This is the key part right here. I believe the entirety of everyone's disagreement centers around what this particular slot in cube is for (which is individual specific). If you are looking at this card as a slot for human/anthem/tempo/pants support, it's not even a close comparison. Fiend looks a whole lot worse in this slot. Same with maggot. If you are instead looking at this slot as a general utility dork for black decks, Fiend IMO looks much better because it's disruption is so much more useful. That's the crux of the argument in my mind. Neither side is wrong.
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- Thread starter James Stevenson
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This is the key part right here. I believe the entirety of everyone's disagreement centers around what this particular slot in cube is for (which is individual specific). If you are looking at this card as a slot for human/anthem/tempo/pants support, it's not even a close comparison. Fiend looks a whole lot worse in this slot. Same with maggot. If you are instead looking at this slot as a general utility dork for black decks, Fiend IMO looks much better because it's disruption is so much more useful. That's the crux of the argument in my mind. Neither side is wrong.
Yeah, scryb ranger and cloud of faeries are not in cube because of the bodies. The first has flash, a sweet untap trigger and is really effective against blue decks. The other is a combo engine which also cycles when not super useful. I think those are really bad comparisons honestly. By the same argument, Freebooter needs to be in based on the ability, and that ability isn't worth 2 mana. Both ranger and cloud are abusable. Freebooter is never abusable. It's incremental advantage at best and a very marginal card at worst.
Right, again, the ceiling is definitely great, but I think the floor is generally being underrated. Neither side is wrong, they just value those aspects differently.
Magic is probably the hardest, most complicated popular game currently in existence, it's no surprise that a card like this can be so divisive in opinions on it. It's part of the reason I love it and discussing it, as it's good to know what others value and then to weigh that for what you want to do.
Magic is probably the hardest, most complicated popular game currently in existence, it's no surprise that a card like this can be so divisive in opinions on it. It's part of the reason I love it and discussing it, as it's good to know what others value and then to weigh that for what you want to do.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
What pulls it even further apart, from a low power context, is that one of the most popular low power archetypes you can support is UB ninjas, which is the premier tempo deck you can run, and absurdly fun. That deck really wants 2cc flyers with a relevent ETB effect, to both carry the ninja in, and have a cheap ETB to exploit on recast. It should be 2cc, because the more expensive the ETB recast, its starts costing you tempo. It wants evasive, flying damage from an early point in the game, as well as disruption.
This is just about the most perfect card you could imagine for that deck. It fills every role, and every need that it has.
Context matters.
I forgot about the ninja deck. That's a good call. Another good example of this is Liliana's Specter versus Hypnotic Specter. Hippie is much more powerful in a vacuum. If you want a powerful disruptive card that all black heavy decks can just access, Hippie's the choice between these two in a landslide. But if you have a strong ninja or similar theme, you want liliana much more and your deck will be better as a result. Goes back to the heavy synergy approach of lower power cubing. I totally get the argument. I also really like the design theory.
Sure, if you're running a ninjas theme, it can work there. I, and most cubes, don't, so it's pretty easy to kind of never consider that. It's really difficult to consider every possible archetype, so you kind of have to understand that most cubes aren't running that and I'm not considering specific cubes but cubing as a whole when talking cards.
Sorry guys! I know it's easy to get the blinders on when discussing cards--we all do it--but it's also important to consider what is possible outside of your own formats, as I and everyone should do a better job of that. Otherwise, it kind of devolves into 'well in my cube...' talk, and that goes no where productive in the long run. Like, no shit we hit a brick wall here if we aren't looking at the card from a general stand point vs how it could perform, its the only way you could say a 1/2 flier is a strong body
And I hope that I'm not coming across as attacking anyone--sometimes I think people get defensive when debating cards (myself included, maybe not here but I have) and I hope we are all on the same page of discussing the cards and not the people including them.
Sorry guys! I know it's easy to get the blinders on when discussing cards--we all do it--but it's also important to consider what is possible outside of your own formats, as I and everyone should do a better job of that. Otherwise, it kind of devolves into 'well in my cube...' talk, and that goes no where productive in the long run. Like, no shit we hit a brick wall here if we aren't looking at the card from a general stand point vs how it could perform, its the only way you could say a 1/2 flier is a strong body
And I hope that I'm not coming across as attacking anyone--sometimes I think people get defensive when debating cards (myself included, maybe not here but I have) and I hope we are all on the same page of discussing the cards and not the people including them.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Sure, if you're running a ninjas theme, it can work there. I, and most cubes, don't, so it's pretty easy to kind of never consider that. It's really difficult to consider every possible archetype, so you kind of have to understand that most cubes aren't running that and I'm not considering specific cubes but cubing as a whole when talking cards.
Sorry guys! I know it's easy to get the blinders on when discussing cards--we all do it--but it's also important to consider what is possible outside of your own formats, as I and everyone should do a better job of that. Otherwise, it kind of devolves into 'well in my cube...' talk, and that goes no where productive in the long run. Like, no shit we hit a brick wall here if we aren't looking at the card from a general stand point vs how it could perform, its the only way you could say a 1/2 flier is a strong body
And I hope that I'm not coming across as attacking anyone--sometimes I think people get defensive when debating cards (myself included, maybe not here but I have) and I hope we are all on the same page of discussing the cards and not the people including them.
Yeah thats cool. In your defense, one of the tricky things about posting on this forum is that its harder to apply those standard conceptual frameworks in evaulating cards. Its always best to try to figure out the context from where the poster is coming from, because we tend to experiment with weird things, and its harder to have a generalized framework for evaulating cards. You should have seen it two years ago when I was experimenting with bad removal lol. Its why it always tends to get a little fiery here during spoiler season.
You've done a pretty good job navigating things, even though I know we've hit the rocks a couple times, but you've done pretty good.
The ninja thing is also a big part of why the body on ranger and cloud of faeries is relevent, which is an interaction I picked up from pauper, where the delver decks fed on that cloud->ninja of the deep hours synergy.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
In the end, I think the information most people want to get to is figuring out "is this card good for my cube" and to get there, it seems more productive to me to paint a broad picture coming from a variety of specific perspectives then trying to glean information from people trying to fit their feedback into a narrower context. First, you're more likely to get someone randomly saying something that is directly relevant to you. Second, you get a more holistic perspective so that even if nothing said is particularly relevant to you, you are better informed so capable of making a better decision.
FSR really hits the nail for me. My personal feeling is that the cube community has fragmented a bit. It's feels very cliquey now. Problem with that though is this is already a fringe format. Doesn't feel like a good evolution to me.
The holistic argument is really strong IMO. And there's more overlap than it might seem too. What appears like it doesn't apply to your own cube may not really be the case. You can assemble really tight synergistic decks in a lower powered list and they can be very competitive against even higher powered stuff - power is actually quite contextual. Having waffled between cube power levels a bit, I've brought things from each side and sometimes they still work and you end up pretty surprised. Ninjas for example is quite serviceable an archetype up through mid level power cubes if your ETB support is good enough. It's also quite fun to build and pilot. And who doesn't love ninja's?
My guess is that if everyone was 100% satisfied with their cubes, they would be a lot less inclined to seek out and engage in discussions like these. I think we all are seeking more insight in some fashion or another. Hopefully none of us think we have all the answers. And it's more rewarding if we are trying to to engage (vs argue our side) even when our environments differ a lot. Understanding why they are different and how that impacts strategies and card evaluations is often more useful than discussing card upgrades at face value.
Again, if I see someone arguing vehemently that my card evaluations are totally out of whack, I'd be losing out on a really good opportunity to learn something if I didn't try and understand why that is. Not suggesting people are ignoring these opportunities, but there is a level of dismissiveness that underscores some of the posts and it's part of why things get more heated than they should. Honestly, there's really no reason for anyone to feel put out over Mesmeric Fiend or Kitesail Freebooter. These are role-player cards in the best of times.
The holistic argument is really strong IMO. And there's more overlap than it might seem too. What appears like it doesn't apply to your own cube may not really be the case. You can assemble really tight synergistic decks in a lower powered list and they can be very competitive against even higher powered stuff - power is actually quite contextual. Having waffled between cube power levels a bit, I've brought things from each side and sometimes they still work and you end up pretty surprised. Ninjas for example is quite serviceable an archetype up through mid level power cubes if your ETB support is good enough. It's also quite fun to build and pilot. And who doesn't love ninja's?
My guess is that if everyone was 100% satisfied with their cubes, they would be a lot less inclined to seek out and engage in discussions like these. I think we all are seeking more insight in some fashion or another. Hopefully none of us think we have all the answers. And it's more rewarding if we are trying to to engage (vs argue our side) even when our environments differ a lot. Understanding why they are different and how that impacts strategies and card evaluations is often more useful than discussing card upgrades at face value.
Again, if I see someone arguing vehemently that my card evaluations are totally out of whack, I'd be losing out on a really good opportunity to learn something if I didn't try and understand why that is. Not suggesting people are ignoring these opportunities, but there is a level of dismissiveness that underscores some of the posts and it's part of why things get more heated than they should. Honestly, there's really no reason for anyone to feel put out over Mesmeric Fiend or Kitesail Freebooter. These are role-player cards in the best of times.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
A word of caution too, when evaulating 1/2 card bodies with marginal ETB effects.
YeahThraben plays better than it looks, forsure. You don't throw it into your aggro decks, which is where a lot of the misevaluation comes from, but it's a great card for midrange and cubes of all speeds.
But that's also a bad comparison, as I'm guaranteed some value from the Thraben Inpsector and it costs W, versus Freebooter which costs 2 and could be pretty underwhelming. Context and evaluating the whole card--not just the body--is important. When the body sucks, as both of these unqestionably do, then you're paying for the ability, and I feel way better paying W for a 1/2 and a card later vs a 1/2 flier that has varying degrees of power depending on what it can grab, which we can agree are wildly different cards.
I'm all for holisitc viewpoints on magic, but there are general magic concepts that exist no matter what formats you craft 99.9% of the time, and one is 1/2 bodies almost always suck and you need to be paying for the ability. Yes they can be relevant because it's a flier and etc, but as variance exists the value of what you're getting for 1B is still pretty low, or at least has the realistic potential to be.
Maybe we shouldn't be comparing every 1/2 or 1/1 flier to freebooter, because these comparisons have been generally bad/not too relevant since all the cards bring value to the table in wildly different ways. Like why aren't we comparing Chimney Imp? That card is awful, but that's what you're doing here, just throwing random 1/2s and saying 'see? this one is good, so it's relevant', which it's not in reality.
This would be like dismissing a grizzly bear and then saying 'but wait, siege gang commander is also a 2/2, be careful' that's an extreme example but it's pretty on point with what you're doing here.
But that's also a bad comparison, as I'm guaranteed some value from the Thraben Inpsector and it costs W, versus Freebooter which costs 2 and could be pretty underwhelming. Context and evaluating the whole card--not just the body--is important. When the body sucks, as both of these unqestionably do, then you're paying for the ability, and I feel way better paying W for a 1/2 and a card later vs a 1/2 flier that has varying degrees of power depending on what it can grab, which we can agree are wildly different cards.
I'm all for holisitc viewpoints on magic, but there are general magic concepts that exist no matter what formats you craft 99.9% of the time, and one is 1/2 bodies almost always suck and you need to be paying for the ability. Yes they can be relevant because it's a flier and etc, but as variance exists the value of what you're getting for 1B is still pretty low, or at least has the realistic potential to be.
Maybe we shouldn't be comparing every 1/2 or 1/1 flier to freebooter, because these comparisons have been generally bad/not too relevant since all the cards bring value to the table in wildly different ways. Like why aren't we comparing Chimney Imp? That card is awful, but that's what you're doing here, just throwing random 1/2s and saying 'see? this one is good, so it's relevant', which it's not in reality.
This would be like dismissing a grizzly bear and then saying 'but wait, siege gang commander is also a 2/2, be careful' that's an extreme example but it's pretty on point with what you're doing here.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
It wasn't a comparison. It was an example of how overly rigid heuristics for evaulating cards can be misleading.
I already know that you dislike the card, and don't want to consider that duress on an evasive body could be playable, or even acknowledge the validy of contexts where the ETB and body could be effective. That much became clear when the conversation shifted to low power, and you still dismissed my evaulation of the card's body and effect.
Wait! Sorry for interruption the vivid Freebooter-discussion but I have a quick question. Does this work for anyone?
My 2 cents, yes. But you probably already knew since I think you've been following my combo cube testing.
Gary is very good as a late game finisher in any black deck that will have black permanents in play. If you want to break that and make Nykthos worth it, IMO you need to consider a few other pieces. Namely...
Normal black section stuff works very well here so it's not something you have to redesign around. Bloodghast, Phyrexian Arena, etc. All good with Gary/Nykthos. You don't have to add much for this to suddenly turn into a very powerful engine. Degenerate even. Lake of the Dead is a stupid card. It gives you 5 mana with basically nothing but a swamp. And you can make the casting of these cards easier with Dark Ritual, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and even things like Dark Petition. All of which have uses outside mono black.
Mono colored decks are hard to draft outside 8 mans. It is very doable in an 8 man though and you get the benefit of not having to prioritize nonbasic lands so card quality can be high. Reading draft signals is important if you don't want to get stuck with half a deck though. If you do different drafting (4 mans or whatever) or sealed etc, this is going to be much harder to support and this stuff will just wheel and never make lists. So isn't viable for all cube groups. Power level is very high though.
Thank you for your input.
I guess my question was not very well formulated but you answered it perfectly still.
Lake has always been a swing-or-miss card that most often is on the broken side of the scale. Same goes for Necro. And both Messenger and Obliterator is far beyond fair in the right shell. However.. My doubt was not with those stables but more with 'Gary' and Nykthos which I have never found to be excellent. Or even good enough to warrent a place in a mono black aggro/midrange deck. Is the payoff worth it?
And you clearly say 'Yes' but it surprises me a little bit. It makes me optimistic for Mono Black Devotion again Do you run Nightveil?
I guess my question was not very well formulated but you answered it perfectly still.
Lake has always been a swing-or-miss card that most often is on the broken side of the scale. Same goes for Necro. And both Messenger and Obliterator is far beyond fair in the right shell. However.. My doubt was not with those stables but more with 'Gary' and Nykthos which I have never found to be excellent. Or even good enough to warrent a place in a mono black aggro/midrange deck. Is the payoff worth it?
And you clearly say 'Yes' but it surprises me a little bit. It makes me optimistic for Mono Black Devotion again
Do you run Nightveil?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Gary has been decent even in my multicolor cube when I ran him. Mind you, this is a cube where (then even more so than now) drafting a monocolored deck is almost infeasible. Even there it was fairly trivial to make 8+ point life swings, and then do it again on a later turn because of recursion (be it blink, self-bounce, or reanimation). It really doesn't need much in the way of casting costs from your environment. All it asks is that games are not over or out of control by turn 5. If you enable silly stuff like t3 Worn Powerstone into t4 Grave Titan, poor Gary might not be able to impress as easily
I don't run Nightveil, but I think it is very good here. Maybe better if you are pushing mono blue devotion so it has multiple uses.
My feeling is that Nykthos needs critical mass or it just sucks. Lake is a very good compliment to it since you can ramp out a bunch of stuff with Lake, then drop Nykthos and power mana with what Lake got into play. Very complimentary. It's all fast mana though, and so it's degenerate by design. Some metas are going to break as a result so be careful what lists you plug this into. I think Lake is a cool design because of how risky it is. If you sac 2 swamps and Lake gets wasted, you pretty much lose on the spot. And if it survives, it just works so well with what black does. Particularly busted with pox type effects. You can drop down to just Lake in play, and if you have a swamp it's 5 mana right away. It's basically like setting up a 10+ mana upheaval.
Gary is more value in slower decks without fast mana. It's the card more lists can run. Not going to be game breaking but the life swing can turn games around. I don't think you need the full package for that card but I wouldn't run Nykthos without a ton of support or some fast mana combo BS. Nykthos is not nearly as good.
My feeling is that Nykthos needs critical mass or it just sucks. Lake is a very good compliment to it since you can ramp out a bunch of stuff with Lake, then drop Nykthos and power mana with what Lake got into play. Very complimentary. It's all fast mana though, and so it's degenerate by design. Some metas are going to break as a result so be careful what lists you plug this into. I think Lake is a cool design because of how risky it is. If you sac 2 swamps and Lake gets wasted, you pretty much lose on the spot. And if it survives, it just works so well with what black does. Particularly busted with pox type effects. You can drop down to just Lake in play, and if you have a swamp it's 5 mana right away. It's basically like setting up a 10+ mana upheaval.
Gary is more value in slower decks without fast mana. It's the card more lists can run. Not going to be game breaking but the life swing can turn games around. I don't think you need the full package for that card but I wouldn't run Nykthos without a ton of support or some fast mana combo BS. Nykthos is not nearly as good.
Just back on Kitesail Freebooter, how much hand disruption do you run in your cubes generally? I've just had a look because reading through the discussion I realised I'd never played Mesmeric Fiend/Brain Maggot anyway, and never felt like I wanted them, and I actually only have Duress and Cabal Therapy (and Smallpox as non-targeted discard), and Duress is probably on its way out. Is the hand disruption something you feel black decks need a lot of?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I'm on the "fiend never really counted as a creature" boat, but I'm a bit more excited about this.
That being said I basically hate all black 2s,so the more maybes the merrier
That being said I basically hate all black 2s,so the more maybes the merrier
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I run quite a bit more discard, though not all of it is targeted.
The Grixis options are obviously more game enders than disruptive tools, but I do like this aspect of black's color pie. I like that the hand is not always a safe zone.
My feeling is discard in general is a unique feature of black and something that I generally want to have a decent amount of. The targeted and random versions being the most powerful simply because the value of discard is really about how much disruption it causes.
Higher powered lists I think need it because without disruption, it's just better running other colors. Black really does nothing better. White has cheaper and more universally useful removal. White also has anthems and better more efficient creatures that don't deal damage to you. Red is similar, especially recently with all these new powerful creatures. More importantly, red has burn which is the most powerful thing in the game because it's removal and reach all in one. Green has ramp. Blue has counters. Black has tutors I guess? But that just makes it a splash color.
At least at higher power levels, black without a solid disruption suite, in my mind, is just a splash color which isn't where I want black to be. I was actually going to make a big post about it after the devotion discussion, but I got distracted. Black I think has spent a lot of it's time in cube going through an identity crisis. And part of it I feel is that there's a bit of a disconnect trying to tie specific archetypes to black's identity as a color without relegating it to just a support role.
Higher powered lists I think need it because without disruption, it's just better running other colors. Black really does nothing better. White has cheaper and more universally useful removal. White also has anthems and better more efficient creatures that don't deal damage to you. Red is similar, especially recently with all these new powerful creatures. More importantly, red has burn which is the most powerful thing in the game because it's removal and reach all in one. Green has ramp. Blue has counters. Black has tutors I guess? But that just makes it a splash color.
At least at higher power levels, black without a solid disruption suite, in my mind, is just a splash color which isn't where I want black to be. I was actually going to make a big post about it after the devotion discussion, but I got distracted. Black I think has spent a lot of it's time in cube going through an identity crisis. And part of it I feel is that there's a bit of a disconnect trying to tie specific archetypes to black's identity as a color without relegating it to just a support role.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I agree. I have found myself adding more and more hand disruption to black over time. It really shapes up the color.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, I can't quite get myself to cut Thoughtseize yet (the Lorwyn art is beautiful as well!), though I have added more two mana options after my scuffle with grillo