This cube looks amazing! I love this kind of thing. If I ever pass through Alabama I'm gunna find you.
anotak's cube (budget-ish)
- Thread starter anotak
- Start date
I really am happy to win with that deck from the previous post because there were several cards I won with that were getting ragged on for either being "awful" in this format by at least one person, including Trading Post, Void, Sire of Insanity, Shard Phoenix, and Moltensteel Dragon. Some of these cards I feel like I shouldn't have to prove because of their constructed history but whatever.
I need to do something with white, it seems weak right now as a control color or an aggro color.
I need to do something with white, it seems weak right now as a control color or an aggro color.
If you're ever near the Auburn area feel free to pm me, I'd appreciate any input people would have into this.
White control probably wants one more cheap sweeper (Hallowed Burial?), a handful of walls (of omen), maybe a touch of lifegain, and a big finisher or two (along the lines of a Sun Titan, Angel of Serenity, or new Elspeth).
White aggro can be a tougher nut to crack. Equipment is usually the easiest way to boost a flagging aggro archetype, and white has a plethora of small but hardy bodies to carry such gear (especially if it's Grafted). Anthems on a stick are generally good, so you might consider Mikaeus, the Lunarch or Mirror Entity, among other options.
Sweet decklists, btw! That UR list looks pretty sick, and I'm always thrilled when one of my players attempts the archetype, because it's not for the faint of heart. I suspect that overall, your curve could still stand to shift a little lower, as only two aggro decks out of eight drafted feels a bit light, especially in light of the plethora of midrange decks. It often makes for better and more varied gameplay when all of the major camps are represented (aggro / midrange / control), and from your latest set of decks, I wonder if midrange is currently crowding out the other options as far as viability goes.
White aggro can be a tougher nut to crack. Equipment is usually the easiest way to boost a flagging aggro archetype, and white has a plethora of small but hardy bodies to carry such gear (especially if it's Grafted). Anthems on a stick are generally good, so you might consider Mikaeus, the Lunarch or Mirror Entity, among other options.
Sweet decklists, btw! That UR list looks pretty sick, and I'm always thrilled when one of my players attempts the archetype, because it's not for the faint of heart. I suspect that overall, your curve could still stand to shift a little lower, as only two aggro decks out of eight drafted feels a bit light, especially in light of the plethora of midrange decks. It often makes for better and more varied gameplay when all of the major camps are represented (aggro / midrange / control), and from your latest set of decks, I wonder if midrange is currently crowding out the other options as far as viability goes.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Every card has to prove it's spot in your cube, regardless of constructed history! How many cards are great only because of their environment? You wouldn't add Kor Firewalker, but he saw tons of play in his day! Same with Donate, Drain Life, Watchwolf, etc.
Tarmogoyph, despite his storied history, isn't necessarily a good card for your cube. Make him earn that
White eh? Lemmie take a look...
Alright, going through your curve:
Your 1 drop section seems a little anemic. Consider doubling up on Elite Vanguard, or adding more individual guys like Soldier of the Pantheon (love this guy by the way), Isaumaru, or Savannah Lions. Student of Warfare is another excellent addition which gives white some nice flood protection.
Following on from Above, the 2 drop slot could use some work as well. To help the control decks, Wall of Omens is a great card. The main problem I'm seeing is the casting costs though. The difference between and is huge, especially in aggro decks where you need to not stumble in the early game to keep the pressure on. The absolutely beautiful Mistral Charger is a nice addition to the stable, Imposing Sovrein and Accorder Paladin work well, as do Cloistered Youth (This card was bad in innistrad because of ground stalls, which you cube will naturally have less of), and a fan favorite: Fencing Ace who does some sweet sweet stuff sometimes These will likely serve your drafters better than Boros Mastiff, Sigiled Paladin, Spectral Rider, or Kor Aeronaut (Seriously, how many times have people kicked that thing?)
Transcendent Master and Gideon's Avenger are kinda just big dumb guys, and that's usually green's purview. Silverblade Paladin is rotating now, and should be easy to pick up, and people seem similarly unexcited for fabled hero. Mirran Crusader also works, but I dislike what protection does to a game of magic. Other nice effects are the token focused creatures: Pianna, Nomad Captain and Soltari Champion, and possibly my favorite white creature of all time: Flickerwisp
4: Neither of these guys are good I'd recommend Emeria Angel, a fine card in both control and aggro, and Galepowder Mage, a card who's subtle power I'm still discovering. Other suggustions include the nice and quirky Guardian Seraph, Hokori, and Seraph of Dawn.
I never found World Queller worked the way I wanted him to Cloudgoat Ranger is cheap and incredibly effective at what he does, and Battlegrace Angel is almost as good as baneslayer angel is.
and up: I think Angelic Arbiter came with the commander decks, and that card is bonkers fun. Sun Titan has a lot of play to him as well, and should be real cheap now that he's not seeing play anywhere, and just got reprinted. (My heart remains with the prerelease version though. Dat Halo)
Noncreatures: Not too much I see questionable here. I've personally never played with Restore Balance, but that's up to you. I cut balance a while back because most of the time it did nothing, and when it did it was horrible for the other person. Consider adding another cheap wrath (Another Day of Judgement, maybe Rout or Hallowed Burial?) to help control, or my personal favorite removal spell: Flashafism.
Tarmogoyph, despite his storied history, isn't necessarily a good card for your cube. Make him earn that
White eh? Lemmie take a look...
Alright, going through your curve:
Your 1 drop section seems a little anemic. Consider doubling up on Elite Vanguard, or adding more individual guys like Soldier of the Pantheon (love this guy by the way), Isaumaru, or Savannah Lions. Student of Warfare is another excellent addition which gives white some nice flood protection. Following on from Above, the 2 drop slot could use some work as well. To help the control decks, Wall of Omens is a great card. The main problem I'm seeing is the casting costs though. The difference between and is huge, especially in aggro decks where you need to not stumble in the early game to keep the pressure on. The absolutely beautiful Mistral Charger is a nice addition to the stable, Imposing Sovrein and Accorder Paladin work well, as do Cloistered Youth (This card was bad in innistrad because of ground stalls, which you cube will naturally have less of), and a fan favorite: Fencing Ace who does some sweet sweet stuff sometimes These will likely serve your drafters better than Boros Mastiff, Sigiled Paladin, Spectral Rider, or Kor Aeronaut (Seriously, how many times have people kicked that thing?) Transcendent Master and Gideon's Avenger are kinda just big dumb guys, and that's usually green's purview. Silverblade Paladin is rotating now, and should be easy to pick up, and people seem similarly unexcited for fabled hero. Mirran Crusader also works, but I dislike what protection does to a game of magic. Other nice effects are the token focused creatures: Pianna, Nomad Captain and Soltari Champion, and possibly my favorite white creature of all time: Flickerwisp4: Neither of these guys are good
I'd recommend Emeria Angel, a fine card in both control and aggro, and Galepowder Mage, a card who's subtle power I'm still discovering. Other suggustions include the nice and quirky Guardian Seraph, Hokori, and Seraph of Dawn. I never found World Queller worked the way I wanted him to Cloudgoat Ranger is cheap and incredibly effective at what he does, and Battlegrace Angel is almost as good as baneslayer angel is. and up: I think Angelic Arbiter came with the commander decks, and that card is bonkers fun. Sun Titan has a lot of play to him as well, and should be real cheap now that he's not seeing play anywhere, and just got reprinted. (My heart remains with the prerelease version though. Dat Halo)Noncreatures: Not too much I see questionable here. I've personally never played with Restore Balance, but that's up to you. I cut balance a while back because most of the time it did nothing, and when it did it was horrible for the other person. Consider adding another cheap wrath (Another Day of Judgement, maybe Rout or Hallowed Burial?) to help control, or my personal favorite removal spell: Flashafism.
Midrange is probably too good, yeah. Though I'm not sure if the Maelstrom Wanderer decks can be called that.
I cut Wall of Omens and a lot of the lifegain cards in the purge where I cut the majority of things that can hose aggro to try to help it out some, I might add some back.
The one/two drops were sort of just dumped in there for lack of better cards, I've actually been looking most for the cards you've mentioned there(except mirran crusader, I don't like that either). I could just double up on stormfront pegasus instead of mistral rider.
Gideon's Avenger has been really sweet with Tangle Wire and Dawnglare Invoker, but I'm definitely open to cutting it.
I have Angelic Arbiter, I'll try it out.
and yeah the 4 drops are sort of awful, hm.
World Queller is one of the few white cards that has worked out great actually.
Restore Balance.... is awkward. Nobody has drafted it yet. I want to see someone try it before I cut it so I'll wait a few more on that.
oh man I should get a Restoration Angel and Angel Of Serenity they arent like 30 bucks anymore.
I'll look through my sweepers for a second one.
I was thinking of getting a walker of every color, I'm pretty set on which ones I want for the other colors, but what do y'all think would be the most interesting white walker to pick out of the less than $20 ones (so not 4/6 mana elspeth i guess)? I'm sort of working on a budget is the main issue.
I cut Wall of Omens and a lot of the lifegain cards in the purge where I cut the majority of things that can hose aggro to try to help it out some, I might add some back.
The one/two drops were sort of just dumped in there for lack of better cards, I've actually been looking most for the cards you've mentioned there(except mirran crusader, I don't like that either). I could just double up on stormfront pegasus instead of mistral rider.
Gideon's Avenger has been really sweet with Tangle Wire and Dawnglare Invoker, but I'm definitely open to cutting it.
I have Angelic Arbiter, I'll try it out.
and yeah the 4 drops are sort of awful, hm.
World Queller is one of the few white cards that has worked out great actually.
Restore Balance.... is awkward. Nobody has drafted it yet. I want to see someone try it before I cut it so I'll wait a few more on that.
oh man I should get a Restoration Angel and Angel Of Serenity they arent like 30 bucks anymore.
I'll look through my sweepers for a second one.
I was thinking of getting a walker of every color, I'm pretty set on which ones I want for the other colors, but what do y'all think would be the most interesting white walker to pick out of the less than $20 ones (so not 4/6 mana elspeth i guess)? I'm sort of working on a budget is the main issue.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
The problem I have with Dawnglare Invoker is that he's either super weak, or a 1 sided moat. I think if it and tangle wire are working, they don't need a guy to profit from that, any old 3 drop will do.
Considering balance itself is quite cheap (3$ on starcity, and that's STARCITY) it might encourage drafters a bit more, assuming you aren't cutting it.
In terms of walkers, some with high fun-to-money ratios are:
-Ajani Goldmane
-Chandra, the Firebrand
-Garruk Relentless
-Garruk Wildspeaker
-Jace Beleren
-Koth of the Hammer
-Sarkhan the Mad (if you wanna do the gravecrawler thang)
-Ral Zarek is 10$ish, but he's super awesome
-Ajani Vengeant is 7$ give or take, but he is probably the most powerful for your buck.
I wouldn't limit yourself to just 1 walker per color, since that really does shove out the less powerful but still sweet ones like Beleran. For a guy who falls somewhere between Theiving Magpie and Howling Mine, he's an awesome card.
Like any other card, walkers aren't inherrently overpowered. Include the ones that work, if the aggro decks are fine then they wont be a problem
Considering balance itself is quite cheap (3$ on starcity, and that's STARCITY) it might encourage drafters a bit more, assuming you aren't cutting it.
In terms of walkers, some with high fun-to-money ratios are:
-Ajani Goldmane
-Chandra, the Firebrand
-Garruk Relentless
-Garruk Wildspeaker
-Jace Beleren
-Koth of the Hammer
-Sarkhan the Mad (if you wanna do the gravecrawler thang)
-Ral Zarek is 10$ish, but he's super awesome
-Ajani Vengeant is 7$ give or take, but he is probably the most powerful for your buck.
I wouldn't limit yourself to just 1 walker per color, since that really does shove out the less powerful but still sweet ones like Beleran. For a guy who falls somewhere between Theiving Magpie and Howling Mine, he's an awesome card.
Like any other card, walkers aren't inherrently overpowered. Include the ones that work, if the aggro decks are fine then they wont be a problem
- land experiment #2: guildgates were scarslands this time
- thanks for the suggestions y'all, some of them have already been inplemented although i need to get some of the other cards.
- junk rites won for the first time
3-0
Junk Rites
first pick: Unburial Rites
1-2 Esper
first pick: Vesuvan Shapeshifter
1-2 RUG ramp
first pick: Maelstrom Wanderer
i drafted this, it was pretty awful, no removal
boros 2-1
first pick: Magma Jet
Grixis 2-1
first pick: Electrolyze
- thanks for the suggestions y'all, some of them have already been inplemented although i need to get some of the other cards.
- junk rites won for the first time
3-0
Junk Rites
first pick: Unburial Rites
Junk Rites
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1-2 Esper
first pick: Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Esper
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1-2 RUG ramp
first pick: Maelstrom Wanderer
i drafted this, it was pretty awful, no removal
RUG Ramp
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boros 2-1
first pick: Magma Jet
Boros
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Grixis 2-1
first pick: Electrolyze
Grixis
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BUG
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Chris Taylor
Contributor
Do you consider unburial rites as an orzhov card? It and obzedats aid really does look to push an archetype, I'm surprised junk rites took this long to surface
Did anyone reanimate a noncreature with aid?
Did anyone reanimate a noncreature with aid?
The archetype has been present several times, it just has never won.Do you consider unburial rites as an orzhov card? It and obzedats aid really does look to push an archetype, I'm surprised junk rites took this long to surface
Did anyone reanimate a noncreature with aid?
I believe I've seen oblivion stone get reanimated so far? Not positive on that. I don't have any walkers yet.
I should probably consider unburial an orzhov card honestly, I have it listed under black atm though.
Aoret
Developer
Hey Anotak. Cool cube, you're off to a great start here! It sounds like your collection ranges from around the same era as mine does (having mostly Alara block forwards, with some other stuff sprinkled in).
I just ran through a draft of your cube on CubeTutor and I'd say my best recommendation for you is to examine closely the power level disparity within your cube. There were a number of picks where I saw cards from power-maxed 360 cubes sitting beside cards that would fit better in something like my low power level cube. That isn't always a bad thing, and many cards are context dependent, but particularly in the case of creatures this can be a problem.
One exercise that can be helpful is to look at which cards are being underdrafted. You can do this by having people write down their 14th and 15th picks, or you can just go on cubetutor and spam pack generation, noting particularly which cards seem like obvious first picks, and which cards don't interest you whatsoever. From there, you have to decide whether to elevate the power level of your cube to be closer to the "first pick" quality cards, or to yank out some of those obviously amazing cards. (This is where opinions differ quite a bit. Some people like the really bomby obvious first pick stuff like Jitte and some people think it dumbs the format down)
As mentioned previously in this thread, every card has to justify itself to you, so constantly challenge them when you examine your list. If a card doesn't have a clear place in your mind (preferably across multiple archetypes), you should consider what you could replace it with that would.
I just ran through a draft of your cube on CubeTutor and I'd say my best recommendation for you is to examine closely the power level disparity within your cube. There were a number of picks where I saw cards from power-maxed 360 cubes sitting beside cards that would fit better in something like my low power level cube. That isn't always a bad thing, and many cards are context dependent, but particularly in the case of creatures this can be a problem.
One exercise that can be helpful is to look at which cards are being underdrafted. You can do this by having people write down their 14th and 15th picks, or you can just go on cubetutor and spam pack generation, noting particularly which cards seem like obvious first picks, and which cards don't interest you whatsoever. From there, you have to decide whether to elevate the power level of your cube to be closer to the "first pick" quality cards, or to yank out some of those obviously amazing cards. (This is where opinions differ quite a bit. Some people like the really bomby obvious first pick stuff like Jitte and some people think it dumbs the format down)
As mentioned previously in this thread, every card has to justify itself to you, so constantly challenge them when you examine your list. If a card doesn't have a clear place in your mind (preferably across multiple archetypes), you should consider what you could replace it with that would.
- Guildgates were shocks for this draft. If I get around to using a printer I'm just going to proxy 10 shocks 10 fetches 5 wedgelands
- Aggro status is fine, still could use some work, but it's not the most hurting archetype right now imo
- Primarily blue control still seems weak. Blue player: "You should cut Creeping Renaissance and every card that says cascade.". As a game designer I've learned that when people complain about something, there is something wrong, but it is very often not what they are complaining about. I'm gonna force draft blue control next time and see how it feels. Kevin if you come in here and read this please don't hate draft me.
- white weenies still sucks, I might just cut the WW guys for the other 3 stormfront pegasi I have. White everything else is much much better with the last set of changes.
- I'm not really sure what to do with my simic section. I threw in Fathom Mage just for there to be something more archetype defining than... Simic Charm. I guess Urban Evolution is very strong my environment, but it is just one card. I need to find something cool for this.
- My mono-red aggro opponent Chaos Warped my trading post in response to my first activation. As I'm shuffling I joke about how brutal it'd be if I just flip it again and get to activate twice in one turn and gain 8. This happens.
- I forced monoblack, and sat by the 4c deck, and on his other side was the GW deck, meaning he got most of the fixing wasnt in high demand right by him.
- I Chainer, Dementia Mastered back my opponent's Venser, Shaper Savant to counter a spell. This card will never cease to be one of my favorite cards
- Attrition + Trading Post is a hilarious setup
Here's my post from the 3-0 thread:
2-1:
First Pick: Shrine of Burning Rage "the best card in your cube"
he had a version with green splash and a version with black that he sideboarded in and out of. I'm not sure exactly which decklist got used the most but right in front of me i have these 23 so I'm gonna put this
2-1
First Pick: Path to Exile
Almost every game I heard either
"Genesis Wave For 8?" *hits woodfall primus*
"Green Sun's for 8?" *gets woodfall primus*
1-2
monoblack
first pick: Hellrider
I forced this just because. Only picked Hellrider because there were no black cards or artifacts in my first pack and it felt like the strongest card. Plus I considered just switching to that archetype but it wasn't open at all considering the person directly upstream to me was in red. I somehow ended up light on playables despite being monoblack. I also didn't have enough real removal. I would have a pack where there's a choice between Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Ultimate Price, and pick the bomb. Sure first pack first pick it'd probably be Mikaeus, but after a while. I hate drafted Creeping Renaissance out of a pack of no black cards, splashed for it because drawing 5+ cards with flashback is insane if you can get to that point.
the last 2 decks got sort of mixed together with other stuff, I'm going to try to put what I think I can remember from them based on the cards that are here:
weird Jund
first pick: Tangle Wire
1-2
0-3
grixis control
first pick: Fact or Fiction
I remember a bit more about this one because I played against it. I top decked Fleshbag Marauder the turn he played Sphinx of Jwar Isle both times. hrm
- Aggro status is fine, still could use some work, but it's not the most hurting archetype right now imo
- Primarily blue control still seems weak. Blue player: "You should cut Creeping Renaissance and every card that says cascade.". As a game designer I've learned that when people complain about something, there is something wrong, but it is very often not what they are complaining about. I'm gonna force draft blue control next time and see how it feels. Kevin if you come in here and read this please don't hate draft me.
- white weenies still sucks, I might just cut the WW guys for the other 3 stormfront pegasi I have. White everything else is much much better with the last set of changes.
- I'm not really sure what to do with my simic section. I threw in Fathom Mage just for there to be something more archetype defining than... Simic Charm. I guess Urban Evolution is very strong my environment, but it is just one card. I need to find something cool for this.
- My mono-red aggro opponent Chaos Warped my trading post in response to my first activation. As I'm shuffling I joke about how brutal it'd be if I just flip it again and get to activate twice in one turn and gain 8. This happens.
- I forced monoblack, and sat by the 4c deck, and on his other side was the GW deck, meaning he got most of the fixing wasnt in high demand right by him.
- I Chainer, Dementia Mastered back my opponent's Venser, Shaper Savant to counter a spell. This card will never cease to be one of my favorite cards
- Attrition + Trading Post is a hilarious setup
Here's my post from the 3-0 thread:
been sick all last week so didn't happen much there. had a 6man finally.
"I picked too much manafixing so I don't have enough playables, this deck is awful" *3-0s draft*
2-1:
First Pick: Shrine of Burning Rage "the best card in your cube"
he had a version with green splash and a version with black that he sideboarded in and out of. I'm not sure exactly which decklist got used the most but right in front of me i have these 23 so I'm gonna put this
Red
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2-1
First Pick: Path to Exile
Almost every game I heard either
"Genesis Wave For 8?" *hits woodfall primus*
"Green Sun's for 8?" *gets woodfall primus*
GW rampenstein
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1-2
monoblack
first pick: Hellrider
I forced this just because. Only picked Hellrider because there were no black cards or artifacts in my first pack and it felt like the strongest card. Plus I considered just switching to that archetype but it wasn't open at all considering the person directly upstream to me was in red. I somehow ended up light on playables despite being monoblack. I also didn't have enough real removal. I would have a pack where there's a choice between Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Ultimate Price, and pick the bomb. Sure first pack first pick it'd probably be Mikaeus, but after a while. I hate drafted Creeping Renaissance out of a pack of no black cards, splashed for it because drawing 5+ cards with flashback is insane if you can get to that point.
monoblack
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the last 2 decks got sort of mixed together with other stuff, I'm going to try to put what I think I can remember from them based on the cards that are here:
weird Jund
first pick: Tangle Wire
1-2
weird jund
| | | | |
0-3
grixis control
first pick: Fact or Fiction
I remember a bit more about this one because I played against it. I top decked Fleshbag Marauder the turn he played Sphinx of Jwar Isle both times. hrm
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Pretty much this. Sometimes when people whine about a card or archetype being either too weak or too strong, they're right on the money. But other times they're just hitting a symptom of a larger problem. I like your solution of forcing the archetype to put yourself in those shoes and see with your own eyes whether something needs buffing or nerfing.
Edric? That's the only real Simic card that I find drives people into an archetype, that being UG tempo. There's also Progenitor Mimic, which seems hilarious; it's not something I've tried yet, but I think I'm going to test it out in place of boring ol' Simic Sky Swallower.
It might be a little slow, depending on your cube. My cube isn't the fastest. If he has the time to get online though, he is the nuts. Especially with the classic Fleshbag Marauder. In my game against the ramp deck I took his Vorapede with the undying trigger on the stack.
He used to be my EDH general of choice before I got fed up with not being able to do shit about enchantments except oblivion stone
oh man, Progenitor Mimic would be right at home in this environment, this is basically giant value guys the cube. I think my friend has one, I'll see about that. I'd like an Edric too but I'm not sure how good he can be in the environment. I'd much rather have him than simic charm though.
CML
Contributor
Some time ago there was a gentleman on this forum who asked for help on improving his Orzhov section, to which he had recently added Obzedat's Aid. If I was trying to buff Azorius and was including a copy of Windreaper Falcon, wouldn't you guys tell me?
Prog Mimic and Edric are both quite strong, Edric esp., I'm kind of digging Edric effects now that Bident murdered a pro tour
Prog Mimic and Edric are both quite strong, Edric esp., I'm kind of digging Edric effects now that Bident murdered a pro tour
So you're saying to cut Obzedat's Aid? Hm, it's gotten picked and played but admittedly it isn't a very high pick. I might do this, so far it hasn't done anything that really really justifies it over another reanimation spell.
CML
Contributor
contrary to popular belief i have a pretty high threshold for including multicolor cards and Aid isn't even close. it's way worse than mono-colored options like Makeshift Mannequin, even, to say nothing of the budget-friendly suite of Exhume, Reanimate, Animate Dead, Necromancy.
quickly, other ideas for cuts, mainly based on power level issues (i also advocate use of proxies):
dawnglare -- as above
odric -- too bad to justify running over other 4's that might be a little more $ but you know
world queller -- never works
luminarch ascension -- does nothing
seance -- does nothing
skaab ruinator -- will not be cast
surrakar spellblade -- will not hit
warden of evos isle -- kinda bad
muddle the mixture -- combo constructed card only pretty much (any 2's worth paying 5 for?)
mystic retrieval, polymorph, runner's bane -- eh whatever happened to narcolepsy and rapid hybridization
grim discovery -- bleh
stitch together -- GL getting threshold
grim lavamancer -- GL activating often
barrage of expendables -- 1 is a lot to activate
zektar shrine expedition -- combo card (burn combo that is)
wildheart invoker -- underpowered
bramblecrush -- ditto
creeping renaissance -- ditto
pit fight -- eh
fathom mage -- eh
desolate lighthouse -- hard to justify colorless land
top end looks tastefully managed, though when my cube was similar to this i had trouble getting the aggro decks to, you know, DO anything
quickly, other ideas for cuts, mainly based on power level issues (i also advocate use of proxies):
dawnglare -- as above
odric -- too bad to justify running over other 4's that might be a little more $ but you know
world queller -- never works
luminarch ascension -- does nothing
seance -- does nothing
skaab ruinator -- will not be cast
surrakar spellblade -- will not hit
warden of evos isle -- kinda bad
muddle the mixture -- combo constructed card only pretty much (any 2's worth paying 5 for?)
mystic retrieval, polymorph, runner's bane -- eh whatever happened to narcolepsy and rapid hybridization
grim discovery -- bleh
stitch together -- GL getting threshold
grim lavamancer -- GL activating often
barrage of expendables -- 1 is a lot to activate
zektar shrine expedition -- combo card (burn combo that is)
wildheart invoker -- underpowered
bramblecrush -- ditto
creeping renaissance -- ditto
pit fight -- eh
fathom mage -- eh
desolate lighthouse -- hard to justify colorless land
top end looks tastefully managed, though when my cube was similar to this i had trouble getting the aggro decks to, you know, DO anything
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Obzedat's Aide does seem like worse 2 color zombify 99% of the time, and unburial rites probably does what you want 5 mana reanimation spells to be doing.
dawnglare invoker -- This card is all worst case sinerios: Either 8 mana is too much, or they don't get a combat step, or they remove it.
odric -- This guy never really did anything for me, though his best case is quite good. I actually noticed there are but 3 cards in your cube that are white and cost 4. Try CMLs personal favorite Galepowder Mage, or some less expensive ones like Emeria Angel, or Hero of Bladehold
luminarch ascension -- I find if this card is good, your cube might need some tweaking.
seance -- This needs a lot of time and a lot of creatures with strong ETB triggers to die to be better than something like Momentary Blink.
skaab ruinator -- I had trouble casting Stitched Drake when he was in my cube, and every color had 65% creatures at the time.
surrakar spellblade -- Creatures with sabateur triggers (like this guy) need evasion to be good.
warden of evos isle -- Does blue need creature specific accelleration?
muddle the mixture -- Tutoring is only good if the card you're getting is worth giving up a card and tempo for. I've found that almost all the time, that means the card is too good.
mystic retrieval, polymorph, runner's bane -- Narcolepsy I like, Rapid hybridization maybe, Polymorph doesn't do what you want it too, and Mystic retrival is too slow
grim discovery -- You have 3 total lands that can sac themselves in this cube, so this is worse raise dead most of the time (Also don't run raise dead, it's not that great)
grim lavamancer -- CML is full of shit, this card is great. Don't pay attention to him.
barrage of expendables -- He's right here, the mana really kills it. Since you'll probably be curving out, you need to stop playing guys to threaten the sac activation, which is bad
wildheart invoker -- 8 mana, still a lot. There are better green 4s if you just want him for his body (slut!)
bramblecrush -- This card is better than it looks, but you don't seem to have many planeswalkers, the main reason to run it.
creeping renaissance -- This card is super slow. Think of the situations where this is better than Morbid Plunder, and then think of how likely those are. Drawing cards from your graveyard is almost always harder than from your library.
dawnglare invoker -- This card is all worst case sinerios: Either 8 mana is too much, or they don't get a combat step, or they remove it.
odric -- This guy never really did anything for me, though his best case is quite good. I actually noticed there are but 3 cards in your cube that are white and cost 4. Try CMLs personal favorite Galepowder Mage, or some less expensive ones like Emeria Angel, or Hero of Bladehold
luminarch ascension -- I find if this card is good, your cube might need some tweaking.
seance -- This needs a lot of time and a lot of creatures with strong ETB triggers to die to be better than something like Momentary Blink.
skaab ruinator -- I had trouble casting Stitched Drake when he was in my cube, and every color had 65% creatures at the time.
surrakar spellblade -- Creatures with sabateur triggers (like this guy) need evasion to be good.
warden of evos isle -- Does blue need creature specific accelleration?
muddle the mixture -- Tutoring is only good if the card you're getting is worth giving up a card and tempo for. I've found that almost all the time, that means the card is too good.
mystic retrieval, polymorph, runner's bane -- Narcolepsy I like, Rapid hybridization maybe, Polymorph doesn't do what you want it too, and Mystic retrival is too slow
grim discovery -- You have 3 total lands that can sac themselves in this cube, so this is worse raise dead most of the time (Also don't run raise dead, it's not that great)
grim lavamancer -- CML is full of shit, this card is great. Don't pay attention to him.
barrage of expendables -- He's right here, the mana really kills it. Since you'll probably be curving out, you need to stop playing guys to threaten the sac activation, which is bad
wildheart invoker -- 8 mana, still a lot. There are better green 4s if you just want him for his body (slut!)
bramblecrush -- This card is better than it looks, but you don't seem to have many planeswalkers, the main reason to run it.
creeping renaissance -- This card is super slow. Think of the situations where this is better than Morbid Plunder, and then think of how likely those are. Drawing cards from your graveyard is almost always harder than from your library.
I'm pushing a bit of a graveyard theme but 2 mana exhume / animate dead etc isn't my idea of a fun time. (edit: I mean in my drafts, i'm fine with in legacy and all that or other people's cube)
dawnglare is a bit bad yes
odric - don't have the other 4s... probably going to just proxy them. I need to come up with a definite plan if I start proxying beyond what I have planned for the lands.
world queller - this guy has been better than everyone else has been saying on here, i dunno what's up.
luminarch - this is actually decent in my environment. my cube does need some tweaking though.
seance - this does plenty, don't sell this card short. but yeah, it is a bit slow and isn't picked very highly anymore. i want to push a graveyard theme though. and it doesn't just work with etbs, sac outlets are quite nice too
skaab ruinator - i want to push a yard theme
surrakar spellblade - yeah this guy is bad
warden - ok good point
muddle the mixture - i've actually already been looking for a good cut for this, i just haven't seen anything that i own or is in local trade binders. might break singleton for a 2nd mana leak or something. maybe i should just get some rune snags to help blue and also push the graveyard thing more
polymorph - isn't in there anymore, i guess i didn't make the change in the list? (weird) I cannot for the life of me remember what I put in instead. damn I guess it is time to do one of those full cube inventories that are so tiresome.
runner's bane - yeah narcolepsy would be better
mystic retrieval - this card is actually really strong in this cube believe it or not, and it is much beloved by my drafters
grim discovery - yeah i could see cutting this, hm. I'm planning on improving loam though and it is nice to have a 2nd effect that can trigger that stuff even if it is much weaker
stitch together - we get threshold plenty actually
grim lavamancer - this card is great?
barrage of expendables - yeah i'm just gonna get a goblin bombardment or print one out
zektar shrine expedition - this hits pretty much every time and hits like a truck. not sure what the problem is with it?
wildheart invoker - yeah i could see this being a cut. I have an elves theme that I'm not particularly attached to but yeah.
bramblecrush - this is actually pretty decent in here. planning to get some walkers.
creeping renaissance - i thought this card was weak when i first made my initial 360, it was just a slot-filler. my players thought the same. we realized we were very very very wrong for this environment. it has proven to be one of the absolute strongest cards in this cube. it is better than morbid plunder every time
pit fight - do you have a better choice for green creature removal? sure, the card is pretty weak but it fills a slot
fathom mage - yeah, I guess prog rock mimic or edric goes here
desolate lighthouse - this thing has been quite good and supports the various graveyard gimmicks
So I have a question here: Will my drafters have more fun if I move into a direction where stuff like Creeping Renaissance isn't good? Because it is liked by my drafters. Am I objectively wrong, or is it just not your cup of tea?
dawnglare is a bit bad yes
odric - don't have the other 4s... probably going to just proxy them. I need to come up with a definite plan if I start proxying beyond what I have planned for the lands.
world queller - this guy has been better than everyone else has been saying on here, i dunno what's up.
luminarch - this is actually decent in my environment. my cube does need some tweaking though.
seance - this does plenty, don't sell this card short. but yeah, it is a bit slow and isn't picked very highly anymore. i want to push a graveyard theme though. and it doesn't just work with etbs, sac outlets are quite nice too
skaab ruinator - i want to push a yard theme
surrakar spellblade - yeah this guy is bad
warden - ok good point
muddle the mixture - i've actually already been looking for a good cut for this, i just haven't seen anything that i own or is in local trade binders. might break singleton for a 2nd mana leak or something. maybe i should just get some rune snags to help blue and also push the graveyard thing more
polymorph - isn't in there anymore, i guess i didn't make the change in the list? (weird) I cannot for the life of me remember what I put in instead. damn I guess it is time to do one of those full cube inventories that are so tiresome.
runner's bane - yeah narcolepsy would be better
mystic retrieval - this card is actually really strong in this cube believe it or not, and it is much beloved by my drafters
grim discovery - yeah i could see cutting this, hm. I'm planning on improving loam though and it is nice to have a 2nd effect that can trigger that stuff even if it is much weaker
stitch together - we get threshold plenty actually
grim lavamancer - this card is great?
barrage of expendables - yeah i'm just gonna get a goblin bombardment or print one out
zektar shrine expedition - this hits pretty much every time and hits like a truck. not sure what the problem is with it?
wildheart invoker - yeah i could see this being a cut. I have an elves theme that I'm not particularly attached to but yeah.
bramblecrush - this is actually pretty decent in here. planning to get some walkers.
creeping renaissance - i thought this card was weak when i first made my initial 360, it was just a slot-filler. my players thought the same. we realized we were very very very wrong for this environment. it has proven to be one of the absolute strongest cards in this cube. it is better than morbid plunder every time
pit fight - do you have a better choice for green creature removal? sure, the card is pretty weak but it fills a slot
fathom mage - yeah, I guess prog rock mimic or edric goes here
desolate lighthouse - this thing has been quite good and supports the various graveyard gimmicks
So I have a question here: Will my drafters have more fun if I move into a direction where stuff like Creeping Renaissance isn't good? Because it is liked by my drafters. Am I objectively wrong, or is it just not your cup of tea?
CML
Contributor
eh who knows. my tastes run towards "legacy-style" games but THS limited is nice too. i blame usman and friends for a) being "casual" players who value creativity, b) fetishizing power maximization to the point where we wonder even here if a "creeping renaissance"-style environment could be "objectively wrong," c) ergo being massive hypocrites.
"fun maximization" as i see it is supposed to be hard to define with a lot of subjective hand-waving, but one axiom that's served me well (that modern set design does not agree with) is "flat power curve." power curve is the issue with most "casual play" (I wrote an article about it http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10597 here) and draft / cube fix that. as cube designers it is our duty to not include cards that "feel bad" to pass i.e. Batterskull in your Cube or "feel bad" when picked and played and just bad (like some of my more gratuitous utility-land choices of yore). creeping renaissance seems like it'd fit into the latter category i.e. it was rarely playable in ISD draft, which could make it a tough fit in even your cube in the sense of "runner's bane is bad."
however take everything with a grain of salt! i've never drafted your cube, and maybe renaissance is good due to the slow speed. for example, threshold seems like it would take vast amounts of time to turn on in this cube, but i must not have guessed at its leisurely, gentlemanly pace to so readily condemn stitch together. one doesn't need to be jacob wilson beating for 3 with a goose t4 for threshold to be cool! (the genesis wave for 8 post shoulda tipped me off.)
there is an endless tension between "giving drafters what they want" and "improving the environment for them / knowing what they want better than they do," which NWO glibly tries to resolve in the manner of advertisements. (ever wonder why the style of the mothership is what it is?)
last thing: mana leak #2: miscalculation
"fun maximization" as i see it is supposed to be hard to define with a lot of subjective hand-waving, but one axiom that's served me well (that modern set design does not agree with) is "flat power curve." power curve is the issue with most "casual play" (I wrote an article about it http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10597 here) and draft / cube fix that. as cube designers it is our duty to not include cards that "feel bad" to pass i.e. Batterskull in your Cube or "feel bad" when picked and played and just bad (like some of my more gratuitous utility-land choices of yore). creeping renaissance seems like it'd fit into the latter category i.e. it was rarely playable in ISD draft, which could make it a tough fit in even your cube in the sense of "runner's bane is bad."
however take everything with a grain of salt! i've never drafted your cube, and maybe renaissance is good due to the slow speed. for example, threshold seems like it would take vast amounts of time to turn on in this cube, but i must not have guessed at its leisurely, gentlemanly pace to so readily condemn stitch together. one doesn't need to be jacob wilson beating for 3 with a goose t4 for threshold to be cool! (the genesis wave for 8 post shoulda tipped me off.)
there is an endless tension between "giving drafters what they want" and "improving the environment for them / knowing what they want better than they do," which NWO glibly tries to resolve in the manner of advertisements. (ever wonder why the style of the mothership is what it is?)
last thing: mana leak #2: miscalculation
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Hmmmm. If I had to guess, if your drafters like it, I'd assume it's preforming well for them, right?
Are they getting back 3+ creatures when casting it? Are they ever dying before they get to use those creatures?
Your removal seems to be at about 18% of the cube, which isn't horribly oppressive, so it's not like their creatures are just being offed before they can do anything, which would make a card like this really appealing. Maybe it's worth dialing down?
My cube is at a reasonably low 12% (3% sweepers), but it does feel a little low. The RB all doom blade/flames of the firebrand deck hasn't shown up in years.
Miscalc is one of my favorite counters. "Wrath of God? Hmmmm... Check your math."
Are they getting back 3+ creatures when casting it? Are they ever dying before they get to use those creatures?
Your removal seems to be at about 18% of the cube, which isn't horribly oppressive, so it's not like their creatures are just being offed before they can do anything, which would make a card like this really appealing. Maybe it's worth dialing down?
My cube is at a reasonably low 12% (3% sweepers), but it does feel a little low. The RB all doom blade/flames of the firebrand deck hasn't shown up in years.
Miscalc is one of my favorite counters. "Wrath of God? Hmmmm... Check your math."
Ach! Why have I never said "check your math"?! I love Miscalculation, though Complicate is definitely my favorite counterspell.
That was one hell of a post, CML. You touched on like four things that I'd been ruminating on myself recently and struggling with.
At the risk of sidetracking anotak's cube thread here, could you expound on this point a little bit? Just over the weekend, I was thinking to myself about how bad Bribery is in my cube these days, as it often nets you the likes of Blade Splicer or Goblin Ruinblaster (unkicked, natch). Yet there's two or three players who love this damn card, and keep picking and maindecking it every time, despite its mediocre performance. On the one hand, I want to give them cards that they're passionate about; on the other, I don't want them to fall for the same red herrings over and over. WHAT DO I DO (and in a more general sense, what do you do when designing your cube environment?)
At the risk of sidetracking anotak's cube thread here, could you expound on this point a little bit? Just over the weekend, I was thinking to myself about how bad Bribery is in my cube these days, as it often nets you the likes of Blade Splicer or Goblin Ruinblaster (unkicked, natch). Yet there's two or three players who love this damn card, and keep picking and maindecking it every time, despite its mediocre performance. On the one hand, I want to give them cards that they're passionate about; on the other, I don't want them to fall for the same red herrings over and over. WHAT DO I DO (and in a more general sense, what do you do when designing your cube environment?)
It's not your job to force players to play optimally. In fact, you should give players all sorts of chances for interesting suboptimality. This is where designing with textures come in. If your cube is filled with interesting effects that are context dependent and not strictly superior to one another, then you're heading in the right direction.
I've no problem with any sidetracking as long as it is productive sidetracking which this is!
spoiler'd quotes for ease of use
I'm a big fan of flattening the power curve, but I don't think a completely flat curve (line?) is desirable or possible. There's also context. Somebody mentioned there being cards here from power-max'd cubes, and sure, they're here, but because of the context they aren't as backbreaking. I'm refreshing and seeing Jason's post about "you should give players all sorts of chances for interesting suboptimality." and that puts what I'm trying to say much more eloquently
I don't think anyone feels bad taking creeping renaissance. The first time someone cascaded enlisted wurm into creeping renaissance for 8, they were pretty sold. At least once someone said they felt bad for not being able to take it.
I've... read this article and I didn't realize it was you. Woah. I played pauper EDH once with 2 other people, lost to Flametongue Kavu. I played Rhox War Monk. Nobody else wanted to play it again. I had my deck in my box for months before I gave up. I think Peasant EDH would've caught on more.
Perhaps I should mention: Most of the drafters were once a pretty active EDH playgroup who all also play competitive formats. We just got fed up with essentially the problem you listed where once decks are tuned, every game is the same despite the format advertising otherwise.
Also please don't compare this to theros draft, that's just cruel and unusual
Creeping Renaissance hits somewhere from 4 to 10. usually around 7 or 8. People do die before they get to use the creatures from it if they are playing against an aggro deck though, but generally it only gets cast later than turn 5 when someone can get value. Games in this cube often go pretty late with a lot of interaction and incremental card advantage.
"I hate to make goofy LSV joke comparisons, but creeping renaissance in your cube is the green sphinx's revelation. " - roughly what one of my friends said the other day
I also have to mention that there is a peasant cube that one of my drafters runs that is pretty much the polar opposite of this cube and we alternate drafting one or the other. The two of us have made a conscious effort to provide a different experience and try to not to include the same cards.
Apparently tonight there is a new 3rd cube in town which I know nothing about, we'll see how that goes.
I'll probably get ahold of miscalculation, though the more I think about it the more I like rune snags
spoiler'd quotes for ease of use
I love legacy too, but I just go play proxy rug delver for that instead of cube (which most days this semester has been what I've done on cube nights before/after cubing). I don't have the money to get into competitive magic, but I play plenty through that outlet because I have a scene of other people who would much rather play against a good deck than whatever budget garbage I would be able to scrape together.
I'm a big fan of flattening the power curve, but I don't think a completely flat curve (line?) is desirable or possible. There's also context. Somebody mentioned there being cards here from power-max'd cubes, and sure, they're here, but because of the context they aren't as backbreaking. I'm refreshing and seeing Jason's post about "you should give players all sorts of chances for interesting suboptimality." and that puts what I'm trying to say much more eloquently
I don't think anyone feels bad taking creeping renaissance. The first time someone cascaded enlisted wurm into creeping renaissance for 8, they were pretty sold. At least once someone said they felt bad for not being able to take it.
I've... read this article and I didn't realize it was you. Woah. I played pauper EDH once with 2 other people, lost to Flametongue Kavu. I played Rhox War Monk. Nobody else wanted to play it again. I had my deck in my box for months before I gave up. I think Peasant EDH would've caught on more.
Perhaps I should mention: Most of the drafters were once a pretty active EDH playgroup who all also play competitive formats. We just got fed up with essentially the problem you listed where once decks are tuned, every game is the same despite the format advertising otherwise.
Also please don't compare this to theros draft, that's just cruel and unusual
Yeah, the removal is probably a bit too much honestly.
Creeping Renaissance hits somewhere from 4 to 10. usually around 7 or 8. People do die before they get to use the creatures from it if they are playing against an aggro deck though, but generally it only gets cast later than turn 5 when someone can get value. Games in this cube often go pretty late with a lot of interaction and incremental card advantage.
"I hate to make goofy LSV joke comparisons, but creeping renaissance in your cube is the green sphinx's revelation. " - roughly what one of my friends said the other day
I also have to mention that there is a peasant cube that one of my drafters runs that is pretty much the polar opposite of this cube and we alternate drafting one or the other. The two of us have made a conscious effort to provide a different experience and try to not to include the same cards.
Apparently tonight there is a new 3rd cube in town which I know nothing about, we'll see how that goes.
I'll probably get ahold of miscalculation, though the more I think about it the more I like rune snags