Ahadabans's Semi-Retro Cube

[ahadabans]

Hello all. I finally got my cube uploaded to CubeTutor. It includes a large number of changes (probably 20-30 cards) and is untested in it's current state (and will likely remain so for several months).

Here it is:
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/11190

I added my unique design parameters in the cube description. I won't repost it here as it's lengthy.

I'm very happy to get feedback and will consider almost all serious suggestions. My cube is very much the product of forums like this one because I don't get to play Magic as much anymore. Cube for me is a luxury I rarely get to actually indulge in, so most of my changes end up going untested and are very theoretical. Thus actual play experience with cards I want to run is invaluable to me.

My current version of cube was aimed at removing obviously broken and/or overpowered cards. Many cube staples were removed including things like Jitte, Recurring Nightmare, Balance, and more. I probably missed a couple in my purge and if you guys point them out I will consider their removal as well.

My goal is not to completely purge powerful cards or create a flat curve (which probably can't be done anyway). It's more aimed at removing obvious P1P1 or cards that are grossly overpowered compared to other things I'm running. I've gone so far as to take out Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshare because both cards are so powerful for their cost and are strict upgrades to cards many play in cube already. The way I see it is if a weaker version of a card is playable in cube, the stronger version really doesn't belong and just feels out of place to me.

 

[ahadabans]

Placeholder for changes.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Where's the lands?

 

[ahadabans]

Yeah. I haven't put lands in there yet. But I think it's going to be the following:
20 shocks
10 fetches
5 man lands
Horizon Canopy
Shelldock Island
Volrath's Stronghold
Mutavault
Mishra's Factory
City of Brass

Then the utility draft will have probably 60-70 other lands (minimal fixing and lots of narrow lands). List TBD but I'll likely steal the base list from the utility land draft thread. Not going to reinvent the wheel.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

From first glance white aggro seems to be a trap option in your cube. You have a reasonable amount of white dudes to beat face with, but very little removal that the deck can use. On the other hand, you have a ton of cards that just delete multiple creatures at once, plus many of the midsized problem creatures that help stall for them. I mean, if you get all the important cards lined up then the nut aggro deck looks pretty good until you glance back over and see what everyone else is playing tons of answers for it incidentally. I thinking slipping in some aggro focused removal would help and maybe cutting down on the X for 1 removal. Plus, this would let you get in more of the enginey cards you like. Things like changing Electrolyze to Ral Zarek Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius or Mercurial Chemister.

Gelid Shackles would probably be perfect: the aggro decks want it to take out blockers, but the slower decks aren't that enthusiastic because it doesn't stop attackers without an upkeep cost.

Good luck with the list and remember to ask questions if you want answers!

 

[ahadabans]

Thanks FSR. Mercurial Chemister was a card I flirted with a couple times, but it looks so slow and fragile (even for my cube - it might be slower than most, but I run a lot of removal). I love Niv-Mizzet (both versions), but I also really like the spells matter deck and so Electrolyze and Prophetic Bolt just seem like the better choices for me right now. Though along those lines, I do want to get Gelectrode back in there, so maybe that is a compromise I can make. Hmmm.....

Thanks for the Gelid Shackles recommendation. That was a cool card and I remember it well. Not sure where to fit it in though. As far as white aggro, I envision a more midrangy version of it (mentor of the meek to provide some card draw, momentary blink and galepowder for blink shenanigans with tokens guys, etc.). It is certainly vulnerable to mass removal (more so than other colors) but it also gets the most efficient creatures in the cube so it seems like a fair compromise at least on paper. I've never been a huge fan of some of the ridiculously overpowered removal that white gets (swords to plowshare in particular, but even oblivion ring is just an amazingly powerful removal spell). I did toss in Temporal Isolation in my most recent update (not yet posted on CubeTutor because it's still a WIP) along with Swift Justice (which looks like a lot of fun to me). I'll keep my eye on this though. Removing Jitte, the swords and stoneforge takes away a really powerful combo for the aggressive white decks, so you could be right that I hamstrung those decks too much.

Do you see any obviously overpowered cards which escaped my purge? Those are the ones I'm looking for at the moment.

 

[ahadabans]

OK. Proposed changes:

OUT >>> IN
Seal of Cleansing >> Temporal Isolation
Cloudshift >> Swift Justice
Electrolyze >> Gelectrode
Tidehollow Sculler >> Gerrard's Verdict

 

[anotak]

offhand glance: opposition, sulfuric vortex, and treachery

 

[ahadabans]

CML brought up Opposition in another thread. I think I'm in denial about that card. I know it's good and oppressive, but I feel like the UU in it's cost makes it much harder to break. Granted, I haven't cubed with it long and no one has locked anybody with it yet. As I said to CML though, it's not like I don't have a billion other options for blue 4 drops.

Sulfuric vortex is sort of a classic and really is it THAT broken?

Treachery isn't broken in my cube. I don't run wurmcoil or any of the Titans. Stealing "fair" six drops is best case scenario and that isn't unreasonable for 5 mana (though the untap effect is obviously really good).

I'm open to counter arguments on all three cards though. Of the three, Opposition is the one I'm most likely to keep my blinders on for until I witness it be degenerate.

 

[anotak]

1) if you want to see about opposition, go to channelfireball and watch lsv draft the modo cubes for the past months he force drafts ug opposition every time

2) i've never seen control beat a vortex that stuck for more than a turn

3) it doesn't matter how good or bad your creatures are, you have a best creature somewhere.

 

[Changling Bob]

offhand glance: opposition, sulfuric vortex, and treachery

Its ok, they aren't planeswalkers so they can't be GRBS

 

[ahadabans]

Its ok, they aren't planeswalkers so they can't be GRBS

LOL Touche.

Seriously though, are you in agreement with Anotak on these three cards?

 

[ahadabans]

1) if you want to see about opposition, go to channelfireball and watch lsv draft the modo cubes for the past months he force drafts ug opposition every time

2) i've never seen control beat a vortex that stuck for more than a turn

3) it doesn't matter how good or bad your creatures are, you have a best creature somewhere.

You are probably right about Opposition and I'm just being stubborn about it. I really like the effect and I don't want to get rid of it, hence my resistance. Any suggestions on a replacement? If you have a really great blue 4 drop that I'm not running which can get my mind off the coolness factor of opposition, I'll certainly try to get over my stubbornness here.

Vortex is really one of the few reasons to go red aggressive. I got rid of orb and anhk, so it's sort of the last of the mohicans (well, Tangle Wire is still around I guess).

I don't get the Treachery concerns. It's much less annoying than Bribery which just windmill slams ramp/reanimator and midrange.dec. Treachery is a control magic that gives you counter magic mana. It's really good but it's not broken. With all the sac outlets in cube (and ways to protect your dudes), I just don't see this thing breaking the meta. Clearly, there will be times when this thing steals a game. But a lot of cards can do that (bonfire anyone?).

 

[Changling Bob]

Opposition is a one card deck assuming any token density.
Treachery will almost always be backbreaking.
I don't have much experience of vortex.

I was also going to bring up bonfire and terminus; for me massacre wurm, sheoldred, inkwell, bogardan hellkite, silverheart, pod, sky swallower are all over the line (assuming reanimator support for some, which you have), although I respect that my line is quite a ways short of normal here.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Trechery is a 2-for-1, bribery is a durdley 5 drop

 

[ahadabans]

Wow. I'm impressed that someone is more reserved than I am when it comes to power cards. I'm totally checking out your cube Changling Bob.

I'm always flip-flopping on bonfire. it's a super swingy randomly mega-powerful card that can really suck, but by the same token is seems to capture red's chaotic nature really well so I keep giving it a pass when I probably shouldn't.

I have little experience with Terminus, but I actually like sweepers because I don't want the best strategy in my meta to be "drop a bunch of dudes and turn them sideways". With that said, I'm not against swapping it out since I probably have too many sweepers even for what I want to be doing.

Pod seems pretty harmless with only one copy. You can't build a deck around it. Hellkite is my favorite reanimation target (and that's all the can usually afford it - oh, and sneak attack). Silverheart is a personal favorite and one of the best reasons to run green ramp IMO. The rest of the fatties I'm not attached too and I'm open to replacement suggestions (I do still want to support reanimator and natural order though - too very fun decks). I think Massacre is fair honestly since it affects you as well and it costs BBB (and you get nothing if it dies). Again, I like sweepers so that guys aren't constantly just assempling midrangeswarm.dec.

On a related note, midrange is what guys gravitate towards and it's really easy to assemble obviously since most everything can go in it. I'd love to find ways to make it harder to assemble while keeping it a good deck (synergy is my angle but it's hard to quantify that and make it work for every scenario). Someone in another thread mentioned making the midrange creatures dudes that you had to put effort into making big (like werewolves). I don't want to run DFC, but ideas like that are intriguing. Any experiences trying to make midrange harder to auto-draft?

 

[ahadabans]

Trechery is a 2-for-1, bribery is a durdley 5 drop

So is Control Magic though. The only thing Treachery has is the untap effect, which is great if you have a counterspell and can protect your play or drop another 5 drop (which is obviously a really big tempo swing). But I don't find this to be an automatic situation in cube. If you are behind, you really only stabilize if they can't do anything about Treachery and they weren't ready to kill you. I've lost plenty of games where I was behind and treachery only helped slow down my death (though they usually had enchantment removal to be fair - killing their own creature is a desperation move that usually hurts them pretty badly).

I agree it's a very good card, but is it really P1P1 (auto pick) in my cube?

I appreciate all the feedback though. I'm fighting on some of these cuts, but you are making solid arguments and I'll probably chop a few of them when the dust settles. Keep it coming.

 

[Chris Taylor]

So is Control Magic though. The only thing Treachery has is the untap effect, which is great if you have a counterspell and can protect your play or drop another 5 drop (which is obviously a really big tempo swing). But I don't find this to be an automatic situation in cube. If you are behind, you really only stabilize if they can't do anything about Treachery and they weren't ready to kill you. I've lost plenty of games where I was behind and treachery only helped slow down my death (though they usually had enchantment removal to be fair - killing their own creature is a desperation move that usually hurts them pretty badly).

I agree it's a very good card, but is it really P1P1 (auto pick) in my cube?

I appreciate all the feedback though. I'm fighting on some of these cuts, but you are making solid arguments and I'll probably chop a few of them when the dust settles. Keep it coming.

It's the untap and play another 5 drop thats more a problem. I haven't found it to be opressive, but it's seriously powerful.

 

[ahadabans]

Fair enough. I'll put it on my watch list. I might even try and break it in the next draft to see if it really does need the ax. I'm not in love with the card but honestly, there are a shortage of good blue 5 CC cards. Next on my list to add would probably be something like Morphling (and I don't really care to add him back). I could always swap Treachery for Bribery, but people hate Bribery because it's sometimes a punch in the face and it comes out of nowhere. Treachery at least requires you to put your fattie on the board (if they steal it, well you played it LOL).

And for the record, it is pretty common for Bribery to be a 2 for 1 since they get the ETB trigger, and it's perma-steal.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Someone in another thread mentioned making the midrange creatures dudes that you had to put effort into making big (like werewolves). I don't want to run DFC, but ideas like that are intriguing. Any experiences trying to make midrange harder to auto-draft?

Yeah, I run the werewolves, but another thing that my cube does, for similar effect, is running threshold creatures, such as krosan beast and were bear. I've generally not found threshold to be powerful enough on its own in cube, but since I’ve added a dredge theme in black and green, it has worked out for me. You could also run some of the morbid creatures from innistrad, such as festerhide boar, which works well if you have a sacrifice theme in your cube. A lot of the bestow and heroic creatures from the most recent set also works well in that regard, though obviously requires some specific cube design, but are all synergy focused. There are also some older cards that can grow into midrange creatures, such as Quirion Dryad or Taurean Mauler. Some of the innistrad soulbound creatures are another way to make smaller creatures bigger, but you have to be careful not to have a large number of naturally sized midrange creatures, or the mid-range decks will just steal those cards.

I've you're worried about midrange decks, you might want to be careful with pod. Pod is a really fun card, but it’s also a solid mid-range card.

I've been diversifying my wrath effects, and I really like terminus. We have a lot of graveyard decks over here, as well as top-of-library manipulation, so terminus is a pretty memorable wrath.

I don't know if you are still planning on playing lots of multiplayer with your new cube, but I’ve noticed that the power level of cards changes dramatically in a multiplayer environment. For example, I cut opposition from our cube because it just isn't that impressive: you can't really tap down 2-3 other players’ entire board and dominate the game. You're also kind of stuck using it on the player right before you in the rotation. Still a good card, but not what I would call oppressive. Bonfire was also like that. It’s a respectable first pick, because you can maul one of the players with it, but it doesn’t really end the game in your favor like it does in 1v1 magic. Sulfuric vortex is, i.m.o, unplayable in multiplayer. Also, with your proposed lands, over here we cut mishra's factor/mutavault style man lands. They just never really get through, no one drafted them, and by extension no one was drafting the wastelands. I didn't get people drafting utility lands (and by extension wasteland) until I ran powerful effects like Creeping tarpit, kessig wolf run, and vault of the archangel. EDIT: I have a question. What type of games/mechanics/play effects/cards does your group really like? I have what I want to go into my cube, but sometimes I have to compromise with what my players want in order to keep them coming back.

 

[ahadabans]

It's a good question. My core group has actually disbanded because the lynchpin moved out of state. He was the guy that introduced me to Magic and he and I were big into free-for-all multiplayer. With that said, a couple other regulars like more structured games and 4 players is common, so two headed giant is typical (as it still has a multiplayer vibe but it plays more like 1v1). We have also played a multi-player variant where all you have to do to win is kill the guy on your left. That is very much like 1v1 as well since you can play tempo / aggro style decks and win.

I like the suggestion on conditional beefy guys that require synergy (bloodthirst is another variant). Morbid is really good (especial with Rx and Bx decks), though sometimes these effects feel a little random (what happens when there is nothing to kill?) If your cube is posted, I'm going to check it out for some more ideas. I'd love to add more playable combat tricks too. I think they add a lot to the game personally.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, my list is posted in this thread: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/grillos-multiplayer-cube.529/ which is listed right below your thread, and also in the messege I sent you, about a week ago

Looking over your posted list, I would strongly suggest you cut polukranos world eater if you are worried about midrange. i.m.o he is the single most oppressive midrange green creature you could run due to his size/CC. In addition, his monstrosity encourages people to play rampy decks, and when he goes off, he is generally eating the aggro player's creatures.

I was also wondering what sort of feel you wanted your cube to have. Mine is mostly modern (not by design) but I really like innistrad and zendikar's mechanics/design/flavor, and thats reflected in the cube. I wouldn't be surprised if 25% of my cube comes from Innistrad block. Based on your prior posts, I was expecting to see something that heavily reflected kamagawa block, time spiral block, and ravinca block limited/constructed. Maybe making dralnu, lich lord actually cubable?

I think you at least want to be running this guy:

 

[ahadabans]

I'm a huge Batman fan (Ravnica block classic), but I'm not sure even my cube is low enough power to run him. He's just really slow and his token making ability is just really expensive.

This cube is a WIP. It still has a lot of the powermax cards in there, and I'm not done purging all of them. I've never played with Polukranos, but I like hydra's so I wanted one in there and he seemed reasonable. He's certainly less annoying the Kalonian Variety.

Are there other cubable hydra's? I've considered Ancient Hydra in the past, but he seems a little weak compared to modern options at that CC. I could always swap Polukranos for Master of the Wild Hunt. Still serves the real purpose that slot is for (pseudo removal).

And I tried to make a Dralnu deck back in the day. It's impossible. Red decks DESTROY you. That dude needed shroud or something.

 

[Changling Bob]

Wow. I'm impressed that someone is more reserved than I am when it comes to power cards. I'm totally checking out your cube Changling Bob.

I would much rather make a fair, pre-NWO-retail-like limited format and let that be the fun, than make a fun (powerful) cube that blows people out at random. I mean, that will probably still happen, but minimising the risk.

Also its totally on cube tutor, and linked in my sig, check it out! It needs a JOU update still, although I might look at that today.

Pod seems pretty harmless with only one copy.

I don't like the idea of a recurrable tutor that's (sort of) hard to interact with. I agree that it can make for an interesting drafting environment, but I can play a game that focuses on the draft if I want that more than I want compelling games of magic.

 

[ahadabans]

Thanks Changling Bob. You are speaking my language honestly. When I started cube, all the ridiculous power was very novel. But after a year or two it started to wear thin on guys. So I've wanted to get rid of some of the obviously unfair cards (things like balance, jitte, etc). I'm still struggling to let go of all the powerful cards though (because that is a small appeal of cube after all), but it's a process.

And it's a fine line too. Traditional limited IMO is really one-dimensional because the power level is so low. You really can't get cute (I'm a Johnny at heart) and your creature based strategies are really the best ones unless the format has really solid synergistic mechanics (some blocks have in the past, but most are just boring midrange battles with little variety). I'm not suggesting that any rare cube could ever get it's power level that low to be confused with traditional limited (impossible), but I do want to keep some of the "swingy" pieces in the cube because they can be fun when you make them work (and sometimes they serve as a "luck" equalizer - no one would have fun playing if the best player always won).

That's the key for me though - you have to put energy into making some of the more powerful cards work. If it's something that a single card just does on it's own, those are the cards I don't really want to play (maybe Polukranos is that kind of card though but green really needs the help honestly it sort of sucks without these types of dudes). Pod feels like a card that you need to exercise some deck building with. You can't just run it in any Gx deck and have it do anything useful most of the time. It must be combo'd with ETB dudes or with some graveyard shenanigans to really be worth all the setup. And you can't just build a deck around a single copy so you have to build a deck that stands on it's own. I don't know, it certainly can be abused but it's not something like Baneslayer that is just an auto-include/windmill slam in every deck that can cast it. Those are the cards I detest.

I see this to also be true of things like opposition and Massacre Wurm even. Are they really strong cards? Yes. Are they fairly easy to get value out of? Yes. But some work is required. You can't run ramp and drop the Wurm. I mean, you can but you probably 3 for 1'd yourself in the process. Even in re-animator, you usually have looters on the board, so that guy is not my first choice for that deck (unless I'm getting cute with living end).

A lot of this is perception too. Guys (in my group anyway) don't feel violated when a guy steals a dude with control magic/Treachery (hey, you played it I just took it). They didn't like Bribery though because it couldn't be defended against. Treachery is better than Bribery in a vacuum, but Bribery just feels worse. So it got cut instead.