just bulldoze over others with their tempo plays. The value decks go for the opposite, when they win, the opponent should feel like they would have held if they had more cards. Stuff like Burning Vengeance Abandoned Sarcophagus Cycling control would be an example. Now, obviously the value deck would need some tempo cards to deal with early aggression, but this is a loose model of what I had in mind.

Noncreature removal:
With bouncelands being so prevalent and the emphasis on preventing "non-games" I wanted to avoid land bounce/removal. When it comes to non-land, non-creature permanents, I wanted to avoid situations where you one might use their removal spell on the first target, since it might be the only one/best one. This happens in my friend's cube, it has a lot of removal for those types, and not many good targets, but the ones that exist are way above average power level, so using them asap is usually the answer. I therefore avoided all artifact/enchantment removal spells that could only be used to target them. Cycling, Creature targets were widely used.

Making RG interesting:
Cube is the only format where I play creatures. I tend to avoid them when I can (or unless I'm doing something gimmicky), and it's become a joke in my group that I tend to read cards as seen in the spoiler below. As such I tend to avoid Green Red (I have a GR Xenagos Control list with only three creatures). Making the colour combination interesting was a bit hard for me. Archetypes tend to be Wildfire, which I didn't want, or some creature archetype (Power Matters, Monsters, Value, Beatdown, Haste Aggro, Zoo :/), with Beserkers (Doublestrike+Buffs instakill) seemed to be the only interesting one, but I was worried about being able to support it (because I am an idiot who is going for 20 "half decks" rather than 10 archetypes). I think I found an ok way to use creatures in GR (obviously gimmicky) hopefully it works, I hope it's at least better than what I had before. I'll mention now, part of it is Power Matters deck, more on the Tempo end than Value.
Creature 3WW
Creature - Creature
Creature Ability, Creature Ability, Creature Ability, protection from Creature and from Creature
5/5

Making WG Interesting:
Same as RG. Thought of +1/+1 Counters value (contrast with BG +1/+1 Counter Aggro), Humans, Tokens, Blink, so on... I found one that seemed really cool and unique. But I ended up cutting it, as I felt I could not support it. Instead, I doubled down on the Golems, made WG a type of midrange artifact Aggro, to counters RW's faster deck, that should be more numerous and lower to the ground, as well as working well with WG's other halfdeck, EtB + Blink (return to hand, not free, lol). This becomes a hardcore value deck.
BTW, the cool one would have been a GW "Go Wide" deck based on having a large number of untapped creatures, not sure it was good enough, and required too many non-overlapping pieces:

I also removed almost all X burn spells, since they seemed to just end games too easily, which might not be as much of a problem now, I'll have to see, Devil's Play was a bit gross before

Good stuff:
WU Skies is now a deck that could happen, without being the a primarily supported theme.
WU (maybe prowess) Tempo is now
Fleshed out WB Lifegain
Added support for a fringe WR Artifact Control deck
WG actually has decks now
Baron control has more support

Sad stuff:
Cut Young Pyromancer.
Cut Tokens from Red, kept some of the support.
Cut lots of cyclers.
What even is UB?
RB I feel I'll have to keep an eye out for, it seems a bit lost.
Worried I powercreeped a ton, and things will be uneven, I've read about the vanilla test and I'm afraid far too many creatures pass it.
Worried about board stalls, with the strong defensive tools.

Want to see the changes?
Emerge Unscathed->Mardu Woe-Reaper
Emeria Angel->Angelic Accord
Enlightened Tutor->Ajani's Pridemate
Intangible Virtue->Ajani's Pridemate
Journey to Nowhere->Blessed Alliance
Kor Sanctifiers->Forsake the Worldly
Oblivion Ring->Chastise
Sacred Cat->Mardu Woe-Reaper
Saltblast->Cast Out
Secure the Wastes->Increasing Devotion
Servo Exhibition->Wall of Omens
Shrine of Loyal Legions->Razor Hippogriff
Spectral Procession->Timely Reinforcements
Toolcraft Exemplar->Court Homunculus
Caller of Gales->Silent Departure
Cloud of Faeries->Doorkeeper
Crush of Tentacles->Whirler Rogue
Drake Haven->Mistblade Shinobi
Favorable Winds->Doorkeeper
Flash of Insight->Mnemonic Wall
Frantic Search->Aerial Guide
Hypnotic Siren->Force Spike
Into the Roil->Bonded Fetch
Jeskai Elder->Spellweaver Eternal
Memory Lapse->Remand
Miscalculation->Warkite Marauder
Nibilis of Frost->Ninja of the Deep Hours
Pestermite->Geist of the Archives
Spiketail Hatchling->Fogwalker
Barter in Blood->Mindwrack Demon
Blood Artist->Zulaport Cutthroat
Bloodthrone Vampire->Deepcavern Imp
Damnable Pact->Sanguine Bond
Fleshbag Marauder->Wall of Limbs
Kitesail Freebooter->Skullsnatcher
Murderous Cut->Grave Scrabbler
Never // Return->Crippling Fatigue
Night's Whisper->Olivia's Dragoon
Okiba-Gang Shinobi->Throat Slitter
Oona's Prowler->Duskhunter Bat
Pestilence->Biting Rain
Scourge of Nel Toth->Necropolis Fiend
Scrapheap Scrounger->Pale Rider of Trostad
Skeletal Scrying->Sanguine Bond
Undying Evil->Dregscape Zombie
Vigor Mortis->Bloodbond Vampire
Beetleback Chief->Quicksmith Genius
Bloodrage Brawler->Burning-Fist Minotaur
Devil's Play->Bedlam Reveler
Falkenrath Gorger->Inventor's Apprentice
Galvanic Blast->Trash for Treasure
Goblin Bombardment->Ravenous Bloodseeker
Greater Gargadon->Hoarding Dragon
Guttersnipe->Thermo-Alchemist
Hell's Thunder->Burning Vengeance
Hellspark Elemental->Flamewake Phoenix
Hordeling Outburst->Wall of Torches
Incorrigible Youths->Vent Sentinel
Molten Vortex->Firebolt
Quicksmith Rebel->Heart-Piercer Manticore
Reckless Wurm->Pyromancer's Goggles
Sanguinary Mage->Abbot of Keral Keep
Scourge Devil->Rage Nimbus
Staggershock->Quicksmith Genius
Sweltering Suns->Starstorm
Thopter Engineer->Bludgeon Brawl
Thorned Moloch->Vent Sentinel
Young Pyromancer->Thermo-Alchemist
Young Pyromancer->Crater Elemental
Ambush Viper->Glade Watcher
Aquastrand Spider->Obsessive Skinner
Briarhorn->Savage Punch
Call of the Herd->Merfolk Branchwalker
Hope Tender->Wall of Blossoms
Life from the Loam->Axebane Guardian
Return to the Earth->Renegade Krasis
Ridgescale Tusker->Cultivator of Blades
Roaring Primadox->Archers of Qarsi
Roaring Primadox->Vital Splicer
Satyr Wayfinder->Resilient Khenra
Satyr Wayfinder->Savage Punch
Servant of the Scale->Experiment One
Shefet Monitor->Carven Caryatid
Strangleroot Geist->Merfolk Branchwalker
Thrashing Mossdog->Frontier Mastodon
Voyaging Satyr->Overgrown Battlement
Young Wolf->Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
Bloodhall Priest->Rakdos Guildmage
Claim // Fame->Merciless Javelineer
Cut // Ribbons->Strangling Soot
Fire // Ice->Bloodwater Entity
Firemane Angel->Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Fires of Yavimaya->Pit Fight
Hidden Stockpile->Vizkopa Guildmage
Hidden Stockpile->Vizkopa Guildmage
Marauding Looter->Stormchaser Mage
Olivia, Mobilized for War->Fires of Undeath
Ribbons of Night->Dimir Infiltrator
Searing Meditation->Weapon Trainer
Selesnya Evangel->Fleetfoot Panther
Sky Hussar->Cloudblazer
Species Gorger->Jungle Barrier
Species Gorger->Jungle Barrier
Sphinx's Revelation->Judge's Familiar
Teleportal->Stormchaser Mage
Thunderclap Wyvern->Feeling of Dread
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice->Fleetfoot Panther
Unburial Rites->Cartel Aristocrat
Burning-Tree Emissary->Chief of the Foundry
Coiling Oracle->Chief of the Foundry
Lightning Helix->Crumbling Colossus
Migratory Route->Epitaph Golem
Mindswipe->Guardian of the Ages
Murderous Redcap->Colossus of Akros
Rags // Riches->Junktroller
Selesnya Guildmage->Sickleslicer
Slitherhead->Warmonger's Chariot
Zealous Persecution->Sylvok Lifestaff
Animation Module->Key to the City
Bonesplitter->Dynavolt Tower
Vulshok Morningstar->Dynavolt Tower
Vulshok Battlegear->Boompile
Bonehoard->Dragon Throne of Tarkir
Chronomaton->Seer's Sundial
Steel Overseer->Signal Pest
Wall of Tanglecord->Perilous Myr
Tranquil Thicket->Geier Reach Sanitarium
Nephalia Drownyard->Arch of Orazca

Yeah.

Sig for new cube.

The original one is gone, I accidentally added a blank cube on Cube Tutor. When I went to deleted it, I typoed on my password. I re-entered, but didn't notice the error reset my selection to the first cube. Bye bye original cube.
 

Grixis Burning Vengeance from CubeTutor.com










Drafted a Burning Vengeance deck. I see we're both fans of 3xInnistrad? One thing I noticed was that there isn't an abundance of flashback cards, so I felt like I had some auto picks whenever I saw a flashback card. Maybe you could try fit in some more of them? Break singleton on a few more?

Edit: I also really missed a good source of self mill, which I feel is crucial in order to be able to cast enough spells from the graveyard in time to stabilize with vengeance!
 

Grixis Burning Vengeance from CubeTutor.com










Drafted a Burning Vengeance deck. I see we're both fans of 3xInnistrad? One thing I noticed was that there isn't an abundance of flashback cards, so I felt like I had some auto picks whenever I saw a flashback card. Maybe you could try fit in some more of them? Break singleton on a few more?

Edit: I also really missed a good source of self mill, which I feel is crucial in order to be able to cast enough spells from the graveyard in time to stabilize with vengeance!


Not counting Abandoned Sarcophagus + cycling, I have the following breakdown of cards castable from the graveyard:
W: 2
U: 10
B: 9
R: 12
G: 7

Which might be low if people are fighting over these, I'll have to see how Innistrad faired. I do have self-mill, more in UG, but I was hoping looting could be sufficient, I didn't think of playing Burning Vengeance as a self-mill + gravecasting in those colours, I assumed it'd be a more grindy affair. I'll have to keep an eye on this plays out.

Thank you for the feedback, it gives me a feel for what I'll need to keep an eye out for when I do get the cards for the update and start playing.
 

This is a great card for this sort of deck. I notice you have a lot of blue draw at 4 CMC. Strategic planning can help add diversity to that plateau. I also think a second


Edit: also, your red section could use:
 

This is a great card for this sort of deck. I notice you have a lot of blue draw at 4 CMC. Strategic planning can help add diversity to that plateau. I also think a second


Edit: also, your red section could use:


Not a huge fan of Strategic Planning, but it does fit quite well. I technically only count 3 blue draw cards at 4 CMC, but the 4 hybrid CA cards at that slot really do push it. I quite like the 2 Careful Consideration, and I feel Deep Analysis is needed.

I did have two Think Twice, and cut on late-ish in the process. I'll have to possibly rework the blue section.

I do quite like Flame Jab, maybe replace a Firebolt?

Hmm...
 
The two Mystical Teachings and Mystic Retrievals do indeed count in many ways and are all at 4 CMC. It's a pretty stacked slot. And that's not counting actual multicolor either.

I'd say replacing one of the firebolts is good yeah.
 
The two Mystical Teachings and Mystic Retrievals do indeed count in many ways and are all at 4 CMC. It's a pretty stacked slot. And that's not counting actual multicolor either.

I'd say replacing one of the firebolts is good yeah.



Are the only good targets for Mystical Teachings. I really like the card, and those cards, and without it, I might cut them. But this also seems quite a stretch for the theme, and I should maybe ditch the Teachings (I do count both Mystical Teachings and Mystic Retrievals as hybrid/gold since both B and R could bin them quite easily). I've always been a huge fan of the paper deck Parlor Tricks(*), and could fit that in instead in UB, as a Tutoring UB Control deck (I sort of already have with the Black Sun's Zenith inclusion). This would alleviate the 4 slot, I'd possibly end up replacing Wydwen, probably the Havenwood Wurm. In this case, UB multicolor/Hybrid gets 2-3 slots. I might want a third Dimir Infiltrator (**), and possibly a second Ancient Excavation, since there aren't any cards in UBM that I super like, unless I add a mill theme to UB, which seems like a huge change. I'd also want to add a transmute card to U and B, and maybe do some 2 CMC build around?

Seems like it would look like this:
- Mystical Teachings
- Mystical Teachings
? Wydween

I'll have to think about it.

(*) For those who don't know, Parlor Tricks was a deck that was popular for a small amount of time. It had a Transmute engine centered around the 2 CMC slot. It used four Dimir Infiltrator and Death Denied for card advantage and to get silver bullets.

(**) Maybe, but he'd good as a Ninja enabler, a defensive creature, and a tutor, as well as being able to block early game, then ninja in for value before being tutored away <3
 
Just got the cards in the mail.

Some changes as I sleeved:
Ajani's Pridemate -> Heroes Remembered
Flamewake Phoenix -> Hell's Thunder
Colossus of Akros -> Perilous Myr

These three cards were mysteriously removed and refunded from my order, before shipping, but without notice... I've re-ordered them but used cards I've had on hand as placeholders.

Mystical Teachings x2 -> Forbidden Alchemy x2
Different CMC, more Self-Mill, still card selection

Skaab Ruinator -> Oona's Grace
No one's played it, and I don't super support it. It was to turn into Think Twice, but I thought to try this out instead.
Memory's Journey -> Ongoing Investigation
Memory's Journey -> Tracker's Instincts
Also not played, this might help the mill, and maybe add something interesting, would not be opposed to changing these.

Considerations:
Decree of Pain -> Black Sun's Zenith?
At this point, I'd consider removing Abandoned Sarcophagus?

These Rakdos cards I'm not super happy with:
Merciless Javelineer
Rakdos Guildmage
And might need a replacement, maybe another Rakdos Cackler, or one of the Flashback Spells.


Thoughts/feedback?
 
You might be right, I sort of felt like teachings didn't fit in anymore, but you're probably correct.

I think teachings can work as long as there are some good instants to fetch with it! Being able to look for either an answer or some kind of powerful "finisher" spell like a big draw spell probably is enough for me to wanna draft it.

Maybe you could cut a careful considerations for a Stroke of Genius? Both can function as a way to get a ton of cards out of your library, and Stroke also functions well in a control deck.
 
I think teachings can work as long as there are some good instants to fetch with it! Being able to look for either an answer or some kind of powerful "finisher" spell like a big draw spell probably is enough for me to wanna draft it.

Maybe you could cut a careful considerations for a Stroke of Genius? Both can function as a way to get a ton of cards out of your library, and Stroke also functions well in a control deck.


Yeah, but I'm not sure if it's worth it to support it, I fear the number of additional changes.

In response to the Stroke of Genius comment, I'm actually quite a huge fan of Careful Consideration, and I've been very against the idea of cutting my second one (you can see people have started talking about it on post 14). In addition, I've not actually tried big draw effects in blue, but I know that it's something that tends to be a problem in formats such as this one, as it makes blue just better than other colours.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Have you done any drafts IRL?

I would like to see what kind of decks appear and do well.
It is always hard to try and get a grasp of cubes of varing power levels and I am not used to one in your vein.

What was the deck that went undefeated last draft?
What was the deck that didn't win?

If you could answer these questions then it might help me (us?) get a better grasp on what your cube is doing power-level wise and can help buff certain archetypes that are struggling (as you mentioned with Mystical Teachings).
Plus I always love seeing draft reports :p
 
Have you done any drafts IRL?

I would like to see what kind of decks appear and do well.
It is always hard to try and get a grasp of cubes of varing power levels and I am not used to one in your vein.

What was the deck that went undefeated last draft?
What was the deck that didn't win?

If you could answer these questions then it might help me (us?) get a better grasp on what your cube is doing power-level wise and can help buff certain archetypes that are struggling (as you mentioned with Mystical Teachings).
Plus I always love seeing draft reports :p
I've not drafted with the changes no. I'll put a draft report when I do though.


Gb Counters from CubeTutor.com











This looks fun, was a little short of playables but not overly so

Hm... Short on playables worries me...



I've found a format I liked playing with the cube, it's based on booster wars or whatever.

At the start of the session, everyone gets a pack (15 cards) and shuffles in two lands of each basic land types. This is your (25 card) deck.

After each game, everyone gets a pack, and gets to make a deck from their pool of cards as if it were sealed. The winners of the previous round must increase their minimum deck size by 5. Repeat until you guys stop playing.

This is self-balancing, since you weaken your deck by adding more cards when you win. I ended up doing a 45 card deck with 4 packs :/. Then the next game was as follows, going first:
1. Bonesplitter
2. Ajani's Pridemate
3. EtB Tapped, Gain 1, Equip, Swing for 5
4. EtB Tapped, Gain 1, Swing for 6, which they took, Key of the City, much regret
5. Key of the City to make unblockable, Swing for 6, Cast a discounted Hollow One
They scooped.

It was a fun start.
 
I've sat and thought hard of the making of build-around cards and realized that "Dynavolt Tower" are not it.

Looking for replacement.

Bosium Strip would be the ideal card, if not for the fact that it cares about graveyard order.

Any colorless suggestions? Otherwise, I'll look at my list of colorless cards that I wanted to add.
 
Build-around?



Not right for everyone's cube, but I love this card.


What would it need to work? I don't have baubles/sac artifacts, but it could work with artifact creatures.

I finally had a (5 player) draft. I'll post more info soon, but one comment I got was that there seems to be a lack of removal, both mass and single target. Also that the removal seemed to lack in quality.

I'm curious what everyone thinks about this. The cube is sort of based on the ideas of the Penny-pincher cubes, but I might have gotten a lot less removal than them.
 
Taking a quick look at your cube: in my opinion you have more than enough mass removal.

For targeted removal, one issue might be that you have relatively few ways to deal with toughness 4+ creatures. Looks like you have 35 creatures with toughness 4+ (not counting tokens), which may be on the high side. For comparison, I run 28, and the Penny Pincher cubes which you mentioned run 25 and 29, respectively.

On top of a high number of 4+ toughness creatures, you have very few targeted removal spells that can deal with them.

White has the most options, with Condemn, Chastise x 2, and Cast Out x 2, but 3/5 are conditional on the creature attacking and 4/5 are 4+ CMC.

Black, which is usually one of the better removal colors, has only two options: Devour in Shadow (and it will cost you at least 4 life), and Murderous Compulsion (if the creature is tapped).

Red has Lightning Axe and Alchemist's Greeting. Plus Avacyn's Judgment if its Madness cost is paid and you cast it for at least 5.

In Green, Savage Punch will rarely be able to take out a 4+ toughness creature without 2-for-1ing yourself.

So that's 12 total spells that can potentially remove those 35 creatures (which are likely to be among the most powerful creatures in your cube, on average), on their own, of which 7 have moderately to severely steep conditions, and half of which will cost 4 or more to kill a 4 toughness creature.
 
Taking a quick look at your cube: in my opinion you have more than enough mass removal.

For targeted removal, one issue might be that you have relatively few ways to deal with toughness 4+ creatures. Looks like you have 35 creatures with toughness 4+ (not counting tokens), which may be on the high side. For comparison, I run 28, and the Penny Pincher cubes which you mentioned run 25 and 29, respectively.

On top of a high number of 4+ toughness creatures, you have very few targeted removal spells that can deal with them.

White has the most options, with Condemn, Chastise x 2, and Cast Out x 2, but 3/5 are conditional on the creature attacking and 4/5 are 4+ CMC.

Black, which is usually one of the better removal colors, has only two options: Devour in Shadow (and it will cost you at least 4 life), and Murderous Compulsion (if the creature is tapped).

Red has Lightning Axe and Alchemist's Greeting. Plus Avacyn's Judgment if its Madness cost is paid and you cast it for at least 5.

In Green, Savage Punch will rarely be able to take out a 4+ toughness creature without 2-for-1ing yourself.

So that's 12 total spells that can potentially remove those 35 creatures (which are likely to be among the most powerful creatures in your cube, on average), on their own, of which 7 have moderately to severely steep conditions, and half of which will cost 4 or more to kill a 4 toughness creature.


Thanks for this. I did the same thing. Looking at 5 vs 6 toughness creatures. I totally missed 4, thank you.
I'll have a look and report my thoughts.
 
Real quick:

While I do have 34 creatures with toughness 4 or greater, a great deal of them are not as "big" as what we find in the penny pincher cube.
The penny pincher cube 1.0 has 4 creatures with toughness 4 or more with less than 4 power:

Auriok Salvagers
Mnemonic Wall
Kessig Cagebreakers
Ancestral Statue

And the second one has 5:
Bishop of Rebirth
Mnemonic Wall
Graveblade Marauder
Kessig Cagebreakers
Juniper Order Ranger

I have 21.
10 with 0 power, two of which have 6 toughness rather than 4
5 with 2 power, 2 with 4 toughness, 1 with 5 and 2 with 6.
5 3/4s and a 3/5

These are the 13 others:
Mindwrack Demon
Hollow One
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Crumbling Colossus
Triskelion
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Honored Hydra
Necropolis Fiend
Havenwood Wurm
Krosan Tusker
Guardian of the Ages
Mage-Ring Responder
Colossus of Akros

Special mention to Hangarback Walker.

Now it's obvious why there is this discrepancy: I support defenders as a theme/deck.

So what comes to mind is do these pose a problem? I'm not super sure. But adding cards like Killing Glare or Searing Light could open up the rest of the removal to be used on bigger creatures without making them more vulnerable (since I run less large creatures, even if at a cursory glance they seem on average both bigger and more expensive than PPC's).

The one thing that comes to mind is that the "+1/+1 counter" deck was played last time and won both its matches. I didn't get to play it (we didn't have enough time) but it is possible this might just be a reaction to losing to it. I do feel I need more information.


Soon I'll look at the removal between the cubes
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
What would it need to work? I don't have baubles/sac artifacts, but it could work with artifact creatures.

I finally had a (5 player) draft. I'll post more info soon, but one comment I got was that there seems to be a lack of removal, both mass and single target. Also that the removal seemed to lack in quality.

I'm curious what everyone thinks about this. The cube is sort of based on the ideas of the Penny-pincher cubes, but I might have gotten a lot less removal than them.


I've been busy with work, so its been hard for me to find time to comment.

I don't really have time, unfortunatly, to put the removal suite under a microscope, but there are a few things that might help in regards to assessing removal:

1. Be very conscious of casting cost. Generally speaking, spot removal should cost less than the threats that they are removing. This is even more important, the more time efficent the threats become (ETBs etc). If a player falls behind, you don't want them to be being left behind, because they can't double spell in a turn to catch back up. This can be especially tricky with red burn spells. Often times the most interesting red burn spells are priced at 3, and in many cubes, 3cc is where you get a greater density of influencial creatures or other utility spells. This creates a squeeze at the 3cc slot, for example, that can start to artifically thin out removal options, since there is only so much that can be fit on the curve.

If you look at the PP 1.0's red removal, it has that problem, and in 2.0, I tried to address this with cards like burst lightning, or stoke. This moves the casting cost around the curve a bit more, and provides more breathing room in the draft.

2. Overly conditioned removal can artifically reduce your removal suite. This goes back to the idea that if you have too big of a power gap, people just cut out the bottom of the hierachy. If people view your removal as being overly clunky, or positioned poorly against threats, it tends to fall down the pick order, and get beat out in favor of a smaller selection of premium removal and effective threats. This means less removal makes decks.

Even if you take overly conditioned removal and sort of flatten the hierachy, you still run into problems in the actual game. This is because you get these removal dead zones, will removal is too conditioned to be leveraged effectively (or too highly costed to be sequenced effectively). The innistrad cube I made was guility of both of these faults.

Generally, if you are going to condition removal, you want it to be generally good, but maybe with a few quirks to it, that gives threats some breathing room, to prosecute a game forward, or perhaps create an incentive for more synergistic play. So for example, say we have a burn suite. We might deliberaly run lower toughness threats, but include a way to boost their toughness to make them tougher against the formats prime removal.

Also, in 2.0, there is a huge focus on discard in the grixis colors, and cards that care about graveyard density, so even if you run (say for example slaughter) and get matched up against some odd mono-black deck, you generally have the option to convert it into another card, to fuel another interaction.

The tricky thing is that the idea behind conditioned removal is to increase interaction and synergy play, not to decrease it, but thats a difficult balance to reach. The biggest benefit of running some conditioning, is that you can have normally fragile creature engine cards work effectively, without being zapped automatically for 1 mana from no where.

3. Mass removal density is very tricky, becuase in limited its essentially a board reset, before its anything else. The question there is, "how often and how easily do I want people to be able to reset my games?" The more wipes you add, the longer your games go. Also, they tend to just ruin any sort of creature based engines. Cards like Krenko, for example, because miserably less fun when matched up against 8 wog deck, and makes someone feel punished for looking for odd or interesting interactions (which people love to do), rather than just running efficient spells and zerging in.

Again, sorry for having to wait a week to respond. Hope that helps a little bit.
 
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