General Abstract: What do you wish was better about your cube's design?
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Yeah, I think there's something to this. My own theory is that every game has a 'critical turn' in which the outcome of the game is more or less decided, even though the game itself may then drag out for another five or ten turns afterwards. In those scenarios I described earlier, the critical turn can happen as early as turn three, when an aggro deck on the draw has its two drop countered, and then its follow-up three drop Lightning Helixed. Being half a turn behind from the get-go makes a world of difference in those situations. Meanwhile, the midrange attrition battles where the boards are either completely empty or completely clogged effectively become topdeck wars, and the critical turn doesn't happen until much later, when someone can draw a bomb to break open the game. There, it doesn't really matter a whole lot who went first, if the board states are roughly even after a dozen turns.
I think the speed and power level of a format are both factors in determining when the critical turn of a given matchup occurs, and by association whether or not being on the play matters much, if at all. I remember watching an Ari Lax deck tech where he top 8ed some tournament with mono-red burn, and he kept emphasizing how crucial it'd been to win several straight die rolls, as that was of paramount importance to his deck in particular, even though it may have mattered less to his midrange and control-playing peers. The effect of the coin flip is a factor that format-wide analysis can't easily distill down into a simple recommendation, but I'm still convinced it matters a whole heck of a lot in some very specific cube matchups.
Laz
Developer
I wish I had a more elegant way to handle non-creature permanents. There are plenty of artifacts/enchantments that have a pretty serious impact on the game (Winter Orb, Mimic Vat, Opposition, etc), but they are far enough apart that pure artifact/enchantment hate just feels bad. While Acidic Slime, Pillage, Putrefy and Mortify do work, there just are not enough of them to go around, while Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse are a little too heavy handed.
Don't get me started on Oblivion Ring, that is a circular solution to this problem...
Don't get me started on Oblivion Ring, that is a circular solution to this problem...
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Honestly Oring is fine if it has no answers.
Have you considered just cutting those problem cards laz?
Have you considered just cutting those problem cards laz?
Why not multiple O-Rings? They interact neatly with each other and deal with everything. Why would anybody dislike O-ring? Good removal is good.
I've actually thought about doubling up on Oblivion Rings, because the thought of wasting a gold slot on Detention Sphere seems silly when it's only very marginally worse. But, for whatever reason, I've never actually pulled the trigger on this change. Mostly because Faith's Fetters stops a lot of the problem permanents that O-Ring does - hello, planewalkers! - while being interesting in its own right.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I run double O-Ring! I'm tempted to run three so someone can try the infinite loop.
CML
Contributor
I'm running all these effects for what I acknowledge is the unsophisticated reason of "hmm, broad answers." Though with DSphere being a 4-of everywhere in Standard these days I'm open to the idea that they're all OP and I'm an idiot
Chris Taylor
Contributor
OP? hardly. Even vindicate is only "insane" because it can destroy lands.
I disklike fetters for gaining life and being 4 mana. 3 is still slow, but 4 can be crippling on a removal spell.
I also run double O ring, but I'm not sure I really need to.
Any sweet ideas for UW to replace Dsphere? I'll put in a 3rd one if need be, more people can play it after all
I disklike fetters for gaining life and being 4 mana. 3 is still slow, but 4 can be crippling on a removal spell.
I also run double O ring, but I'm not sure I really need to.
Any sweet ideas for UW to replace Dsphere? I'll put in a 3rd one if need be, more people can play it after all
There's Swans of Bryn Argol. I like that card because it got such a huge ceiling but it can also work against you if you put it in the wrong deck. Really interesting card. Plus it's hybrid mana, so you could even run that thing in a mono colored section if you wanted.
Then there's Grand Arbiter Augustin IV if you want to go the traditional control route. That's what I'm running at the moment.
And my favorite flashback card of all time, if you count this as gold. Momentary Blink.
I'm a Johnny through and through.
Then there's Grand Arbiter Augustin IV if you want to go the traditional control route. That's what I'm running at the moment.
And my favorite flashback card of all time, if you count this as gold. Momentary Blink.
I'm a Johnny through and through.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Maybe GAIIV plays better than he looks, because he looks aweful
CML
Contributor
lot going on here, I like AZ Charm, Geist, Venser, Sphinx's if you're looking for a smaller section
He's amazing, you just gotta land him. Suddenly all your counterspells cost next to nothing, your Sphinx's Revelation is +2, and your opponent is really mana constrained. You just gotta shell out the 4 mana and land him at the right time, that can be hard.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Hmmm, he doesn't seem like a good fit for me then. My control decks are way more tapout than drawgo, so I'm not sure he'd help as much
Maybe it's Azorious Charm time. I've already got geist and venser never really worked for me. Sphinx's might be good, but like AEtherling, it's the kind of card that if it were good, I'd probably want to change my cube.
Is it just me, or do all the best UW cards already have very good analogues in mono-white?
Detention Sphere = Oblivion Ring
Supreme Verdict = Wrath of God
Azorius Charm = Unexpectedly Absent
Granted, most of the gold cards have a slight advantage over their mono-colour siblings. Just not sure that it's a big enough advantage in cube to spend a valued multicolour slot on.
Detention Sphere = Oblivion Ring
Supreme Verdict = Wrath of God
Azorius Charm = Unexpectedly Absent
Granted, most of the gold cards have a slight advantage over their mono-colour siblings. Just not sure that it's a big enough advantage in cube to spend a valued multicolour slot on.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
No point in playing Verdict over a Wrath IMO, but DSphere does have some interesting corner cases where it's better than ORing and Azorius Charm is really cool (but falls prey to the 'I would want it in all of my UW decks but I don't want it in the Cube/draft' problem)
To be fair, Azorius Charm was quite good here in the short period I ran it, and slotted very well into control decks, much the same way as it's doing in Standard. I recently 'upgraded' it into Unexpectedly Absent.. and now that card wheels more than a NASCAR stock car.
I.. I don't get it.
I.. I don't get it.
No, it's pretty awful in practice too. I wanted to like this card a lot, but never performed.
I also don't know if Unexpectedly Absent is a strict upgrade to Azorius Charm. I wish more charms were cubeable at my level. They are fun to play with but it's always vaguely difficult to justify spending design slots on them.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I mean there's lifelink and cycling, but that card is mostly unexpectedly absent.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
To answer the question in the OP... most of it? I can't think of many specific flaws, the problem is that there's so much stuff I enjoy doing in Cube and only a small number of those things can coexist with each other in the same Cube. I like that my main Cube contains a lot of very powerful yet very decision-heavy cards, and yet I also want to try off-the-wall stuff that just doesn't cut it at that power level (Eidolon of Countless Battles might be the perfect example of this).
CML
Contributor
part of the difficulty is that they were designed for constructed it seems. the 3-color charms are not worth it (though a solid 3/5 saw play?) and the 2-color ones break down as follows:
UW -- standard staple
BU -- fringe standard play
RB -- great modern board card
RG -- fringe standard play
GW -- standard staple
WB -- standard staple and Modern game-changer if I am in the tournament
BG -- incredibly good standard and legacy board card
GU -- saw a little play in Standard
UR -- standard and Modern staple and nearly good enough for legacy
RW -- modern and standard staple
so you'd want to just throw all of them (but UB UG RG) in your cube, but then you realize RB isn't at all maindeckable, GW isn't better than the other cards that cost GW, WB is lamer than (say) Sculler and Gerry's Verdict, BG isn't really maindeckable, and RW neither burns them out, gives a suited-up dude double strike, or protects said dude from wraths in Cube often enough. Moreover there is the difficulty of casting a 2-cost card on turn 2, which is easier for Cube decks here than anywhere else but still pretty hard.
for the most part, these are perfect examples of cards that are designed to fit into constructed, where their flexibility brings great joy. for cube though? if you're me you just end up having UW and UR.
I mean, that's the design of charms; they're not as good as the other options at the casting cost, but because they can be any of three things, they're better value. If you want raw power (not in a power-max sense, but in a splashiness of pick sense), almost anything else will be better at the same CMC. Sure sculler is going to be better than any given mode of orzhov charm, although bounce a creature and all its auras is pretty spicy in the right cube, unconditional removal is generally good, and the reanimate mode is pretty nice, depending on what one drops you run.... does any one of those line up against a mesmeric fiend bear? Erm... depends on your cube and the deck you're drafting. If you sit and go 'I'm going to design my cube around the RTR charm themes' they could be dope.
I am unclear what my conclusion is.
I am unclear what my conclusion is.
All of the charms have a "bare minimum" mode that's always at least something. Cycling is that mode on Azorius Charm, and it's the best of the bare minimum modes.