I would actually consider running Forbidden Alchemy now. Hint.
Card/Deck Black Sheep
- Thread starter CML
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I would actually consider running Forbidden Alchemy now. Hint.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This is one of my favorite cube cards, and I think i'm probably the only one running it:
Its a very powerful, but skill testing tutor. Great with terminus, thought scour, fetchlands, and delver of secrets; there is also probably some BUG deck out there waiting to run it with collected company. At its weakest it helps facilitate UB tool box control, and with thought scour, UB delve decks.
Speaking of which, I think thought scour is just becoming better and better. With delve and graveyard value decks becoming more viable and interesting across multiple colors, it just seems like a great cantrip to break singleton on.
Its a very powerful, but skill testing tutor. Great with terminus, thought scour, fetchlands, and delver of secrets; there is also probably some BUG deck out there waiting to run it with collected company. At its weakest it helps facilitate UB tool box control, and with thought scour, UB delve decks.
Speaking of which, I think thought scour is just becoming better and better. With delve and graveyard value decks becoming more viable and interesting across multiple colors, it just seems like a great cantrip to break singleton on.
Is a fan favorite around here.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I run it as welThis is one of my favorite cube cards, and I think i'm probably the only one running it:
Its a very powerful, but skill testing tutor. Great with terminus, thought scour, fetchlands, and delver of secrets; there is also probably some BUG deck out there waiting to run it with collected company. At its weakest it helps facilitate UB tool box control, and with thought scour, UB delve decks.
Speaking of which, I think thought scour is just becoming better and better. With delve and graveyard value decks becoming more viable and interesting across multiple colors, it just seems like a great cantrip to break singleton on.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I really don't like Forbidden Alchemy in cube. I actually ran it for a while, and fully expected to go gaga over it, so I was surprised myself at how much I disliked it.
- Impulse isn't particularly strong in cube, particularly when cards like Preordain and Brainstorm exist. Tacking on a mana for that functionality is a bad start.
- Seven mana on the backside is a lot. The control decks that are durdling around in the early and midgame no longer have that much time nor mana to continue durdling in the late game; that's the time for the pedal to hit the metal. Similar cards like Sphinx's Revelation only work because they help you continue lollygagging around, but setting up a turn to flashback a Forbidden Alchemy is likely to get you killed.
- You run the risk of milling yourself out by durdling so hard. You laugh, but this situation comes up a lot more than you would expect, going the long game with a forty-card deck.
- It's gold, and I like my gold cards to Do Stuff.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Sounds to me like you don't have a strong enough graveyard focus in UB to abuse this card. Which is okay, cause if all you do is dig for one card with this spell, there's better options available. Dumping cards in your graveyard has to have additional benefits for Alchemy to be worth it imho. It does do stuff in the right deck though!
The whisps vs defiant strike conversation reminds me of my issues with the colour wheel, and, moreover the importance of the designer. I want people to know I have a tonne of objective fondness for defiant strike.
Harms way is a card I get kinda worried about because I've played a lot of shining shoal I'm constructed and limited and I know the frustrations. Either way I still think it has promise but I am so shy.
I would like to remind people of
Honestly so many 4s have such a pointed relevance and cube is so wrought with highlander midgame effects still I wonder if transmute doesn't have a place in our normsy cubes.
Harms way is a card I get kinda worried about because I've played a lot of shining shoal I'm constructed and limited and I know the frustrations. Either way I still think it has promise but I am so shy.
I would like to remind people of
Honestly so many 4s have such a pointed relevance and cube is so wrought with highlander midgame effects still I wonder if transmute doesn't have a place in our normsy cubes.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
The whisps vs defiant strike conversation reminds me of my issues with the colour wheel, and, moreover the importance of the designer. I want people to know I have a tonne of objective fondness for defiant strike.
Harms way is a card I get kinda worried about because I've played a lot of shining shoal I'm constructed and limited and I know the frustrations. Either way I still think it has promise but I am so shy.
I would like to remind people of
Honestly so many 4s have such a pointed relevance and cube is so wrought with highlander midgame effects still I wonder if transmute doesn't have a place in our normsy cubes.
I was wondering how long it would be before you tried to convince me this was playable again
I actually try my darndest to support reanimator in BUG, and Forbidden Alchemy's not great even in the deck where it's supposed to shine. Again, you can't spend seven mana in the late game simply to set up your graveyard - I mean, there's durdling, and then there's durdling, and the latter will get you run over. When you start spending seven mana on turns ten+, you need to be affecting the board, and not just casting air.
Off the top of my head, cards that I prefer over Forbidden Alchemy for filling up the yard:
Transmute is just too clunky. It was clunky back in Ravnica block and cube is so much more efficient (even in my list).
Demonic Tutor isn't even that great in a list that has a flatter power curve like most Riptide cubes (think about it... how many times can you afford to pay 2 more to cast a card even if it means you get to fetch it from your deck? Not saying the effect isn't good, but outside silver bullet cards you don't want to be doing this often). So tacking on 1 to the tutor cost and restricting it to only cards that have a CMC of 4 is just not going to cut it. And the body on Dimir House Guard is all kinds of bad.
Demonic Tutor isn't even that great in a list that has a flatter power curve like most Riptide cubes (think about it... how many times can you afford to pay 2 more to cast a card even if it means you get to fetch it from your deck? Not saying the effect isn't good, but outside silver bullet cards you don't want to be doing this often). So tacking on 1 to the tutor cost and restricting it to only cards that have a CMC of 4 is just not going to cut it. And the body on Dimir House Guard is all kinds of bad.
Is Sphinx of Lost Truths good? I loved playing him in my earliest EDH jank like "Oops, all fatties" Maelstrom Wanderer and "Sphinx tribal!" Sharuum... But that was just 'cuz he was from my favorite plane, Zendikar.
I do like that his kicker is one you actually have to think about, though.
I do like that his kicker is one you actually have to think about, though.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That's not really fair is it? If you're using it to fill up the yard, Compulsive Research does exactly the same as Forbidden Alchemy, except at sorcery speed, and without the option to flash it back when you've got nothing better to do in the late game. If you end up in a topdeck war, a seven mana Impulse will still pull you ahead, and it's a bonus! Alchemy pulls its main weight in graveyard centric decks on the back of theI actually try my darndest to support reanimator in BUG, and Forbidden Alchemy's not great even in the deck where it's supposed to shine. Again, you can't spend seven mana in the late game simply to set up your graveyard - I mean, there's durdling, and then there's durdling, and the latter will get you run over. When you start spending seven mana on turns ten+, you need to be affecting the board, and not just casting air.
Off the top of my head, cards that I prefer over Forbidden Alchemy for filling up the yard:
part. In that regard it's just an instant speed and more flexible Mulch for 1 mana more (that doesn't reveal). I'm not saying that 1 mana isn't relevant, but neither is being an instant. You can keep up countermagic, then Alchemy if they don't play anything worth countering. Profit!Maybe the
flashback throws you off into thinking you have to use it for the spell to be good, but I don't think that's the case at all.I would personally almost consider Alchemy a mono-blue card. I love using it, but there are just so many other things I'd rather put in my Dimir slots. It's such a cool guild!
Hmmmm. I find a direct comparison with Compulsive Research and Forbidden Alchemy a little strange, because as with all other looting cards, they provide much stronger card selection than Impulse-type effects. With Research, you can bin a land when you're pining for raw card advantage, or two spells when you're up to shenanigans; either way, you have a wide swath of cards you can dump, as you can choose from existing cards in hand, as well as the three fresh ones you've drawn. I suppose if you care about raw quantity of cards in your graveyard, for mechanics like delve, that Alchemy fills your yard better, but high velocity cubes like the ones most people are running here don't tend to have a problem stocking graveyards with random riffraff.
I think we're in agreement that the backside of Forbidden Alchemy is pretty unwieldy. If we're looking at its frontside only, I'd almost always prefer one of the spells I listed above before the first Forbidden Alchemy. I think it's a card that looks great on paper, and checks off all the right boxes, but which in practise we found to be generally worse than all of the other available options. For another option that fills the same niche, but at a cheaper rate, Strategic Planning is available, if you really want to go deep.
I think we're in agreement that the backside of Forbidden Alchemy is pretty unwieldy. If we're looking at its frontside only, I'd almost always prefer one of the spells I listed above before the first Forbidden Alchemy. I think it's a card that looks great on paper, and checks off all the right boxes, but which in practise we found to be generally worse than all of the other available options. For another option that fills the same niche, but at a cheaper rate, Strategic Planning is available, if you really want to go deep.
Yeah, I love SoLT. Sphinxes are great.
Does anyone cube with him?
Does anyone cube with him?
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I cube hard and rough with him
If Merfolk Looter's in the conversation, you probably want new Jace instead?
If Merfolk Looter's in the conversation, you probably want new Jace instead?
Aoret
Developer
I know I've been repping new jace super hard in every thread ever lately, but it's only because I thought the card was kinda shitty and I was super wrong. I'd advise you though that if you run a riptidelike cube, new jace is almost always a planeswalker and barely ever a looter. In my experience, you're looking at 1-2 activations off of him at most over the course of a normal game, mostly due to fetchland density and lower curve.
Also, why don't we like Harm's Way? I feel like the card was a ton of fun to play in limited and I've really never minded getting blown out by it. Is it good enough (and interesting enough) at our power level?
I love Harm's Way. It's a classic white effect that is often a 2 for 1 for only one white mana.
I run it and have been running for a long time. And since removing Path to Exile and Swords, it has become my number one 1CC white non-creature spell.
I run it and have been running for a long time. And since removing Path to Exile and Swords, it has become my number one 1CC white non-creature spell.
It's fantastic in creature-on-creature matchups, especially weenie-on-weenie action (hmmmm, I should rephrase that... nah, it's fine). Otherwise, it's just a Magma Spray. That downside may be enough to justify its upside as a mega combat trick. I liked it while I ran it, but ultimately I wanted removal that could slot into a wider variety of decks than just aggro. It's great at what it does, though.
I highly regret not purchasing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for its prerelease price of $15
I highly regret not purchasing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for its prerelease price of $15
I used to run Harm's Way, it was rarely what my white aggro decks were looking for so I cut it.
I like actual Merfolk Looter more than Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and if human tribal matters I like Thought Courier more as well. I could see 1x Looter/Courier + 1x Jace? Repeated looting and 1 power tend to matter more often than a Planeswalker with an ability that often gets used at suboptimal timing imo.
That said I think Jace is worth trying, I'll probably sub him in for one of the looters at some point.
I like actual Merfolk Looter more than Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and if human tribal matters I like Thought Courier more as well. I could see 1x Looter/Courier + 1x Jace? Repeated looting and 1 power tend to matter more often than a Planeswalker with an ability that often gets used at suboptimal timing imo.
That said I think Jace is worth trying, I'll probably sub him in for one of the looters at some point.
I wasn't thinking Reanimator. More of... Delvenator...
How many looters is too many? I've got Merfolk Looter + Enclave Cryptologist + Looter il-Kor, and I was thinking of swapping one of them out for Jace.
The thing I've found with delve is that you need exactly zero enablers to help cast your Treasure Cruises and Gurmag Anglers. Given that you're unlikely to have more than two delve cards in your cube deck (there are really only ~7 cubeable delve cards in existence), and that Riptide cubes are almost universally of the high velocity variety, people surprise themselves more often than not by casting something like Tasigur on turn three, getting it bounced, and still having enough graveyard resources to recast it again on turn four.
I wouldn't start playing bad graveyard stockers to help out delve; delve is a man who needs no help.
The thing I've found with delve is that you need exactly zero enablers to help cast your Treasure Cruises and Gurmag Anglers. Given that you're unlikely to have more than two delve cards in your cube deck (there are really only ~7 cubeable delve cards in existence), and that Riptide cubes are almost universally of the high velocity variety, people surprise themselves more often than not by casting something like Tasigur on turn three, getting it bounced, and still having enough graveyard resources to recast it again on turn four.
I wouldn't start playing bad graveyard stockers to help out delve; delve is a man who needs no help.
Aoret
Developer
If you're mostly happy running three, but are concerned that three is too many, switching JVP in for one of them is probably good. It lowers your looter count to something closer to 2.5 or 2.25
Please please do try him. Again, I thought I hated this card. The trick is to play him pretty aggressively. This isn't really a planeswalker you play and protect. It's like the control version of bloodbraid elf. You run him out there to get some value and then move on. It's really important to note that you can just not use him if the coast isn't clear for him to be a planeswalker yet.
He's fantastic. I wasn't too sold on how good it would be until I saw it on camera at the SCG Open. It was trivially easy to flip and he was just a value machine all game long. Card filtering, flashing back a useful spell, and being able to slow down a single big threat is great utility. He won't win you any games on his own, but he's an excellent roleplayer.