A deceptively bad cube

[CaptnIrony]

Apologies, Grillo. I typed the following up, and it took me about three times longer than expected, I won't be able to also answer your post today. Soon.

Here's decks from the last draft:
Along with some thoughts

Spoiler

My:

Creatures (9) 1 Judge's Familiar 1 Judge's Familiar 1 Chronomaton 1 Seeker of the Way 1 Porcelain Legionnaire 1 Chief of the Foundry 1 Geist of the Archives 1 DrainingWhlek 1 HangarbackWalker Artifacts / Enchantment (2) 1 Pacification Array 1 Sickleslicer Instants / Sorceries (12) 1 Force Spike 1 Silent Departure 1 Blessed Alliance 1 Remand 1 Unsubstatiate 1 Think Twice 1 Dissipate 1 Farm // Market 1 Cast Out 1 Dismiss 1 Spitting Image 1 Confirm Suspicions

Lands (4) 1 Dread Statuary 1 Tranquil Cove 1 Throne of the High City 1 Azorious Chancery (0)

I'd consider this guy and me to be the strongest two players in our extended magic group, but no one really plays limited. He deviated from his standard type of deck to do something "Fun" and ended up drafting around 2 Dynavolt Tower, after I had identified them as being too weak, but before I removed them.

His deck played quite poorly, beating only Al (3rd deck posted). I felt that his deck played like a control deck with too many tempo cards, and with too little ways to abuse it. In a game against me he kept bouncing/countering my stuff and tapping until I had only Wall of Blossoms, but 6 cards in hand, and at something reasonable like 6 life or so. He had a Chronomaton and a remaining Thopter from a dead Hangaback Walker. I managed to play a Cultivator of Blades, with the two 1/1 fearing bounce and the array. He then plays a Judge's Familiar, swings with the Thopter and then plays and activates Throne of the High City, his last card in hand.

Having played tempo decks quite a bit I can tell this is the point where the game ends. If he kills me now, I get the feeling that he had all the right answers all game and I couldn't answer his threats. If I survive, he feels like he just bounced my stuff to have me replay it a couple of turns later and he just delayed his loss. I'm wondering if being the Monarch will help him out.

I swing with my board. We trade the Cultivator to the Judge's Familar and I lose one of the buffed tokens to the now 4/4 Chronomaton. I ninjutsu in Throat Slitter and he falls to 18, loses his Chonomaton. I cast Mindwrack Demon. He now has a 1/1 flyer on the field, no cards in hand and I am drawing two cards a turn, with an already large hand. He doesn't recover.

He mentioned he doesn't like the play patterns created by Icy Manipulator and Pacification Array, and he also asked me if I had removed all the good removal in the latest update.

Me:

Creatures (12) 1 Bloodsoaked Champion 1 Bloodsoaked Champion 1 Experiment One 1 Bloodghast 1 Resilient Khenra 1 Deepcavern Imp 1 Mindwrack Demon 1 Lodestone Golem 1 Epitaph Golem 1 Throat Slitter 1 Throat Slitter 1 Cultivator of Blades Artifacts / Enchantment (3) 1 Grafted Wargear 1 Moldervine Cloak 1 Icy Manipulator Instants / Sorceries (7) 1 Savage Punch 1 Stangling Soot 1 Dread Return 1 Biting Rain 1 Sudden Reclamation 1 Spider Spawning 1 Spider Spawning

Lands (4) 1 Terramorphic Expance 1 Evolving Wilds 1 Golgari Rot Farm 1 Golgari Rot Farm (0)

I kind of fumbled in the first few picks, thinking about UB Ninjas, to WB Blink, and finally settling on BGu Self-Mill when I notice the first of the two Spider Spawning had wheeled in P1. I notice I'm fighting for cards with someone since a large number of the ones I consider fairly narrow don't come back, even in fairly strong packs (Obsessive Skinner is the one that brought me to that conclusion). I ended up cutting blue.

Here are the notables from my sideboard:

Spoiler

Wingcrafter
Augury Owl
Doorkeeper
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Wall of Blossom
Lingering Souls
Dimir Infiltrator
Staff of Nin
Signal Pest
Warmonger's Chariot
Sylvok Lifestaff
Simic Growth Chamber

Wondered heavily about splashing blue, and also about the Warmonger's Chariot. Equipment rocks with recurable creatures. Maybe I messed up.

I wanted to do an aggro deck with the Spider Spawnings and Throat Slitters as curve topers, but didn't get quite enough creatures, so did a bit of aggro-midrange.

Al:

Creatures (14) 1 Memnite 1 Inventor's Apprentice 1 Inventor's Apprentice 1 Court Homunculus 1 Signal Pest 1 Weapons Trainer 1 Seeker of the Way 1 Abbot of Keral Keep 1 Thermo-Alchemist 1 Mentor of the Meek 1 Chief of the Foundry 1 Master Splicer 1 Stormfront Riders 1 Sensor Splicer Artifacts / Enchantment (3) 1 Pacification Array 1 Oketra's Monument 1 Rusted Relic Instants / Sorceries (4) 1 Firebolt 1 Rally the Peasants 1 Start // Finish 1 Increasing Devotion

Lands (6) 1 Orzhov Basilica 1 Orzhov Basilica 1 Boros Garrison 1 Boros Garrison 1 Scoured Barrens 1 Wind-Scarred Crag (0)

I didn't super know him, and when we started drafting I realized he didn't quite know enough magic for me to be comfortable drafting with him. I think my fears were justified, as he played one match and then would rather watch than play for the rest of the afternoon. He ended up playing two, losing both. I don't think he super likes magic and because of how the invitation went I'm not sure he was told we'd be drafting, I think he expected board games. I felt bad for the poor dude.

Ay:

Creatures (8) 1 Rakdos Guildmage 1 Dimir Infiltrator 1 Bloodwater Entity 1 Flamewake Phoenix 1 Wydween, the Biting Gale 1 Merciless Javelineer 1 Bedlam Reveler 1 Necropolis Fiend Artifacts / Enchantment (1) 1 Tapestry of the Ages Instants / Sorceries (14) 1 Faithless Looting 1 Ulcerate 1 Lightning Axe 1 Cathartic Reunion 1 Avacyn's Judgment 1 Murderous Compulsion 1 Recoup 1 Sweltering Suns 1 Fiery Temper 1 Fires of Undeath 1 Scrap 1 Ancient Excavation 1 Black Sun's Zenith 1 Startstorm

Lands (5) 1 Dimir Acqueduct 1 Dimir Acqueduct 1 Izzet Boilerworks 1 Temple of Epiphany 1 Temple of Malice (0)

My first opponent. I played vs him, got a bit flooded lost the first game, and felt like my deck was unplayable garbage and dreaded the fact that I'd be piloting it for the next few hours. I did recur my Bloodsoaked Champion quite a bit though. Second game I got even more flooded, but had a Bloodghast. I knew I had to stall him, which wasn't impossible with his lack of creatures. I played very aggressively with Bloodghast and he started keeping one creature back to block. Between that, and the times I drew my removal spell or whatnot, I managed to keep myself alive at single digit life total. One hilarious thing is that he groaned when I dropped my 7 or 8th land in that many turns to recur Bloodghast. I told him I'd also prefer drawing something else. I ended up winning with 2-3 small creatures, Grafted Wargear and the Moldervine Cloak.

Game three started similarly, between my opening 7 and two next draws, with the two bouncelands I had something like 8 land drops to make. I took game three after we spent a large number of turns doing a dance where I'd dredge my Moldervine Cloak, cast it on Bloodsoaked Champion, swing into his Burning-Fist Minotaur, which he would pump with the card he drew to kill my attacker, which I'd bring back. This became a sort of a race. I think we were both at 4-6 life, him drawing one card a turn to get out, and me trying to dredge into another card that might help. I stopped when I got a Spider Spawning and enough creatures to break through. I had three cards left, two of which were the other Spider Spawning, and Bloodsoaked Champion.

So:

Creatures (13) 1 Winding Constrictor 1 Winding Constrictor 1 Merfolk Branchwalker 1 Obsessive Skinner 1 Pale Rider of Trostad 1 Rishkar, Peema Renegade 1 Corcanura 1 Reyhan, Last of the Abzan 1 Renegade Krasis 1 Flesh Carver 1 Wall of Limbs 1 Krosan Tusker 1 Guardian of the Ages Artifacts / Enchantment (3) 1 Hardened Scales 1 Bonesplitter 1 Key to the City Instants / Sorceries (7) 1 Ulcerate 1 Prepare // Fight 1 Prepare // Fight 1 Devour in Shadow 1 Dusk // Dawn 1 Chastise 1 Chastise

Lands (17) 17 Basics (because non-basics are a trap) (0)

Didn't play him. But he won against both my first opponent Ay above and the guy who didn't know magic. He felt the removal was weak and in the matchup, Ay had a hard time clearing his creatures. He mentioned that one should not take non-basics in this cube as they seem really weak, and that this version of the cube was way better than the last (he was quite vocal with his dislike of the last one, in major part due to its "incredible complexity", but most people just felt he was winging. He is the other guy in the playgroup with a cube. I've mentioned it before, as a sort of an "I know this exists and I don't want it". We have fairly different playstyles, so I don't think his feedback is super relevant to me. His cube and mine have basically opposite philosophies.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I had a little time to look over the cube, and started to consider doing a more indepth analysis of the removal, but paused myself after reading your report.

For the record, I do think this is perhaps a bit light on removal density, and not quite efficient enough. I also think some of the threats are a bit too hardened for the removal as is (Honored Hydra!). The removal is conditioned enough against threats where we are going to get sequences that are fairely resource intensive, which isn't a bad thing necessarily, but can be frustrating if we're playing from behind, or have a deck that struggles to assemble resource density in the first place, or we placed a low priority on removal in the draft.

Removal engines are really interesting. Some of these removal pieces I remember from the innistrad theme cube, where I was interested in creating removal engines, but that largely failed. The PP 2.0 had a better engine structure, but it was more focused on value generation, than creating removal engines, so this is kind of unexplored territory.

Your player's expectation and reactions are probably more important, however. Its perfectly plausable that you could be 100% objectively correct with this removal suite being good, but it dosen't really matter, because reality is running contrary to the movie playing in your drafters' heads, and they are always right.

In the short term I would probably just up the quality and density of removal, to make the pick order clearer and more forgiving, so at least this way we know you're not going to be losing people. Than we can take a stab at how to build removal engines using pieces that players won't look at it with excessive skepticism, or be confused by.

Edit: Sentence Structure

 

[CaptnIrony]

I'm sorry again, Grillo, between today and tomorrow one evening is groceries, and the other is replying to you, but for now, draft report of saturday:

[3-0] Me - BR Control
This is me, cube extraordinaire!
[2-1] Ay - BGw +1/+1 Midrange
He often plays 5c control, and played Grixis control in the last report.
[2-1] My - WB Artifact Aristocrat Agro
He plays modern, and I consider him a very strong magic player. He played the UW deck last time.
[2-1] Rw - UB Ninjas
He is the one from the group that I think knows the 2nd most about cubes, and has a pauper one. This was my first time meeting him.
[1-2] Sf - WG Lifegain Inevitability
She's played with us before, but is the person here with the second least experience.
[1-2] Js - URg Prowess Defender
He plays modern and pauper.
[1-2] Ah - WR Artifact and Golem uhh... Big?
First time drafting the cube, she's drafting Sg's cube before, but is the player with the least experience. She was sort of my +1, and is obviously a Timmy, but she had fun. I'm glad she enjoyed herself.
[0-3] Sg - BGw +1/+1 Counter Lifegain
The other guy from the group with a cube, he played the +1/+1 counter deck last time.

[3-0] Me:

BR Control

Creatures (8) 1 Perilous Myr 1 Burning-Fist Minotaur 1 Big Game Hunter 1 Merciless Javalineer 1 Mindwrack Demon 1 Heart-Piercer Manticore 1 Twins of Marauder Estate 1 Hollow One Artifacts / Enchantments (7) 1 Pacification Array 2 Key to the City 4 Icy Manipulator Instants / Sorceries (12) 1 Ulcerate 1 Firebolt 1 Lightning Axe 1 Avacyn's Judgement 1 Strangling Soot 1 Fiery Temper 1 Ichor Slick 1 Sweltering Suns 1 Biting Rain 1 Alchemist's Greeting 1 Decree of Pain 1 Black Sun's Zenith

Lands (5) 1 Geier Reach Sanitarium 1 Ash Barrens 1 Temple of Malice 1 Boros Garrison 1 Rakdos Carnarium (0)

[2-1] Ay:

BGw +1/+1 Midrange

Creatures (17) 1 Bloodsoaked Champion 1 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk 1 Carrion Feeder 1 Experiment One 1 Resilient Khenra 1 Merfolk Branchwalker 1 Zalaport Cutthroat 1 Obsessive Skinner 1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped 1 Splinterfright 1 Rishkar, Peema Renegade 1 Crocanura 1 Reyhan, Last of the Abzan 1 Vital Spicer 1 Vulturous Aven 1 Kessig Cagebreakers 1 Krosan Tusker Artifacts / Enchantments (2) 1 Contagion Clasp 1 Cast Out Instants / Sorceries (6) 1 Murderous Compulsion 1 Lingering Souls 1 Start // Finish 1 Chastise 1 Dread Return 1 Spider Spawning

Lands (9) 1 Blasted Landscape 1 Dread Statuary 1 Evolving Wilds 1 Temple of Malady 1 Jungle Hollow 1 Golgari Rot Farm 1 Orzhov Basilica 1 Temple of Plenty 1 Selesnya Sanctuary (0)

[2-1] My:

WB Artifact Aristocrat Agro

Creatures (18) 1 Signal Pest 1 Signal Pest 1 Court Homunculus 1 Court Homunculus 1 Bloodsoaked Champion 1 Mardu Woe-Reaper 1 Dregscape Zombie 1 Bloodghast 1 Bloodghast 1 Pale Rider of Trostad 1 Cartel Aristocrat 1 Cartel Aristocrat 1 Porcelain Legionnaire 1 Sickleslicer 1 Flesh Carver 1 Mentor of the Meek 1 Falkenrath Noble 1 Hangarback Walker Artifacts / Enchantments (3) 1 Bonesplitter 1 Oketra's Monument 1 Blasting Station Instants / Sorceries (3) 1 Farm // Market 1 Rally the Peasants 1 Fumigate

Lands (3) 1 Scoured Barrens 1 Temple of Silence 1 Orzhov Basilica (0)

[2-1] Rw:

UB Ninjas

Creatures (20) 1 Judge's Familiar 1 Skullsnatcher 1 Dimir Infiltrator 1 Dimir Infiltrator 1 Perilous Myr 1 Warkite Marauder 1 Spellweaver Eternal 1 Fogwalker 1 Mistblade Shinobi 1 Mistblade Shinobi 1 Aerial Guide 1 Yahenni, Undying Partisan 1 Bonded Fetch 1 Ninja of the Deep Hours 1 Ninja of the Deep Hours 1 Whirler Rogue 1 Wydwen, the Biting Gale 1 Throat Slitter 1 Throat Slitter 1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni Artifacts / Enchantments (0) Instants / Sorceries (3) 1 Think Twice 1 Oona's Grace 1 Crippling Fatigue

Lands (2) 1 Temple of Deceite 1 Dimir Aqueduct (0)

[1-2] Sf:

WG Lifegain Inevitability

Creatures (11) 1 Ornithopter 1 Memnite 1 Mardu Woe-Reaper 1 Seeker of the Way 1 Kor Skyfisher 1 Rumunap Excavator 1 Carven Caryatid 1 Solemn Simulacrum 1 Havenwood Wurm 1 Maul Splicer 1 Guardian of the Ages Artifacts / Enchantments (9) 1 Sylvok Lifestaff 1 Pacification Array 1 Elixir of Immortality 1 Pristine Talisman 1 Well of Lost Dreams 1 Growing Ranks 1 Angelic Accord 1 Staff of Nin 1 Contagion Engine Instants / Sorceries (5) 1 Timely Reinforcements 1 Gnaw to the Bone 1 Chastise 1 Increasing Devotion 1 Spitting Image

Lands (2) 1 Simic Growth Chamber 1 Blossoming Sands (0)

[1-2] Js:

URg Prowess Defender

Creatures (20) 1 Wingcrafter 1 Monastery Swiftspear 1 Monastery Swiftspear 1 Groundskeeper 1 Thermo-Alchemist 1 Doorkeeper 1 Augury Owl 1 Abbot of Keral Keep 1 Stormchaser Mage 1 Nibilis of Dusk 1 Bloodwater Entity 1 Flamewake Phoenix 1 Rage Nimbus 1 Axbane Guardian 1 Jeskai Windscout 1 Junktroller 1 Wing Splicer 1 Vent Sentinel 1 Vent Sentinel 1 Bedlam Reveler Artifacts / Enchantments (1) 1 Warmonger's Chariot Instants / Sorceries (12) 1 Silent Departure 1 Silent Departure 1 Faithless Looting 1 Force Spike 1 Abrade 1 Pit Fight 1 Remand 1 Remand 1 Fires of Undeath 1 Firespout 1 Mystic Retrieval 1 Starstorm

Lands (2) 1 Swiftwater Cliffs 1 Izzet Boilerworks (0)

[1-2] Ah:

WR Artifact and Golem uhh... Big?

Creatures (19) 1 Weapons Trainer 1 Whitemane Lion 1 Wall of Torches 1 Thermo-Alchemist 1 Wall of Omens 1 Bygone Bishop 1 Stonecloaker 1 Chief of the Foundry 1 Chief of the Foundry 1 Lodestone Golem 1 Master Splicer 1 Master Splicer 1 Crumbling Colossus 1 Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer 1 Razor Hippogriff 1 Stormfront Rider 1 Epitaph Golem 1 Triskelion 1 Mage-Ring Responder Artifacts / Enchantments (2) 1 Leonin Scimitar 1 Rusted Relic Instants / Sorceries (2) 1 Prepare // Fight 1 Scrap

Lands (3) 1 Temple of Triump 1 Gruul Turf 1 Selesnya Sanctuary (0)

[0-3] Sg:

BGw +1/+1 Counter Lifegain

Creatures (17) 1 Carrion Feeder 1 Experiment One 1 Chronomaton 1 Chronomaton 1 Merfolk Branchwalker 1 Duskhunter Bat 1 Ajani's Pridemate 1 Ajani's Pridemate 1 Winding Constrictor 1 Winding Constrictor 1 Wall of Limbs 1 Frontier Mastodon 1 Aven Riftwatcher 1 Renegade Krasis 1 Bloodbond Vampire 1 Cultivator of Blades 1 Colossus of Akros Artifacts / Enchantments (2) 1 Hardened Scales 1 Boompile Instants / Sorceries (4) 1 Innocent Blood 1 Savage Punch 1 Devour in Shadow 1 Prepare // Fight

Lands (2) 1 Terramorphic Expanse 1 Arch of Orazca (0)

Round 1
Me - Js [2-0]
Ay - Ah [1-0]
Sf - Rw [2-0]
My - Sg [2-0]

Round 2
Me - Sf [2-1]
Ay - My [2-0]
Rw - Ah [2-1]
Js - Sg [2-1]

Round 3
Me - Ay [2-1]
My - Sf [2-0]
Rw - Js [2-1]
Ah - Sg [2-0]

My matches:

Round 1:
My opponent originally had a prowess deck. It seemed a bit weak, and rarely had more than one creature on the field. It was easy to keep my life total high before stabilizing. After the first game, he added the defenders, but I think forgot to take out the prowess and I think accidentally made a 50 card deck, with 17 lands (he complained about mana, and I noticed his list contained 33 non-lands while typing). Nothing worth sharing stood out. He mentioned that Monastery Swiftspear sucks in the cube and is a wasted pick. He says he really enjoyed the defenders archetype, and he also said that there's no point playing 3 colours in the cube as two colored decks easily get enough playables.

Round 2:
By playing beside the deck in round one, and hearing the exasperated opponent, I had an idea what I was facing. The deck was a lifegain deck that just took over late game (drawing three cards a turn, and intermittently making Angels from Angelic Accord, often from the Elixir of Immortality, and populating with Growing Ranks). I felt my late-game was no match for it, and assumed I didn't stand a chance pre-sideboarding. My intuition proved to be correct. I did better than I thought I would, and held out until she drew maybe 60% of her deck of Well of Lost Dreams, after reshuffling the graveyard in twice, and actually managed to get 12 power on the board, and got her down to mid teens while tapping down her threats, but then she dropped Contagion Engine and proliferated and I scooped.

I knew I was the beatdown and boarded in Quicksmith Genius, Tymaret, the Murder King, Olivia's Dragoon, Grafted Wargear and boarded out my 4 wipes. I mulled to 6 but drew decently, and rushed down as hard as I could. Turn 3 Carven Caryatid and turn 4 Timely Reinforcement stalled, but I managed to get through with horribly inefficient trades.

For game three our hands are both worse, and I use one my Alchemist's Greeting on the target of her Chastise, but I manage to pull through again from decent draws on my part, and I guess worse luck on hers.

In none of the games did I draw the Tymaret, the Murder King, Olivia's Dragoon, but the Quicksmite Genius did a ton of work with both the aggro and the looting.

Round 3:
This one was an interesting one. I learned I play poorly with Decree of Pain. I've got a tendency to let the opponent get a few more hits in effort to draw more cards off it, which punished me hard when I cast it and realized my opponent can just sac his whole board to his Carrion Feeder (damn, I suck). I did pretty well at trading 1 for 1, and stalling to get the most value out of my sweepers, often by sacrificing one of my precious few creatures to it. For part of the game, I'd Icy Manipulator his Orzhov Basilica during upkeep to keep him off 2nd Black and White. He played a Splinterfright and between it, my removal, my tapping, and Geier Reach Sanitarium, I milled him out with 3 cards left in my library, on the turn he'd swing for lethal.

I only boarded in 1 card: Abandoned Sarcophagus, as I felt I was still the control deck, but I had a hard time with all his value (I got lucky in managing to get him to play the flashback on Spider Spawning before sweeping, by playing a creature, tapping, and taking one round of hits from it in game one). I think I mulliganed my first hand and ended up with a shaky but keepable 6. He started off strong, while I stumbled on mana. I realized how backbreaking Reyhan, Last of the Abzan was. I had originally assumed it only gifted its own counters, but found out it did any other creature's. I killed his first creature, couldn't kill Reyhan without his other out of reach of the rest of my removal. At 12 I cast a risky Mindwrack Demon in effort to stem the tide, which ate a Start // Finish. His board looks like this: Reyhan, Last of the Abzan, Carrion Feeder, and Start // Finish token while mine is empty. At 6 I cast my Heart-Piercer Manticore, which eats a removal spell. I misplay and cast Avacyn's Judgment dealing 1 to each of his small ones, without noticing I was at 6 mana. He sacs the Token to the Carrion feeder, saving it and I realize I could have instead first cast Bitting Rain, then used the Avacyn's Judgment on the 4/4 Reyhan after. I decide the next best source of action is to cast Merciless Javelineer and use its ability along with a madness removal spell to exacties clear is board, after getting my mana back. He Contagion Clasp's it, proliferate, and I scoop (2nd time today to proliferate). I'm apologizing, I'm probably mis-rememering this though. The important points from my end: he did well, I stumbled on mana, got really low, used my best cards as ways to stem the tide while they ate removal, before finally mis-playing and being unable to clear his board.

Game three went better. I got one of my tappers. I cast a Mindwrack Demon which milled my Decree of Pain, before eating removal. I spent a turn casting Abandoned Sarcophagus and taking a hit to 6, but just cast the Decree next turn drawing a few. I started racing with Hollow One while he'd deal 1 or such a turn, since I could tap his bigger stuff. With that and Key to the City I managed to get him before he got me.

 

[Heymaker]

Out of curiosity, CaptnIrony, how long does it take you to put these deck lists together after a draft? Been thinking about doing it for my drafts, but feel like it'd take ages to manually enter everything. I've buylisted lots of cards before and seems like it takes forever.

 

[CaptnIrony]

Out of curiosity, CaptnIrony, how long does it take you to put these deck lists together after a draft? Been thinking about doing it for my drafts, but feel like it'd take ages to manually enter everything. I've buylisted lots of cards before and seems like it takes forever.

Sorting the decks into their card types per cmc is fairly quick, but I do that while doing other things.

As for the actual typing? Each deck might take me about (lemme check... 2 minutes and 53 seconds). 5 minutes per deck might make sense, including the sorting, and the formatting (which is actually the worst part).

Heymaker's deck

Heymakers: (23) 1 Whitemane Lion 1 Insult // Injury 1 Chief of the Foundry 1 Master Splicer 1 Temple of Mystery 1 Mnemonic Wall 1 Glade Watcher 1 Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer 1 Razor Hippogriff 1 Ravenous Bloodseeker 1 Bloodfell Caves 1 Burning-Fist Minotaur 1 Flame Jab 1 Scrap 1 Rally the Peasants 1 Temple of Abadon 1 Temple of Triumph 1 Gruul Turf 1 Big Game Hunter 1 Doomed Traveler 1 Thermo-Alchemist 1 Chief of the Foundry 1 Stormbind (0)

EDIT: I also just found out that the guy who got 2nd last draft played 15 lands.

 

[CaptnIrony]

Ok Grillo, now that I've digested it, and played it again (this time I think with fewer issues with removal), but 0-3 Sg (+1/+1 counter lifegain) did express that his games vs 2-1 My (WB Artifact Aristocrat Aggro) were very one-sided, which may be what has been mentioned about playing from behind. Between feedback here, new cards, and looking at the play, I have a few cuts in mind, and while doing so, I am trying to keep the removal suite in mind.

I also worry about aggro being good enough, although looking above, the deck that placed 2nd, that I called midrange, ran 15 lands, and played a ton of lower CMC creatures, which might make it count as an aggro deck, or a mistake that didn't end up being punished through small sample size.

I'm curious what you mean by removal engines (might just be Burning Vengeance-like or Stormbind) but also intrigued.

Also, in regards to taking input from the group, I've been discussing with them what my thoughts on it were and what future changes might look like. Someone said this:
"let's draft again before [CaptnIrony] redesigns the whole thing"

People seem happy with it. In the last two drafts, I've had people mention in the following days how they really wanted to draft it again soon.

Here are some things that came to mind:
Geier Reach Sanitarium or Drowned Temple -> Mage-Ring Network (I'd want MRN in)
Reyhan, Last of the Abzan, which seems a bit too strong -> Shambling Shell ? I'd want a GB card to add.
Innocent Blood, Dread Return -> Vicious Offering, Tragic Slip
Merciless Javelineer -> Cut // Ribbons ? I don't super like the Javelineer, and this would be extra removal and a card that can be cast fromt he graveyard. I'm worried about the X game ender. I'd be fine with another Strangling Soot though.
??? -> Lightning Axe I'd like to add another.
Honored Hydra -> Splinterfright 2

M19:
Faithless Looting -> Dismissive Pyromancer
Chronomaton 2 -> Meteor Golem
??? -> Suspicious Bookcase
Jeskai Windscout -> Aven Wind Mage
Nibilis of Dusk-> Aven Wind Mage

 

[CaptnIrony]

While writing the above, I felt I had surprisingly little to say, so I'll try again now, and just go through my thoughts, rather than the results, since I always like reading other's thoughts. I feel aggro/tempo decks might be too weak. And there's been talk about removal being too rare / narrow. This might be a thing that can be fixed with a few (read less than 5) card swaps or not I'm not yet sure. So I'm planning on making incremental changes, with a few cards at a time, and meet the group halfway, as they get used to the cube. This'll be our new meta.

I have a weird relationship with removal. I play almost always creatureless decks, or try to avoid them as much as I can. People have mentioned that it's weird that the cube is creature based, considering it was mine (I realized I'm ok saying it's my cube, but saying it's the cube I made feels bad because of everyone who's had a part in this) I think they expected a budget Vintage cube or something. I am quite wary of how "20 Removal, 12 Card Advantage, 4 Win Cons, and 24 Lands" my decks turn into, and took steps against those coming together in number that might make matchups between those possible. I want games to be fun and interactive, and hopefully not feeling like they drag on after a given party has won. Removal allowed me to tune this. Here's what I wrote in my old "MTG Cube.txt" file that kept the notes, spread over multiple cube idea, and a few months:

Removal:
Conditional, Guard duty is good for control, not agro, Make removal conditional, or expensive with an upside that show the color's [part of the color pie? I didn't finish this sentence] (expensive in mana but with lifegain for white, expensive in life, but cheap mana for black, Green has tricks, Red has cheaper but ramping burn (1 mana 2, 2 mana 3, 3 mana 4, so on))

White:
Conditional Removal:
Either Good for Agro or Control, very conditional, or over-costed hard removal with additional effect (lifegain)

Black
Conditional Removal:
Removal is either conditional, good for aggro or control, or hard, but with big drawback, like lots of life loss

Red
Conditional Removal:
Removal is Efficient, but mostly for low toughness creatures. High toughness creatures require X spells. Can exile.

Green
Conditional Removal:
Enchantment Removal, Removal that gives creatures, or Trick Removal (Deathtouch Flash), Deathtouch Creatures as removal, Removal for control, not aggro

Lack of enchantment/artifact removal
No straightforward enchantment/artifact removal
Creature Removal: Narrow or Good, Tempo vs Value

White:
Removal
Tempo: Restrict on Attack or Defense (very conditional), or give opponent something
Value: Expensive, but with advantage, like Chastise
Artifact // Enchant Removal
Mass Removal

Blue
Removal
Counters
Bounce
Mass Bounce

Black
Removal
Tempo: With drawback, conditional
Value: 2 for 1, Flashback, Cantrip, or else?
Mass

Red
Discard/Madness:
Tempo: Free/Cheap on Mana Discard, Madness cards that cost 1-2 than CMC for effect. Aggresive Creatures or Removal
Value: Better Effects for discard, more expensive madness cost, additional bonuses, looking for CA.
Self Discard
Removal
Burn, X spells? Exile?
Mass Burn
Artifact Destruction

Green
Conditional Removal:
Enchantment + Artifact Removal
Creature based removal: Fight, Flash Deathtouch

I've felt it necessary to restrict it a bit, and not jam in Magic's greatest hits ala Swords to Plowshare and Path to Exile.

Tempo and Value were how I separated decks, and removal was to be made for one or the other, with a bit of overlap, much in the same way that creatures are. This, however, would probably take more card slots than I have available. But I still think of this. Lightning Axe is a perfect example IMO. As a 1 mana, discard a card cost deal 5, it's an incredibly strong, if costly piece of removal, killing anything in the cube that can be played for 6 mana or less, barring the Jungle Barrier, Junk Troller (so, the most control-ey of decks). But, this is not an efficient trade, seeing as you pay 2 cards to their 1. This is good purely for Tempo, in Tempo decks that want to get ahead in tempo before being flooded in value, or in Value decks that need to temporarily lose value, to gain a bit in Tempo. Then, as the game progresses, and the mana/cards get more plentiful, players get the option of spending a card they can afford to lose: their 7th land; some 1 mana creature; even better whatever madness spell they can now afford to play in conjunction. Eventually, culminating in paying the full amount, cause you can afford the tempo hit.

Vicious Offering and Tragic Split are cards that I'd hope fit in the same vein:

Unkicked Vicious Offering is already a pretty respectable removal spell. Tempo decks would get the choice of saccing one of their creatures in effort to go through a big blocker, giving up some tempo, while control decks would get the option to give up a card (value) to clear out something at a cheaper cost, while mana is strained.

Tragic Slip is a bit different. I am not a huge fan of the -1/-1, which seems a bit weak, nor do I like the fact that it kills every creature in the cube, except maybe, hilariously, the Mirror-Mad Phantasm, which is already weak to the -1/-1. In a tempo deck, they do the same thing, letting you lose a creature of yours to clear out something big, although you have less control over what you lose, since you'll probably have to send creatures in the red zone to do so, leading to keeping your good ones back delaying your gameplan, or risking them. It could work as a way to punish Value decks removing your cards, but this doesn't feel super good. For Value decks, once you're ahead, this makes you a bit more ahead. For one more mana, if you can already remove one of their creatures, you can also remove their best one, which adds a huge tempo swing. This seems to be an early game win more card for Value, and a poor tempo card for Tempo. However, this seems like one of those points where I get the option of going against my preconceived notions, which are probably what directed my cube towards the low/bad removal state I'm in now.

I'd like two Vicious Offerings, but I'm wondering if Tragic Slip might mellow out the removal, in a good way.

EDIT: I had cut Never // Return because it seemed a bit strong. Crippling Fatigue replaced it, but seems weak. Does Never // Return seem closer to the right power level? Sever the Bloodline is about in the middle in between them, would that be too weak?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Really good post. I liked it quite a bit.

Tempo and Value were how I separated decks, and removal was to be made for one or the other, with a bit of overlap, much in the same way that creatures are. This, however, would probably take more card slots than I have available. But I still think of this. Lightning Axe is a perfect example IMO. As a 1 mana, discard a card cost deal 5, it's an incredibly strong, if costly piece of removal, killing anything in the cube that can be played for 6 mana or less, barring the Jungle Barrier, Junk Troller (so, the most control-ey of decks). But, this is not an efficient trade, seeing as you pay 2 cards to their 1. This is good purely for Tempo, in Tempo decks that want to get ahead in tempo before being flooded in value, or in Value decks that need to temporarily lose value, to gain a bit in Tempo. Then, as the game progresses, and the mana/cards get more plentiful, players get the option of spending a card they can afford to lose: their 7th land; some 1 mana creature; even better whatever madness spell they can now afford to play in conjunction. Eventually, culminating in paying the full amount, cause you can afford the tempo hit.

This is really smart and well thought out. It’s a 100% logical framework, and makes perfect sense.

However, one thing that I learned--painfully--was that this doesn’t necessarily mean anything to a drafter. They're going to take whatever you give them, and run off with it in whatever direction they choose to, and their interpretation (even if it’s wrong) is the only one that really matters. Lave axe will end up in all sorts of weird places, and the question is: “how much damage will this cause in the wrong deck and how likely is the wrong deck going to occur”, more than “how good will it be in the average deck or the best deck.” Even worse, many of their card evaluations are going to be influenced more by weird biases—card art, past formats the card was in, their last draft etc., than the type of reasonable theory you laid out above.

So...

EDIT: I had cut Never // Return because it seemed a bit strong. Crippling Fatigue replaced it, but seems weak. Does Never // Return seem closer to the right power level? Sever the Bloodline is about in the middle in between them, would that be too weak?

At this point I would just jam Never // Return. It has a reasonable reputation from limited/constructed, is good everywhere, and they may draw unfounded parallels with murder and hero’s downfall that will bias them towards seeing it in a positive light, which means it should start out higher up the pick order.

It also will probably make them feel listened to, and that you’re improving the format based on their recommendations, which is very important. Those relationships are what maintain the cube and keep people coming back.

Meanwhile, it moves at sorcery speed, which is really quite clunky, but has a value aspect to it from the graveyard end. It should fit reasonably well within your tempo/value structure. Everyone should win.

Sever is a truly great card, but I’ve had people struggle with evaluating it or slotting it into their decks. 4cc spot removal can be confusing for people, and it doesn’t have a great reputation outside of its limited format. I would be very hesitant slotting it in at this time.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Did a draft, deck came out looking fine.

G/R Golems from CubeTutor.com

My 2cents, the removal was there, but I can how someone can fall into a drafting trap. Its easy to get carried away with drafting sweet interactions, and kind of downplaying or missing removal when it shows up.

This can come from two sources:

1. If i've drafted other formats, and I'm used to there being a lot more removal in draft, so I think I can get away with passing it (you can't).
2. If i'm used to removal being of a certain quality, so I evaluate it wrongly, put it lower down the pick order, get carried away with drafting sweet synergies, than end up jamming insult // injury for the shock.

If I end up going down either one of those 2 paths, I can end up with a fun looking deck (this kind of graveyardy golem/burning vengence deck), but its going to be hard for me to really advance a game past blockers.

And in the format there is a defenders matter theme, so there are a lot of hardened targets that are tough to deal with. You can see that here with the double vital splicers making a bunch of golems regenerating, and I have a little bit of the defenders matters theme, and I have graveyard recurrsion, which means that those hardened targets can come back for more. Its going to be very easy for me to overwhelm the removal suite of a lot of decks in general, and if its a deck that went light on removal in the draft (say 2-3 pieces) its going to be pretty boring once the battlefield stagnates.

I'm guessing thats where a lot of your complaints are coming from: you have a very strong defensive posture, and its easy to accidently draft a deck that just struggles to overcome those positions.

I really like this deck, however, and would love to jam it. This would be very fun, and grindy, with a lot of cool interactions.

I would probably cut the two savage punches for double ambush viper. Viper is effectively a removal spell that has a lot of healthy synergies with graveyard interactions, creature buffs, and ninjas. Savage punch has some odd anti-synergy with the defender's theme. Blossoming defense/vines are also better forms of awkward removal, however, those will put further strain on your current removal suite, and are maybe bad here as a result. Champion of lambholt is also really good at pushing people through, and maybe worth considering.

 

[CaptnIrony]

Did a draft, deck came out looking fine.

G/R Golems from CubeTutor.com

My 2cents, the removal was there, but I can how someone can fall into a drafting trap. Its easy to get carried away with drafting sweet interactions, and kind of downplaying or missing removal when it shows up.

This can come from two sources:

1. If i've drafted other formats, and I'm used to there being a lot more removal in draft, so I think I can get away with passing it (you can't).
2. If i'm used to removal being of a certain quality, so I evaluate it wrongly, put it lower down the pick order, get carried away with drafting sweet synergies, than end up jamming insult // injury for the shock.

If I end up going down either one of those 2 paths, I can end up with a fun looking deck (this kind of graveyardy golem/burning vengence deck), but its going to be hard for me to really advance a game past blockers.

And in the format there is a defenders matter theme, so there are a lot of hardened targets that are tough to deal with. You can see that here with the double vital splicers making a bunch of golems regenerating, and I have a little bit of the defenders matters theme, and I have graveyard recurrsion, which means that those hardened targets can come back for more. Its going to be very easy for me to overwhelm the removal suite of a lot of decks in general, and if its a deck that went light on removal in the draft (say 2-3 pieces) its going to be pretty boring once the battlefield stagnates.

I'm guessing thats where a lot of your complaints are coming from: you have a very strong defensive posture, and its easy to accidently draft a deck that just struggles to overcome those positions.

I really like this deck, however, and would love to jam it. This would be very fun, and grindy, with a lot of cool interactions.

I would probably cut the two savage punches for double ambush viper. Viper is effectively a removal spell that has a lot of healthy synergies with graveyard interactions, creature buffs, and ninjas. Savage punch has some odd anti-synergy with the defender's theme. Blossoming defense/vines are also better forms of awkward removal, however, those will put further strain on your current removal suite, and are maybe bad here as a result. Champion of lambholt is also really good at pushing people through, and maybe worth considering.

A few things, it worries me that you ended up with so many (4?) themes together in the same deck, but I'm also glad this could work out. It might be because of the drafting AI, but this gives me the impression I don't have enough cards of each theme to fully support the decks I'd want to.

I'm going to take an aside here to explain something. I bassed part of this cube on Hearthstone. I liked that in Hearthstone, you'd decide what type of deck you'd make, and then fit in engines that push that gameplan. A value deck can play 3 different styles in the same deck, but they all push value. This is a bit harder for tempo due to color requirements and whatnot, but what can you do.

I'm glad this worked out for you though. I know the defenders deck is in the cube, but I felt it was a bit of an outlier, and since it plays along different lines than other decks, I was worried of pushing it too hard. Also any deck, vs the defenders one abandons its normal gameplan for a "I'll play your game, we'll both play slow, and I'll go over your head, hopefully before you kill me"plan which makes in my mind the Defenders deck the slowest Tempo archetype ever. It blanks your early plays and makes you waste a bunch of mana by blocking your four mana card with their two mana card. But it also kills you through milling or burn before you can just run it over, unless it goes by the big mana into Colossus of Akros plan, which is super slow.

Savage Punch was a choice to prevent the UG Defenders from getting crazy. It's removal that works in GR decks, and fits into a weird small "Power Matters" subtheme I re-added after not wanting it from the original PP cubes. One of the cool things about defenders is that it allowed higher power per CMC than normal, see Glade Watcher, Wall of Flames, Rage Nimbus, and Archers of Qarsi. This was a bit of a play on this. Ambush Viper was in the previous version and I don't yet know if I'm ready to go back.

Champion of lambholt was a card I had considered but felt like it might make for a bit of "feels bad" plays, with the fact that it can make your entire board unblockable, and that it grows fairly quickly.

As for changes, it seems I'll play cubing with a new group with little overlap, so I want to take this opportunity to do a few things I feel I should:

Drowned Temple -> Mage-Ring Network
Reyhan, Last of the Abzan -> Shambling Shell
Innocent Blood, Dread Return -> Vicious Offering x2
Merciless Javelineer -> Strangling Soot #2
Trash for Treasure -> Lightning Axe #2
Honored Hydra -> Splinterfright #2
Crater Elemental-> Reckless Racer

Crippling Fatigue -> Sever the Bloodline
Icy Manipulator -> Titan Forge

Drowned Temple didn't see any play, but I think the coming increase in self-mill might make it worth a bit more. However, I find Mage-Ring Network super cool, so I'd like to have it.

Reyhan, Last of the Abzan I think it too powerful. Shambling Shell still synergizes with +1/+1 counters, and self-mill, so it goes in instead.
Innocent Blood and Dread Return are out, as cards that were to work in the Aristocrat decks. Vicious Offering x2 goes in, both going in Aristocrats, but being good removal all around. I didn't super like Tragic Slip. Losing Dread Return is a -1 to cards that can be cast from the graveyard, but no worry!
As Merciless Javelineer is replaced by a Strangling Soot #2. Can be cast from the grave, removal at a different CMC (based on Dominaria apparently having removal at all CMCs from 1-5). We lose one discard outlet, but a fairly poor one, for buffs to decks I want to enable. Also:
Trash for Treasure, which has decent reanimation targets IMO, but few sacrifice targets and was not played becomes the 2nd Lightning Axe, for reasons a few posts above. I really like that card.
Removal check Honored Hydra is out. This is a temporary loss for the self-mill green decks, but we get an enabler in Splinterfright #2, who still works as a pay-off card.
Crater Elemental bothered me a bit as it felt as a defender, but wasn't, and also had a really high toughness, which I preferred in green. It did work with Power Matters, but no one played it, and when I got it I felt a bit meh about it. Reckless Racer is more versatile, with First Strike making it synergize fairly well with Power buffs and its body making it a good creature on the defensive. Also Fuck Yeah, more looting! Very glad about this change.

Crippling Fatigue didn't see much play, and black doesn't need that kind of life gain payoff anymore. Sever the Bloodline is a strong removal spell, and goes in, as it also provides a CMC that I don't yet have in black (four). This'll be great.
Icy Manipulator I really like you. I also feel like I'm one of the two people who would first pick you. Much like Grafted Wargear, you feel like an idiot test, and I feel like it's a bit cheating to keep you in when I'm one of the very few that knows the result. I really like how you help control decks, but aggro needs their time to shine, and they shiny slightly less well with you than we do. I've got Pacification Array as an "almost good enough" but we both know I'll be thinking of you when I'm playing with it. A few of my friends also have complained about you... Titan Forge is bigger and less efficient, but fits something I think I want -> super value. Here's our thoughts from the groupchat:

Me: BTW, thoughts on this: https://magiccards.info/mbs/en/141.html
Me: It can be an extra win con, synergizes with Golem, and Winding Constrictor. and Proliferate. I'm actually worries it'd be too strong. but if a deck can't punish a 12 mana investment, they might be too weak.
Ay: The first time I saw it was a Mirrodin Beseiged draft. I thought it was cool.
Ay: It needs to be in a control deck, though it would word with constrictor
Me: Might be to hard to remove
Me: Yeah. I'm wanting to add more colorless, noncreature Control win cons
Me: this came to mind.
Ay: It would feel really bad to invest the mana and turns into this, make the token, and then lose the token to a silent departure, lol
Me: Perfect.
Me: You're not playing this when you're playing the tempo game.
Ay: No, just a funny situation. The interesting thing about it is once you are able to make a golem, even if your opponent has found their artifact removal, they have to make a choice between the token and the source.
Me: Mhmm.
My: at least departure is sorc speed and this can be made at instant speed
Me: Here's the deal. If you're Silent Departuring the titan Forge token, you're almost certain to lose
Me: Silent Departure is a tempo card. A tempo deck that lets your opponent play a 12 mana, 4 turn 9/9 is going to lose.
Me: That's the equivalent of playing a burn deck that plays a "R - Deal 5 damage to your opponent if their life total is 40 or more."
Me: It's a good play, in a terrible situation.
Ay: You could just be flashing back the departure, but that's not much better so I get what you are saying
Me: Like the best best best case scenario, you've got them way down, and you're waiting to topdeck a burn spell, before they kill you.
Me: Since you got them to 2 on turn 6 and they aren't killing you for another 12 turns.
Me: Like, in case you wonder, it'd be a card I could have seen in my deck last draft, in those games vs Ay.
Me: Of even I could have used to go over back the Top of Sf.

Thoughts on these possible changes?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

A few things, it worries me that you ended up with so many (4?) themes together in the same deck, but I'm also glad this could work out. It might be because of the drafting AI, but this gives me the impression I don't have enough cards of each theme to fully support the decks I'd want to.

hmmm...thats an interesting idea and one thats hard for me to comment on.

The BV was an early pick (first?--don't remember) because I really wanted to push the format, and see if that would lead to a dead end--it didn't, which probably is the more important take away, as BV is a narrow build-around card. The melding of themes and sub-themes I feel were organic from the draft, and some came out stronger than others in the final product.

The deck feels pretty close to ideal to me, except for the light removal (which I would have to play it to really know). It has a strong focus as a golemn recurssion engine, which is novel and fun in itself, but there are enough dynamics from the other themes, where I won't get bored from it over the course of a night.

How concise did you want the deck to be?

 

[CaptnIrony]

hmmm...thats an interesting idea and one thats hard for me to comment on.

The BV was an early pick (first?--don't remember) because I really wanted to push the format, and see if that would lead to a dead end--it didn't, which probably is the more important take away, as BV is a narrow build-around card. The melding of themes and sub-themes I feel were organic from the draft, and some came out stronger than others in the final product.

The deck feels pretty close to ideal to me, except for the light removal (which I would have to play it to really know). It has a strong focus as a golemn recurssion engine, which is novel and fun in itself, but there are enough dynamics from the other themes, where I won't get bored from it over the course of a night.

How concise did you want the deck to be?

I think I can assume it was fine if it was/felt organic. I guess I was more worried you felt pushed into doing something that tried so many things because there wasn't enough to focus on. I had gotten a few comments earlier on in the thread on how the cube felt short on playables. It felt good to you, which is good for me. I'm glad you could make Burning Vengeance work.

I guess in the above set of proposed changes I added one piece of red removal, which can be nice.

I also forgot one:
Leonin Scimitar -> Sai of the Shinobi
This might help the Ninja decks a bit, and lets people play a bit more with the equipment early game, making it a better tempo play on turn 1.

I'm also a bit worried that blue might be a bit weak. I wanted to emphasize its tempo role with the counters I chose as only CMC 3+ has hard counters, all with an upside, with no particularly strong "semi hard" (ala Mana Leak) counters. Also, there are no counters that require you to pay more mana than they cost.

I really like Careful Consideration but I seem to be the only one for now, but I'm down to keep it in to see what happens when it gets played. It might do so well that it'll bring attention to itself, or make it known it needs to be shelved.

I'm also imagining a UR Tempo deck that plays a lot of lands (18 maybe, with multiple bouncelands) that uses it as its discard folder. You ensure you hit your early drops, in the right colours, then discard the rest (anything after 3-5 over the course of the game) and playing bounce lands as a free (card wise) land that keeps you discarding. I'd love to try this.

One thing about your deck above, Grillo, that's been plaguing me. I get it happens sometimes, but I don't want someone to draft a Burning Vengeance deck and mill it with no/one way of getting it back. Does that bother you? In your deck, you're able to just ignore it that game and go on another plan, but none of Grapple with the Past, Sudden Reclamation, nor Tracker's Instinct get enchantments back (any build-around you'd want in a deck that doesn't mind having a big graveyard, like Stormbind, Secrets of the Damned). I do have Nature's Spiral. I like Gaea's Blessing with how you don't lose CA and can loop between them, but you also don't want to reshuffle everything by accident. Might that risk be worth it though?

 

[sigh]

if you want enchantments and self-mill to be going in the same deck,

might be good options. They insure that you can get the vengeance/stormbind etc. into your hand from the revealed cards. They don't solve the recurring it from the grave problem though.

 

[CaptnIrony]

if you want enchantments and self-mill to be going in the same deck,

might be good options. They insure that you can get the vengeance/stormbind etc. into your hand from the revealed cards. They don't solve the recurring it from the grave problem though.

I don't super feel like they're what I want. But Vessel of Nascency is closest. In another cube, where I'd want Gx Delirium (prob WG) I'd love Vessel of Nascency. The fact that it does nothing but dig and can't hit stuff already in the graveyard kills it. Commune with the Gods seems narrow in a section that is already strapped for cards.

I'd like Nature's Spiral with Flashback, sort of like Restock, but over two cards (Like Think Twice). Alternatively, make Sudden Reclamation work with Enchantments/Permanent Cards.

The dream ~

EDIT: After posting this I saw your sig and remembered that I like the sequencing and smaller CA cards from your cube, sigh. I don't think it'd fit mine but makes me want to make two cubes to explore all the possibilities. I'd like to play with that sort of stuff.

 

[sigh]

Both search directly for the Burning Vengeance while filling the GY. Depending on how much you want to push the vengeance deck, they work directly with the namesake and strategy.

I could see at least Grapple with the Past as a potential flex slot

 

[CaptnIrony]

We drafted Saturday and had a mini half draft last week, this is for this week, as we got a full 8 and did things properly.

I implemented some of the changes that I had mentioned previously, but I have not gotten all my orders in yet.

Here were the changes:
Remand x2 -> Miscalculate x2
Tyramet, the Murder King, Merciless Javelineer -> Azra Oddsmaker x2
Rakdos Guildmage - > Rakdos Cackler #2
Ravenous Bloodseeker -> Furyblade Vampire
Fogwalker -> Warkite Marauder
Feeling of Dread -> Farm // Market
Faithless Looting -> Dismissive Pyromancer
Chronomaton -> Meteor Golem
Triskelion -> Suspicious Bookcase
Jeskai Windscout-> Aven Wind Mage
Nibilis of Dusk-> Aven Wind Mage

And here were the decks:

0-3 Sf

RG Defenders

Creatures (11) 1 Thermo-Alchemist 1 Resilient Khenra 1 Rishkar, Peema Renegade 1 Carven Caryatid 1 Axebane Guardian 1 Archers of Qarsi 1 Vent Sentinel 1 Cultivator of Blades 1 Kessig Cagebreakers 1 Maul Splicer 1 Guardian of the Ages Instants / Sorceries (5) 1 Pit Fight 1 Avacyn's Judgement 1 Insult // Injury 1 Sweltering Suns 1 Spider Spawning Artifacts / Enchantments (8) 1 Bonesplitter 1 Warmonger's Chariot 1 Throne of the God Pharaoh 1 Grafted Wargear 1 Sickleslicer 1 Stormbind 1 Boompile 1 Contagion Engine

Lands (2) 1 Blasted Landscape 1 Gruul Turf (0)

1-2 Sg

BG Recursive Wipes

Creatures (12) 1 Monastery Swiftspear 2 Bloodsoaked Champion 1 Pale Rider of Trostad 2 Azra Oddsmaker 1 Big Game Hunter 1 Grave Scrabbler 1 Falkenrath Noble 1 Throat Slitter 1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni 1 Hangarback Walker Instants / Sorceries (8) 1 Innocent Blood 1 Abrade 1 Cathartic Reunion 1 Devour in Shadow 1 Recoup 1 Crippling Fatigue 1 Starstorm 1 Black Sun's Zenith Artifacts / Enchantments (3) 1 Pacification Array 1 Abandoned Sarcophagus 1 Burning Vengeance

Lands (1) 1 Rakdos Carnanium (0)

1-2 My

BGw Aristocrat Agro

Creatures (16) 1 Signal Pest 1 Rakdos Cackler 1 Carrion Feeder 1 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk 1 Chronomaton 1 Zalaport Cutthroat 1 Duskhunter Bat 1 Merfolk Branchwalker 2 Winding Constrictor 1 Cartel Aristocrat 1 Vizkopa Guildmage 1 Yahenni, Undying Partisan 1 Flesh Carver 1 Reyhan, Last of the Abzan 1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped Instants / Sorceries (6) 1 Ulcerate 1 Murderous Compulsion 1 Ichor Slick 1 Lingering Souls 1 Start // Finish 1 Strangling Soot Artifacts / Enchantments (1) 1 Hardened Scales

Lands (4) 1 Jungle Hollow 1 Temple of Malady 1 Golgari Rot Farm 1 Orzhov Basilica (0)

2-1 Ah

UR Prowess Flying Defender

Creatures (17) 1 Wall of Torches 1 Warkite Marauder 2 Doorkeeper 2 Stormchaser Mage 1 Aerial Guide 2 Aven Wind Mage 1 Rage Nimbus 2 Bloodwater Entity 1 Flamewake Phoenix 1 Vent Sentinel 1 Whirler Rogue 1 Mirror-Mad Phantasm 1 Hoarding Dragon Instants / Sorceries (3) 1 Silent Departure 1 Scrap 1 Dissipate Artifacts / Enchantments (2) 1 Pacification Array 1 Sai of the Shinobi (0)

2-1 Ay

URb Graveyard Control

Creatures (7) 1 Augury Owl 1 Dismissive Pyromancer 2 Blodoghast 1 Hollow One 1 Mnemonic Wall 1 Bedlam Reveler Instants / Sorceries (14) 1 Force Spike 1 Flame Jab 1 Lightning Axe 1 Miscalculation 1 Fires of Undeath 1 Forbidden Alchemy 1 Oona's Grace 1 Fiery Temper 1 Dismiss 1 Careful Consideration 1 Deep Analysis 1 Alchemist's Greeting 1 Confirm Suspicions 1 Evacuation Artifacts / Enchantments (3) 1 Secrets of the Dead 1 Burning Vengeance 1 Pyromancer's Goggles

Lands (8) 1 Drownyard Temple 1 Terramorphic Expanse 1 Dismal Backwater 1 Swiftwater Cliffs 1 Bloodfell Caves 1 Temple of Epiphany 1 Dimir Aqueduct 1 Izzet Boilerworks (0)

2-1 Kc [first time in my reports]

GWu Agro

Creatures (12) 1 Thraben Inspector 2 Judge's Familiar 1 Overgrown Battlement 1 Seeker of the Way 1 Merfolk Branchwalker 1 Whitemane Lion 1 Renegade Rallier 1 Aven Riftwatcher 1 Master Splicer 1 Wing Splicer 1 Krosan Tusker Instants / Sorceries (9) 1 Silent Departure 1 Savage Punch 1 Pit Fight 1 Feeling of Dread 1 Prepare // Fight 1 Mouth // Feed 1 Spring // Mind 1 Fumigate 1 Increasing Devotion Artifacts / Enchantments (2) 1 Oketra's Monument 1 Cast Out

Lands (5) 1 Ash Barrens 1 Arch of Orazca 1 Temple of Mystery 1 Azorius Chancery 1 Selesnya Sanctuary (0)

2-1 Ab [first time in my reports]

GWr Agro

Creatures (19) 2 Experiment One 1 Kor Skyfisher 1 Jeskai Student 2 Ajani's Pridemate 1 Wall of Omens 1 Wall of Blossom 1 Thermo-Alchemist 1 Bygone Bishop 1 Monastery Mentor 1 Crocanura 1 Fleetfoot Panther 1 Solemn Simulacrum 1 Master Splicer 1 Vital Splicer 1 Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer 1 Honored Hydra 1 Mage-Ring Responder Instants / Sorceries (3) 1 Firebolt 1 Prepare // Fight 1 Firespout Artifacts / Enchantments (1) 1 Stormbind

Lands (8) 1 Evolving Wilds 1 Blossoming Sands 1 Rugged Highlands 1 Wind-Scarred Crag 1 Temple of Abandon 1 Temple of Plenty 1 Temple of Triumph 1 Boros Garrison (0)

3-0 Me

WBu Lifegain Control

Creatures (5) 1 Seeker of the Way 1 Bloodbond Vampire 1 Mindwrack Demon 1 Razor Hippogriff 1 Meteor Golem Instants / Sorceries (10) 1 Ulcerate 2 Blessed Alliance 1 Timely Reinforcements 2 Farm // Market 1 Biting Rain 1 Dusk // Dawn 1 Chastise 1 Decree of Pain Artifacts / Enchantments (8) 1 Elixir of Immortality 1 Sun Droplet 1 Pristine Talisman 1 Well of Lost Dreams 1 Icy Manipulator 1 Cast Out 1 Angelic Accord 1 Sanguine Bond

Lands (4) 1 Scoured Barrens 1 Orzhov Basilica 1 Temple of Enlightenment 1 Selesnya Sanctuary (0)

Round 1:
Me 2-0 Sf
Kc 2-1 My
Ay 2-0 Sg
Ah 1-1 Ab (They went to time and Ah had lethal on the board on turn 5, but play mistaked (went to combat before casting sorcery-speed removal) leaving her opp at 2, we entered it as a draw, but it should have been a win)

Round 2:
Me 2-0 Kc
Ab 2-0 Ay
Sg 2-0 Ah
My 2-1 Sf

Round 3:
Me 2-1 Ab
Kc 2-0 Sg
Ay 2-1 My
Ah 2-0 Sf

I P1P1 Icy Manipulator and 2nd picked a Stonecloaker thinking I might head into a self bounce value deck or an offensive flying one. Third pick took a while for me, hesitating between Ulcerate and Miscalculation. I picked the former and ended up being pulled towards a controlling BW Lifegain deck. I remember getting an 8 cards pack with both Wall of Limbs and Sun Droplet and being upset that I'd get only one of the two.

I ended up playing a WB Lifegain Control deck. Angelic Accord was hard to trigger, but really satisfying when it worked and didn't feel bad. Elixir of Immortality I'd normally never look at, but it did a ton of work. I didn't take the Ajani's Pridemates because of their low cost, which made me assume they'd only be good in aggro decks, but Bloodbond Vampire was decent, even if it came after a couple of sources of lifegain that the Ajani's Pridemate wouldn't miss. I had Condemn and two Forsake the Worldly in the sideboard, which helped me out a ton when needed. I didn't draft very many lands, which I was a bit disappointed with.

My first round was against Sg. We joked a bit since last Saturday, with our weird half draft, we both played slow decks, and our games would consistently finish after the other's matches. She won in 3 that time too. This time, it seemed fairly one-sided. She got a few creatures out at one point and swung for something like 11, but I managed to destroy two and gain 7, back to 19 in my next turn, apparently, that felt bad. I won in 2.

My second round was against Kc, my first time playing magic vs him, see the last two paragraphs for a bit more about him (I write these posts way out of order). He played really fast, and I did a lot of play mistakes trying to keep up, and I guess I felt intimidated into keeping the speed while feeling confident enough in my deck and ability that I didn't feel my sub-optimal play would cause me to lose. The first game went super long, I almost decked out, and slow rolled my third casting of Elixir of Immortality until my library had only one card because I feared a counter and I was waiting for him to not have blue open. Turns out he didn't run any, and he never really got close to beating me that game, I think I went above 55 life at one point, and he got a ton of use from his Arch of Orazca. I missed a lot of damage, and triggers, I think in the future, I shouldn't let myself be as affected by my opponent. Second game went better for him, I made a bit of a major mistake allowing him to get free blessing on Arch of Orazca (played too quickly, didn't kill his creature in response to him casting his 10th permanent, ended up killing it during combat :/). I also waited to cast a board wipe and because I wanted to goad him into flashing back his Increasing Devotion. Turns out he was at 6 mana and I just took a bunch of extra damage for no reason. I decided to race him with fliers and Sanguine Bond before the flashback since I had already cast a wipe and had Dusk // Dawn which wouldn't help. I got him a bit down but he got to it fairly quickly with help from the Arch of Orazca. I ended up letting myself take a huge attack down to 6 to Timely Reinforce him down to 2, before finishing him off with a Blessed Alliance. I won in 2.

In round three I faced Ab, game one I beat him fairly handily. Lots of removal, and a lot of his cards functioned better with other cards, which I didn't let. Got cocky. I am now realizing that I didn't play to what I consider the best of my ability (see all the play mistakes) but I am now thinking it might have to do with a mild hangover and the 3 and half hours of sleep. Game two I kept a hand with my one Island and two Swamps, and early removal in white, and Biting Rain. Small aside, I think I value that card way higher than anyone else in the group. I considered it as my first pick in pack 2, decided on something else, and it TABLED. I freaked. No idea why I kept that hand, it was awful. I ended up missing my fourth land drop and top decking Dimir Aqueduct turn 5. lol. He killed me on his turn 6. I didn't cast a spell that game. Game three started off less well for me, with a mulligan, but the scry showed a Timely Reinforcement while he didn't have a great hand. He got me down to 13 or so and I cast Mindwrack Demon as a blocker. It slowed him down a bit, and I had my trusty Biting Rain which only would kill his Ajani's Pridemate, Monastery Mentor, and 1 Token. I got a Sanguine Bond out and acted a bit like I felt stabilized, while still in the low teens. I swung with the Mindwrack Demo and he chose to take it. He then swung back with Kor Skyfisher and Jeskai Student. I got a gross 6 mana Blessed Alliance that ended up killing the Jeskai Student, untapping my Mindwrack Demon to eat his Kor Skyfisher, gaining 4 and having him lose 4. I won shortly after.

This was a fun draft, but not the type of decks I'd normally play. I had a hard time with the triggers: gain 1 off Sun Droplet, trigger the Sanguine Bond, and Well of the Lost Dreams. Damn, I just spent the mana I needed for my instant trick. Or forgetting to EoT Pristine Talisman. I'd often put a die on my deck, but I'd also untap before drawing. :/

In addition, Ah (Prowess Flying Defenders Deck) is sort of my +1 and asked me for a bit of help after the draft while making a deck. She had a lot of prowess creatures, but few non-creature spells (she's not very good at magic/she's new) so I took the flying ones and suggested something a bit like the WU Flying + Defensive creatures deck I've seen in some sets. Based on the feedback I've gotten from a particularly loud and new member of the group, I doubted my decision and wondered if I lead her astray. She had Think Twice and Careful Consideration as her other playable two non-creature cards, as well as a Monastery Mentor and two Spellweave Eternals. Thoughts?

Speaking of the loud new member. I've played games with him before, but this was my first time seeing him play magic (I faced him in the 2nd round). He plays fast and "like a pro", with the quick play, card snapping, hand shuffling and what-not. He gave a lot of advice I didn't ask for, and while this doesn't super have to do with cubing, it is different than what I've seen in situations where people suggest staples for commander decks I'm the only one who plays. He was quite vocal about his dislike of Monastery Mentor for being way above the power level of the cube, he let me look through his binder in case I saw any cards I'd want to add to the cube, which I did out of politeness, but when I took nothing, he sort-of forced me to take a Lone Missionary "whether or not I choose to include it". He also mentioned how mono-red aggro seems woefully under-supported, which makes sense, considering it isn't a deck I'm supporting. Have you guys had to deal with backseat cube builders?

EDIT: If you're looking for the "last two paragraphs", you're actually looking for the two above this line.

I've talked with My after the draft about his deck, which I want to support, but that seems to have not done well. He thinks he could have done well, but he expected Falkenrath Noble to table, which he says would have fit well. He also missed the Bloodghasts and the Bloodsoaked Champions. We both think this could have helped.

I worry that aggro might be too weak, and I'm thinking of pivoting blue a bit more towards ninjas/prowess. Augury Owl will probably be replaced by Elusive Spellfist, and I might want to add second. Stormfront Riders seems to be way weaker than I expected, and no one plays it. I am looking for replacements, Chronosavant is on the list, as is Eternal Dragon and Approach of the Second Sun, but the later seems a bit too strong for the cube. And while I like the first, it might not jive. This hasn't been mulled over a ton, so I'll see where this goes. I'd also like to fit in Inferno Jet if possible.

 

[CaptnIrony]

Also this, about the changes:

Remand x2 -> Miscalculate x2
Remand almost never saw play, Miscalculate was a freaking house. Remand doesn't fully remove the card but does actually act as a counter, since it delays the opponent and draws a card (think of it as a 0 for 0, which I guess people don't see, me included). I also like cycling because of Abandoned Sarcophagus. I have this cute little fuzzy feeling inside that there are no hard counters at 1 or 2 mana, and you can always get around an opponent's counter by having as much mana up as they do (Force Spike and Miscalculation). Don't know why that appeals to me.
Tyramet, the Murder King, Merciless Javelineer -> Azra Oddsmaker x2
I wasn't too much of a fan of the previous two cards, but they were the best two Rakdos cards for my themes in my opinion. Azra Oddmaker ended up being fantastic. It provides a decent early body, rewards aggression, adds a saboteur effect, and provides card filtering. Super happy.
Rakdos Guildmage - > Rakdos Cackler #2
Helps agro a bit, helps +1/+1 counter deck which I've been nerfing. It also gets rid of the "EoT, I'll make a ton of tokens and keep them until the next turn" that I wondered if I was the only player who knew about. That sort of card made me feel a bit uneasy so I disliked the card more than I think I should have.
Ravenous Bloodseeker -> Furyblade Vampire
To me, this feels like a straight upgrade, trample works well with power buffs, which I want to include a bit more of, and it feels better as a discard outlet, even if it is worse.
Fogwalker -> Warkite Marauder
Fogwalker was cute and I feel underrated, but blue just needed more power. It got more power.
Feeling of Dread -> Farm // Market
Feeling of Dread never saw play until this week, where I saw the first person, Kc, say that it was good (and he finds it great) he didn't play it vs me, and it seems lower power than Farm // Market, but I still felt we needed more removal. I feel bad about losing a card I liked so much, and Farm // Market, while great, feels maybe a bit too good. I could see this change reversed.
Faithless Looting -> Dismissive Pyromancer
Excellent. I really like him, and Faithless Looting never super fit the madness deck, since people are so discard averse they'd not use it until turn 7 or so, to madness two things, or until they needed to dig for an answer.
Chronomaton -> Meteor Golem
I loved Meteor Golem, great in so many ways. Games were slow enough so that I never felt bad drawing it, but I can see decks fast enough so that it won't see play. Didn't really feel overbearing, and gives extra removal for pesky permanents that comes in late enough to still feel like you might want to play a straight-up enchant/artifact removal instead.
Triskelion -> Suspicious Bookcase
This card feels like a meme in the group, there was a lot of talk about it, and I think it was played, but I've not seen it in action.
Nibilis of Dusk, Jeskai Windscout -> Aven Wind Mage x2
I thought this was a strict upgrade for blue, which I really liked, but I realised while watching that they don't trigger off artifacts/enchantments. I was a bit bummed and asked people if I should go back, i.e. if +1 toughness is better than triggering on all noncreatures. Everyone said the toughness didn't matter, but every time I saw them on the field, there was weird stuff like flying 2/3 being afraid to block because they wouldn't trade after 1 trigger. To me, it seemed the +1 toughness was really good, and since this is in blue rather than white or red, I might keep them (for those colours, I want them to work with artifacts as well).

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Speaking of the loud new member. I've played games with him before, but this was my first time seeing him play magic (I faced him in the 2nd round). He plays fast and "like a pro", with the quick play, card snapping, hand shuffling and what-not. He gave a lot of advice I didn't ask for, and while this doesn't super have to do with cubing, it is different than what I've seen in situations where people suggest staples for commander decks I'm the only one who plays. He was quite vocal about his dislike of Monastery Mentor for being way above the power level of the cube, he let me look through his binder in case I saw any cards I'd want to add to the cube, which I did out of politeness, but when I took nothing, he sort-of forced me to take a Lone Missionary "whether or not I choose to include it". He also mentioned how mono-red aggro seems woefully under-supported, which makes sense, considering it isn't a deck I'm supporting. Have you guys had to deal with backseat cube builders?

In my experience, everytime you open your format up to new players, they are going to bring some criticism after the draft. You're in kind of a new unique (in a good way) position in the sense that you do have new perspectives coming in, so its less likely you'll wall into the trap of catering to the same handful of people, and having your perspectives and experiences warped around that.

Magic players tend to be socially awkward, so when they critique things they do it poorly and unperuasively. I say this, because I kind of get the feeling from you writing that the dude was really off-putting.

You're always going to have (and want) cards that push a formats power level, since those cards create structure for the rest of the cube. But you don't want them to be so powerful that they overly warp the cube around themselves. Mentor is a very strong card in xerox style decks, and thus in older formats. It may be way too strong here, or the player may be just applying old bias, or their might be no logical reason, and the card creates a bad feeling that the player than rationalizes. How do other people seem to react to it? You'll have to be the judge, but be open to cutting the card if its having an unhealthy affect on the format.

One of the things that I realized was that it was important to provide semi-valid strategies for all of the color pairs, mono colors, and shards/wedges. Players don't care so much about your design, and will tumble into all sorts of odd places they weren't supposed to go, and than blame you if it dosen't work out. This is harder to do with these types of formats, because you can't just throw in the towel and let OP fixing occlude problem prone color pairs with good stuff drafting, but have to work out the actual gilds/wedges/shards more accurately.

If you look at some of my older posts, you'll see me lament constantly about some of those drafting pairs (particularly fast UR decks). You don't have to have a traditional mono-red deck, but its important that if someone sucks up your red cards (say starting with something that looks like an aggressive 1-2 drop) that their be a valid deck that results. This is the same when they try to meld low cc red threats with blue tempo cards.

The secrete to aggro design at this level is evasion. In powered formats, aggro threats have to be low cc dorks, and the decks work like dull burn decks, due to the power level of whats being cast against them. Slower formats can shift away from glorified burn on a stick and 2cc or 3cc threats that can reliably smash in, whether via menace or flying, will get the work done.

It also takes away a lot of design pressure, as it makes the aggro decks less hyper aggro (which melds awkwardly and leads to lots of draft dead ends due to the inherient narrowness of the cards) and more tempo, which melds easier with much of the rest of the cube's infrastructure. Even if those random evasive threats end up in the wrong place (say a slower midrange deck) they can still function, and perform reasonably.

A lot of cube card choice is just picking flexible cards with personality over overly narrow cards (though maybe you want the narrow cards near the top of the power point, to provide structure without overpowering the rest of the cube) so a drafter can stumble around creativly, but not hurt themselves in the process.

There will always be an natural tension between your lifegain deck and the rest of the formats aggro decks, though people seem to enjoy lifegain as a theme.

The complexity issues you pointed out with your deck (all of the triggers) will become an issue for some new players, or less core players uncomfortable with processing that level of decision making. Their might be a point where you want to streamline some of that, by cutting some of the more complicated cards. The easiest way to make that decision is just watch where people are taking overly long with their decision making, or feeling pressured by other players to play faster.

 

[CaptnIrony]

In my experience, everytime you open your format up to new players, they are going to bring some criticism after the draft. You're in kind of a new unique (in a good way) position in the sense that you do have new perspectives coming in, so its less likely you'll wall into the trap of catering to the same handful of people, and having your perspectives and experiences warped around that.
Magic players tend to be socially awkward, so when they critique things they do it poorly and unperuasively. I say this, because I kind of get the feeling from you writing that the dude was really off-putting.
You're always going to have (and want) cards that push a formats power level, since those cards create structure for the rest of the cube. But you don't want them to be so powerful that they overly warp the cube around themselves. Mentor is a very strong card in xerox style decks, and thus in older formats. It may be way too strong here, or the player may be just applying old bias, or their might be no logical reason, and the card creates a bad feeling that the player than rationalizes. How do other people seem to react to it? You'll have to be the judge, but be open to cutting the card if its having an unhealthy affect on the format.
One of the things that I realized was that it was important to provide semi-valid strategies for all of the color pairs, mono colors, and shards/wedges. Players don't care so much about your design, and will tumble into all sorts of odd places they weren't supposed to go, and than blame you if it dosen't work out. This is harder to do with these types of formats, because you can't just throw in the towel and let OP fixing occlude problem prone color pairs with good stuff drafting, but have to work out the actual gilds/wedges/shards more accurately.
If you look at some of my older posts, you'll see me lament constantly about some of those drafting pairs (particularly fast UR decks). You don't have to have a traditional mono-red deck, but its important that if someone sucks up your red cards (say starting with something that looks like an aggressive 1-2 drop) that their be a valid deck that results. This is the same when they try to meld low cc red threats with blue tempo cards.
The secrete to aggro design at this level is evasion. In powered formats, aggro threats have to be low cc dorks, and the decks work like dull burn decks, due to the power level of whats being cast against them. Slower formats can shift away from glorified burn on a stick and 2cc or 3cc threats that can reliably smash in, whether via menace or flying, will get the work done.
It also takes away a lot of design pressure, as it makes the aggro decks less hyper aggro (which melds awkwardly and leads to lots of draft dead ends due to the inherient narrowness of the cards) and more tempo, which melds easier with much of the rest of the cube's infrastructure. Even if those random evasive threats end up in the wrong place (say a slower midrange deck) they can still function, and perform reasonably.
A lot of cube card choice is just picking flexible cards with personality over overly narrow cards (though maybe you want the narrow cards near the top of the power point, to provide structure without overpowering the rest of the cube) so a drafter can stumble around creativly, but not hurt themselves in the process.
There will always be an natural tension between your lifegain deck and the rest of the formats aggro decks, though people seem to enjoy lifegain as a theme.
The complexity issues you pointed out with your deck (all of the triggers) will become an issue for some new players, or less core players uncomfortable with processing that level of decision making. Their might be a point where you want to streamline some of that, by cutting some of the more complicated cards. The easiest way to make that decision is just watch where people are taking overly long with their decision making, or feeling pressured by other players to play faster.

First two points, I agree.

Third point: valid and fair. I think this time, the guy saw more games with the Monastery Mentor and he isn't really degenerate, imo in the cube. No one else ever commented about it, nor did anyone, including the guy, say anything anymore.

I agree, I ended up choosing my archetypes as follows: (the whole process was done on folded/cut pieces of papers, which I've saved, in case someone cares)
- Make the guild archetypes, at least one, but up to three for Tempo decks, and for Value decks.
- Combine them into loose three color archetypes that play as Tempo or Value. Something like "Ninja/Saboteur+Blink" in Esper, "Discard Control" in Grixis, "Artifact/Golems" in Naya, or "Prowess" in Jeskai. You only need as little as one per 3 colour combination, up to 2.
- Based on the three colour archetypes, you regenerate guild archetypes that have overlap/synergies with others or that can be expanded with a light splash. Jeskai and Naya gave me Boros Artifacts, Grixis Discard Control and Jund Graveyard Midrange gave me Rakdos Madness. Mardu Go Wide gave me Orzhov Aristocrats. Keep 2-3 per guild.
- Based on the above generate the themes that each single colour should/could do. This ends up being quite a few things (more than a dozen per colour).

This approach helped me decide what I wanted each colour to have acess to, but it didn't necessarily give me archetypes for each possible color combination. Specifically, mono-coloured archetypes are not supported, but two or three colour decks should be.

I felt like it might be ok to ignore the mono-coloured decks. Only one person ever tried to draft one, and it was their first or second draft. It was monoblue, which I think is the weakest colour in my cube.

I do want a fast UR deck to be a thing, but while it seems popular, I've never seen the deck come together. People fight over the pieces, probably cause it gets discussed so much. There is an interest, and I want to see where it goes, before making changes at least. I do, however, doubt it is properly supported, and I'd like to be able to push it more.

What you mention about agro is interesting. I wanted each colour to have a type of reach. White has flying, and being able to go wide. Blue has flying. Red has burn, with defenders, Instants and Sorceries, or various build around enchantments. Green has trample and creatures that get progressively bigger (or token makers that scale with the size of the graveyard), all colours get access to some big tramplers and some evasion through artifacts. I might have gone a bit overboard on this front and have no supported aggro proper enough. I did talk with Aston on our discord about this and they've mentioned that not all environments require aggro decks. Some formats just have various midranges, which is actually how I've heard some people describe limited decks. I'm fine with aggro being something that isn't necessarily always there. There could be a full on aggro deck if you're not fighting anyone else for the cards, but various types of midrange or tempo instead is interesting enough. I'm down to add more evasion.

As for life gain (and defenders) stifling aggro, I agree. And the knee-jerk reaction of just buffing all the agro cards would make non-those non aggro decks way weaker. Lifegain ends up being a value deck that has enough tempo to not lose early, while defenders is a tempo deck that just slows down the other deck quite a bit. For both of those, I think cards that slowly gain value over time, as the cost of tempo would end up doing quite well vs those decks, while not necessarily being good vs the others. Think of Bloodcrazed Neonate vs lifegain, or Chronomaton vs defenders.

As for complexity. For now, I feel fine. When it comes to newer players, I did notice one feeling pressured (by the new player mentioned above among others), but she does play horrendously slowly. This will get better with practice I assume, but I do think I could see myself cutting some of the more complex cards, once the cube is a bit more stable and ends up being closer to its final form. I'll actually talk to that player tonight, see what she thinks.

More importantly, I've come to realize that I'm now doing a thing I've seen in a lot of other cube discussions. Cubes end up being tailored to the group that plays it. What often comes to mind is "well, what if someone else joins", or "what about prior cube expectations" and while keeping it new player friendly, my answers to the comments here does seem to indicate that I'm leaning towards "I see this might be suboptimal in terms for cube design, I'm keeping X, or doing decision Y, because I'm willing to make this suboptimal decision". Aggro just might not make it. Some decks might end up too strong but still stay in, because we enjoy. Some things might be objectively good, but not so much for my group. I guess this'll just suck for newer players, or if I ever bring the cube to a new group.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

What you mention about agro is interesting. I wanted each colour to have a type of reach. White has flying, and being able to go wide. Blue has flying. Red has burn, with defenders, Instants and Sorceries, or various build around enchantments. Green has trample and creatures that get progressively bigger (or token makers that scale with the size of the graveyard), all colours get access to some big tramplers and some evasion through artifacts. I might have gone a bit overboard on this front and have no supported aggro proper enough. I did talk with Aston on our discord about this and they've mentioned that not all environments require aggro decks. Some formats just have various midranges, which is actually how I've heard some people describe limited decks. I'm fine with aggro being something that isn't necessarily always there. There could be a full on aggro deck if you're not fighting anyone else for the cards, but various types of midrange or tempo instead is interesting enough. I'm down to add more evasion.

Yes, this is the idea.

To expand on it a little bit, those catagories "aggro" "midrange" and "control" are fine to have. They're really good, conceptual tools that help you and your players reduce these giant card indexs down to something appreciable. The catagories should exist, in some appreciable manner for that reason, but they shouldn't be so rigid to the point where its hurting the rest of the cube experience.

As the designer, what you're mostly interested in is just having good game texture. You don't want games to be overly stagnate, with a feeling of long-periods of stasis, but at the same time you don't want them to be done overly quick.

The point of having pressure in your format at different, format appropriate, CC points is just to keep the game state moving in a pleasing forward direction. Its really nothing more and nothing less. The idea of "aggro" is just a helpful idea that comes along later to help us remember that grabbing up lower CC pressure cards had a meaningful result.

I've been thinking lately that this is where a lot of the confusion over "tempo" comes from. Tempo just means time in Italian and Spanish, its a measure of pacing in music, how fast the piece should be played. As cube designers, we want to place our pressure pieces in positions where they can prosecute the game's tempo and make sure it has a pleasing pace to it, so the game experience dosen't stagnate.

Its something not really suitable for the type of post hoc catagorization that players rely on to understand the game, as its a universal, rather than something you can just seperate from the rest of the game, and place into an easily isolated or semi-isolated catagory, as we can somewhat effectively with the other big 3.

At any rate I don't think players even care much beyond that. As long as the game texture feels good, and they aren't feeling overly bored, or overly rushed, they tend to be happy. Whatever your pressure pieces are (which are easy to provide via different evasion mechanics), you just have a reasonable grouping in the lower portion of the mana pool available to be grouped, and whatever that grouping is will be transformed into an "aggro" deck by the same post hoc catagorizing pattern that players have always used to understand the game. Everyone ends up happy.

 

[CaptnIrony]

I've got a few more changes, mostly some that I wanted to do before, but where I hasn't yet received the cards:

Out -> In
Reyhan, Last of the Abzan -> Shambling Shell
Innocent Blood, Dread Return -> Vicious Offering x2
Trash for Treasure -> Lightning Axe #2
Honored Hydra -> Splinterfright #2
Crater Elemental -> Reckless Racer
Crippling Fatigue -> Sever the Bloodline
Icy Manipulator -> Trading Post
Staff of Nin -> Titan Forge
Spring // Mind -> Memory's Journey
Alchemist's Greeting -> Fiery Temper
Abrade -> Inferno Jet
Comments
Reyhan, Last of the Abzan -> Shambling Shell
+1/+1 BG midrange seemed overpowering, and Reyhan felt like a big part of it. I thought he basically had modular, but he gives it to all your creatures, which made combat a nightmare. This trade should make one of the strongest decks a bit fairer while helping self-mill. Win win, except for +1/+1 midrange. Which I can buff in other ways, in the future.
Innocent Blood, Dread Return -> Vicious Offering x2
This is the end of the push towards more removal. I think I now have enough and can start cutting back, or fine tuning. Innocent Blood felt weirdly vanilla in the cube and both of these cards were to help decks that didn't mind saccrificing their creatures. Vicious Offering does the same while also being playable in other decks, and I think would end up being stronger than either. Dread Return also played poorly. It was rarely played, didn't do much when it did, and never really pushed for self-mill, so I've done other things for it.
Trash for Treasure -> Lightning Axe #2
Trash for Treasure was played once and apparently felt like a trap. I also remember drafting around it and ending up cutting it. It was supposed to combo a bit with Pyromancer's Goggles but didn't really. None of the artifacts felt really great to sacrifice. Lightning Axe again is coming in in what I think will be my lasts "increase the removal" update. I also really Like Lightning Axe. I love the under-costed card with the additional discard cost and how it gives an impression of being able to spend more to get something cheaper. Solid tempo card.
Honored Hydra -> Splinterfright #2
People have mentioned that Honored Hydra quickly becomes a removal test, and with the fact that the majority of my removal is limited in what it can hit, this was a hard card to deal with, twice. It also didn't push self-mill much. Splinterfright is always fun when played, but seemed a bit weak. I like that adding another one makes both stronger and I honestly want to draft them in a self-mill deck now. I also like that this can become quite big, and is a lower cost creature that has trample.
Crater Elemental -> Reckless Racer
Crater Elemental felt like a defender, but wasn't, and also had a fairly high toughness (one of the four 5 CMC or less 6 toughness creatures, and the only one that cost 3) and always felt a bit off. Dismissive Pyromancer provides the ability to self-sac for 4, if one cares about this, and Reckless Racer's first strike makes it work better with buffs. It seemed cool but ended up being just an awkward card. I also really like that Reckless Racer loots. I really like looting. (or like, rummages, or whatever this is called.)
Crippling Fatigue -> Sever the Bloodline
Again, the removal thing. Crippling Fatigue rarely saw play and was fairly weak. This should be better. This is also hard removal. God it is so hard. Only Mirror-Mad Phantasm dodges it. Something about this feels good. I like that no removal spell in the cube feels better or worse than others. This fits this so well as being the highest costed one (or at least tied for it), but still fitting in so well. I like that it can be cast from the graveyard, and can work as a pseudo-wrath vs tokens.
Icy Manipulator -> Trading Post
Not much to say here. I showed my close friend that I was cutting Icy Manipulator. She asked why, and I told her because it was my favourite. I would pick no other card in the cube over it, and I don't like auto-includes. I really like the card, and it created some fairly unfun play patterns (I think, the only time I've played against someone who had it, I'd remove it, or force them to use it when I wanted with Pacification Array). Trading Post does a lot though. Its life gain helps the life-gain and madness decks. Its goat helps deck stabilize and works in aristocrats. Its ability to recur artifacts can make for interesting combos in self-mill, discard, and artifact decks. It replaces Trash for Treasure a bit there. Its last ability works well with all the artifact tokens I have. I have high hopes for this card.
Staff of Nin -> Titan Forge
I felt like Staff of Nin felt like a crazy card in matchups that went long. It was way better than most cards at its CMC for these matchups and felt unfair. I'm providing a different alternative for decks that really want value. This should be able to make the late game more interesting. I can't wait to see it.
Spring // Mind -> Memory's Journey
Spring // Mind didn't really fit. I cut out most accelerants (except Pristine Talisman because of life-gain, and the defenders). This also didn't push self-mill, since the Mind side cost so much for so little. Memory's Journey should help out self-mill a bit by being able to recycle some of the cards you don't want to lose and can be cast from the graveyard for cheap if need be. I've tried self mill decks and worried about milling some pieces I really wanted (like Epitaph Golem) and this fixes this. Baron is back on the table, boys!
Alchemist's Greeting -> Fiery Temper
It was between Alchemist's Greeting and Avacyn's Judgment. I don't like the Avacyn's Judgement is actually bad to discard early. You usually want to be discarding madness cards you can cast for cheap, or cards you don't want/care for. In this sense, Avacyn's Judgment is actually worse than a flashback card. However, I do want to push a type of value madness deck, and Avacyn's Judgment fits wonderfully, becoming the only X burn spell in the cube. Alchemist's Greeting, while cool, is too expensive to not madness in, and doesn't hit players. I'm also unsure if hitting for 4 is a bit unpleasant, as it trades with almost everything, allowing the 5 damage spells to be kept for the big stuff. I'd rather have the 3 to creature or player, and enable even more low mana madness shenanigans.
Abrade -> Inferno Jet
Abrade was getting close to being an auto-include. Very good burn for the cost, and hit artifacts. I don't feel like there is too little non-creature hate, but I do feel like people do end up having to pick them highly. Inferno Jet, however, I love. This gives reach and cycles (hello Abandoned Sarcophagus). I like how it changes the feel of a game when you stabilize at less than 6. I like how it, with the small increase in player burn above allows for a creature-less red control that might want to burn its opponent out (Pyromancer's Goggles, add blue for looting and recursion). The fact that one burn spell that targets players can deal so much enables Recoup and the two Mystical Retrieval to do silly things. I love this include.

In addition, I've got a few more changes that I'd like to do for the future, once I get the cards and figure out more of what I want to do. Here are things that come to mind for now:

I know I want to make aggro better.

Condemn doesn't feel needed anymore. This is only good in value decks, and I feel the two Blessed Alliances are enough. I'm considering swapping this for Ramosian Rally to help go wide decks, aggro decks, and white prowess decks.

Stormfront Riders ended up being vastly less playable than I thought. I thought it would be something like a 5 mana 4 power flyer, but it often became a repeatable 5 mana 1/1 token. It doesn't help blink a ton and does poorly in the flyer deck. Galepowder Mage came to mind as a replacement, having flying, enabling free blink, and clearing the path for ground creatures. The blink itself worries me, though, and might be a bit excessive. Chronosavant seemed really cool too, if a bit weak. It would be a pet card of mine, and I wonder what a game would look like if someone were to activate its ability on turn 2. Late game control decks might be able to use it. It probably wouldn't stay in, but I'd like to try it for a bit. I already have a copy.

I'd like to bring in two Elusive Spellfists to help prowess a bit as well as give more evasion. I can see one replacing the Augury Owl, but I don't know where the other would come from. Maybe from Spellweaver Eternal, but I worry about getting rid of too many of blue's non-flyers. If you've got mostly flyers, the ones left get worse.

I think to buff prowess, I could add a combat trick. White has Swift Justice which does provide First Strike, which fits in RG high power decks, Lifelink, which works in the life-gain decks, and is cheap. However, when I rediscovered Ramosian Rally, I decided I was happier with it. I'd like a Red one if I can fit it in, and I'd really like a blue one. Jace's Scrutiny came to mind, as did cards like Slip Through Space.

Skeletal Vampire I like because of Grillo, and could see myself including at a later date, if I want to change black a bit.

Regal Bloodlord fits in WB, maybe.

With what I've discussed above with Staff of Nin, I might be having a hard time with the easy sources of draw. After the above changes, I'd currently have Tapestry of the Ages (which I am fine with), Tamiyo's Journal, which helps artifact decks, and Seer's Sundial, which goes infinite with bouncelands. They've yet to be a problem, I hope the mana cost makes them fairer, but they might be now that Staff of Nin is no more. If so, I'd like the replace some/all of them with Titan Forge-like cards that provide non-draw value. This quirky cycle came to mind:





Scepter of Empires and Crown of Empires seem a bit underpowered, but I could see the Scepter of Empires being played as reach or as a finisher in a weird burn-control deck (like the one mentioned above).
Crown of Empires could work as the world's saddest Icy Manipulator.

And I'd love to see a deck try to assemble them all. In another cube, it might be cool to have multiple copies of each/some of these. The gain control effect bothers me a bit though since all players have the same sleeves.

EDIT:
Stormfront Riders -> Chronosavant. Because my cube is the best cube.

 

[CaptnIrony]

I got cards in the mail way sooner than expected:
Augury Owl -> Elusive Spellfist
Dragscape Zombie -> Blood Artist

The following is rehashed from discord, so the writing style might be off.

I'm thinking of replacing the following:
Eternal Witness ->
Frontier Mastodon ->
Renegade Krasis ->
Eternal Witness is worse than I expected and I feel I'm the only one who plays it.
Frontier Mastodon I thought would be good, but almost no one plays it, maybe its too vanilla
Renegade Krasis often ends up making weird feels-bad moment where its the only creature with +1/+1 counters, and often ends up being win-more.

The relevant themes to green: +1/+1 Counters, Big Graveyard, and minor "Power Matters". I added power matters as a small theme to boost RG defenders, as they got higher power per CMC than any other group. But one problem is that the way I had power matters set-up was often "power ~on this card~ matters" see Cultivator of Blades. Other than fighting or combat, Rage Nimbus's 5 power did nothing. I want cards like Resilient Khenra to have a reason to buff a defender. So in my mind, cards that looked at the greatest power seemed what I'd want. But often times they'd end up not doing what I want. Cards that cost 5 to draw equal to that amount seemed bad, and their high cost made it hard to combo it with other effects. Overwhelming Stampede like effects feel as bad as Overrun and don't really care about the extra 2 power off of the Resilient Khenra, that's just win-more. A lot of cards that care about power also trigger during upkeep, before you'd be able to boost them with sorcery speed things.

So I started considering these:
Miming Slime
I really wish this were a 0/0 clone-like creature that only set its power and toughness. Creatures in the graveyard is a theme and this is a big meh... in that sense. Other than that, it might be a bit low power, I feel it should cost 2.5 mana. Really bad on an empty board, and can be blown out by removal.
Fungal Sprouting
Like above, except green doesn't super care about a large number of tokens by itself. This could change with other inclusions but let's not go there.
Monstrous Onslaught
Costs a lot, but works quite well. Ends up being removal, and absolutely incentivizes you to buff your strongest creature.
Mouth // Feed #2
Does care about power, gives an extra tool for aggro and works when milled while not being a creature, so you don't get the awkward Splinterfright + Resilient Khenra nonbo. 3 power hits all the GR defenders that care about power. And this does give green more draw, I like.
Champion of Lambholt, Cultivator of Blades #2, Wild Beastmaster
Only care about their own power, but they do push power matters and could make aggro better. The first two also interact with +1/+1 counters. I'd be worried about Champion, specifically how it shits on defender decks that might be unable to remove it.
EDIT: Forgot Den Protector which is great is a few ways, but I don't want to only have 1 morph in the cube :/

Thoughts?

 

[TrainmasterGT]

I'm thinking of replacing the following:
Eternal Witness ->
Frontier Mastodon ->
Renegade Krasis ->
Eternal Witness is worse than I expected and I feel I'm the only one who plays it.
Frontier Mastodon I thought would be good, but almost no one plays it, maybe its too vanilla
Renegade Krasis often ends up making weird feels-bad moment where its the only creature with +1/+1 counters, and often ends up being win-more.

What about these?

 

[CaptnIrony]

What about these?

I'm not a huge fan of these. I could try Inexorable Blob, although it seems weak without delirium, it might be very strong without (it overruns defenders). Tilling Treefolk does nothing. I've got a few ways to recur lands and the 1/3 non-defender defending body feels un-needed. Colossal Majesty doesn't reward buffing, as it only triggers during the upkeep. I also would like to keep recurring draw rare, I'm not a huge fan of what it does to close games, but it does help GR defenders. This one seems cheap, but . Shaman of the Forgotten Ways provides acceleration which I tried to avoid, and it provides a ton at very little cost. I also really dislike the ability, but that's more me than it.

Apart from the Shaman, they all seem like cards that would fit, if I only wanted one of the pillars supported. However, I'd like to hit a bit more of them. Frontier Mastodon hit two, Renegade Krasis was a very strong pillar in +1/+1 counters, and Eternal Witness was basically G good-stuff that fit in the graveyard decks. I worry I just won't find what I want.

I might do something a bit silly. I might try doubling up on Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, Mouth // Feed and adding Champion of Lambholt, but see all of these as flex slots.

I think I should also consider cutting power matters as a RG theme. It seems to be doing fairly poorly, and defenders are popular without it.

EDIT: Or maybe not. I think I might be falling for the trap of making changes whose effects would be bigger than the problem. This is how you ruin something that's worked before. Renegade Krasis is the one of the three causing the most issues. I think I'll only replace that one, and its position will be the flex slot.

 

[Rowan_CB]

The discussion within the last few posts brought this card to mind, which fits into all three themes you identified for green (big graveyard, +1/+1 counters, and power matters), but is tempered by the fact that delirium needs to be on in order for it to be relevant to the other two themes (similar to Obsessive Skinner, which you are running):