General CBS

[Onderzeeboot]

Other than the cards already mentioned, I run Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, Scrapheap Scrounger, and Zulaport Cutthroat.

I've really liked the Siphoner so far. Menace on a two drop in a color with access to lots of removal means it actually gets to draw cards fairly regularly. It swings equipment like a champ as well.
Scrapheap Scrounger is a known commodity thanks to Mardu Vehicles. The card gets splashed into nonblack aggro decks as a simple 3/2 for 2, but I don't think that's a bad thing. In black-based decks it's obviously better, where it lets you recoup after a sweeper or attack into early defenders with impunity, knowing that you'll get your beater back eventually.
Zulaport Cutthroat was actually swapped in when running two Blood Artists turned out to be a bit too much. When one player picks up two Artists, things can get ugly very fast. I did want a second pinger for aristocrat decks though, and Cutthroat has been perfect for that. It's a human too, which is nice (and relevant) for the B/W human deck.

Edit: Dangit, Scavenger wasn't mentioned when I started typing this post

 

[shamizy]

My black two drops (at 420 cube size) are currently:



I cheat a little with including the Scrounger by counting it amongst colorless cards, but if I need another colorless slot I'd likely just cut Oona's Prowler at this point. Asylum Visitor was okay for me when I ran it, but it was nothing special. I think I had the pseudo-Bob mode come through for me in one game ever. It's a fine card if you're just looking for another aggressive option, but I think Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is just better as an evasive threat and self-contained engine.

 

[japahn]

My black 2cc slots are very clearly split between control and aggro.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Nezumi Graverobber is a card I've definitely liked. The only reason I cut it was to reduce the number of insular mechanics, as it was the only Kamigawa flip card I was running. That said, another flip card that I could see myself running happens to be a black two drop as well!



Ixalan brings us another one that looks plenty playable.



It's a nice disruption card with evasion and a relevant creature type (e.g. Xathrid Necromancer). I'm trying it out in my cube for sure (instead of Brain Maggot).

 

[inscho]

I've been thinking about freebooter vs mesmeric fiend. Grabbing a creature is a pretty big plus for fiend. It's a common scenario to grab a creature, killing tempo for your opponent, and forcing them to waste premium removal on it to maintain any pressure. I like the flexibility, and also stacking the trigger to permanent exile with a sac outlet. However, evasion is pretty clutch so I'm on the fence as I don't know if I want 2 effects like this.

 

[ahadabans]

I think fiend is better specifically because it can take any non-land card. The sacrifice / permanent exile aspect isn't that big of a deal to me as it rarely comes up. Fiend is mostly a tempo play and a way to see what your opponent has planned to help you sequence your next turns better. You usually don't care all that much if it dies. It plays a bit like Ice in that it takes or delays a turn/play which early in the game is often critical (especially true in higher powered metas).

1 toughness vs 2 toughness - as far as removal goes - feels largely irrelevant. In combat, 1 power is mostly garbage - so they both suck. Sure, it's better in the air. Freebooter blocks lingering souls tokens like a boss and that is a nice perk. But neither of these creatures is going to be all that useful in combat outside special circumstances. I guess equipment.dec likes freebooter a lot more? Still, I'd rather be able to snag the T2/T3 creature or some horrible finisher. And again, even if they remove it immediately, you delay that creature card one turn in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I like freebooter by a pretty wide margin.

Mesmeric fiend plays inconsistent with its role as active disruption for a tempo deck. I really dislike the design, and always found that it drafted awkwardly, confused people, ending up in all sorts of shells it had no business being in. I much prefer tidehollow sculler, whose larger body means its can at least perform consistent with its design.

Freebooter is a much more elegant in that sense. The evasion means that it can play consistently with its role as a source of disruptive pressure. The additional point of toughness is important in making the body more broadly relevent, and keeping the card's board presence relevent.

 

[sigh]

Agree with Grillo on all counts. Same reason I like Miasmic Mummy over Rotting rats, the more relevant body (and simpler design).

Y'all got me on Glint-sleeve siphoner. I'll give them a whirl. I like the thought that it may actually represent more damage thanks to menace.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Honestly going Kitesail Freebooter into some equipment or aura just seems so much more what I want to do with a black/x tempo deck than mesmeric fiend.

 

[Salmo2]

I think fiend is better specifically because it can take any non-land card. The sacrifice / permanent exile aspect isn't that big of a deal to me as it rarely comes up. Fiend is mostly a tempo play and a way to see what your opponent has planned to help you sequence your next turns better. You usually don't care all that much if it dies. It plays a bit like Ice in that it takes or delays a turn/play which early in the game is often critical (especially true in higher powered metas).

1 toughness vs 2 toughness - as far as removal goes - feels largely irrelevant. In combat, 1 power is mostly garbage - so they both suck. Sure, it's better in the air. Freebooter blocks lingering souls tokens like a boss and that is a nice perk. But neither of these creatures is going to be all that useful in combat outside special circumstances. I guess equipment.dec likes freebooter a lot more? Still, I'd rather be able to snag the T2/T3 creature or some horrible finisher. And again, even if they remove it immediately, you delay that creature card one turn in the vast majority of cases.

Yeah, missing on creatures is kind of horrific, and any claims that 'we never grab creatures' are either 1) false or 2) relying on too small of a sample size and will correct itself over time. If anything, I'd say potentially missing makes it way *less* elegant, since there's nothing elegant about a 1/2 flier for 1B that looks at your opponent hand and does nothing lol

The flying and 1 toughness is better, but it's not enough better to justify it. In the largest cubes I could see running it over Brain Maggot if you really wanted a second version of that effect, but I barely want the first one, so, *shrug*. 1/2 fliers are straight up bad, and missing with a 1/2 flier would be awful. This would be a staple as a 2/1 flier, though.

I also put less weight on the specific defense against certain cards too, especially since a number of Mesmeric Fiend decks will be playing Lingering Souls/etc. If there were a million 1/1 fliers in cube it would be one thing, but I think that's a creature type that is lacking to a high enough degree to not sacrifice missing creatures on Fiend.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I playtested with it some and have been happy with the Freebooter. It attacked in scenario's where Brain Maggot would have been useless, and has wielded a Bonesplitter a few times. I think the card is a good addition to the black two drop section.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Mesmeric fiend seems like it might be better abstractly, but in context I can definitely see cubes wanting the Kitesail, while fiend just seems to be filling a quota. Kitesail takes the removal and gives you a flying body to equip, enchant, or activate attack triggers. Fiend is really just a discard spell that you'll either run or not run depending on how many discard spells you want and where you want them tuned.

 

[ahadabans]

As with most spell effects, having it stapled to a body is more relevant than it seems. That goes for both of these cards. I don't think they are filling a quota at all. It's a unique and powerful effect that black decks of all flavors benefit from. Hand disruption is good. Sacrificial bodies are useful. Agro decks want this, Control decks want this. Fiend goes in a ton of decks.

I've played with Mesmeric Fiend a lot. It takes creatures probably as often as it takes non-creatures. And there are times you get a second use out of it. More common in cubes with a lot of blink/bounce support. You take something useful early game to slow them and then you give it back when it's less useful and take something better. Like say, take a mana rock which is great T2 and crap T5. They can have it back later if they want it or you give it back and then take the 6 drop. Can't do that with thoughtseize, et all. It's also a blocker, so can fog damage. Again, control decks get mileage out of this. Take your 2/3 drop so you miss a tempo play. Maybe you kill fiend and get it back or maybe I just chump your 2 power 1 drop and give it back. 3 drops are less good on T4. Either way, you lost a turn and a half(ish) and I have 4 lands in play now and am that much closer to taking control of the game.

It also counts towards devotion for those running Gary and Nykthos.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Conversation took a super weird turn. One conversation is about grokability, the other conversation is about defending mesmeric fiend (which it probably dosen't need?).

Fiend is a solid card, I've just found it to have a steeper cube learning curve than most people are willing to put into a 2 drop. Freebooter might be a worse card objectively, but its designed in a way where even the most obtuse drafters will draft/play it at least reasonably due to the cleaner design, and thats the level of complexity I want for a class of not-particularly exciting--or compelling--black 2 drops.

Cube is already befuddling enough as it is, and this looks like a nice, reasonably clear, sign and line for the existance and structure of black tempo decks, without being too constricting in the process.

 

[Salmo2]

? Nothing weird about this at all. It's a forum discussion on cube in a thread that's not really focused overall, it's gotta turn eventually.

My main issue is the floor of missing and how awful that is. As you say, cube is already befuddling enough as is, and giving players a card that's supposed to function one way (i.e. disruption) and having it function completely different (i.e. black storm crow) is so wildly inconsistent for me that I don't get the appeal of adding flying and one toughness and that being something you'd want.

Typically people have been evaluating Freebooter in those two ways, either as: 1) the floor is irrelevant, a 1/2 flier is much better when you actually pick something, it's not boring, and 2) missing creatures is awful. There is an impasse here when they meet, as how can one person convince the other that what they've seen is wrong because they've seen it otherwise? There was actually a big discussion on freebooter other places, it's probably one of the more divisive cards in recent memory in terms of its place in cube.

It's hard to argue experience, but if you have a 1/2 flier for 1B then you're paying for the effect as that's an awful body, and when the effect misses it's an awful effect on an awful body...it's really hard for me to stomach that floor, others can and power to them but eh it's the easiest of easy passes for cubes of all types IMO.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Ok, I understand, you were injecting arguments from another forum, assuming were would use the same framework to evaulate the card. That makes sense now.

There certaintly are going to be formats where fiend will just be better. Like FSW pointed out, fiend can be thought of as just another discard spell, and if you need it to carry on that basis, the choice is closer to thoughtseize vs. duress (which is kind of an interesting model to think of these cards from).

 

[ahadabans]

To be fair, I can see the body on Freebooter being less bad in a lower powered environment. Especially if equipment/aura/anthems is a big theme. Flying is very relevant there. Higher powered environments, both bodies are just useless so it's much more about the disruption where fiend >>> freebooter. My feeling on it. I think both perspectives are correct depending on the context and what your cube is trying to do with that slot.

 

[Salmo2]

Ok, I understand, you were injecting arguments from another forum, assuming were would use the same framework to evaulate the card. That makes sense now.

What? Where I've had these thoughts are irrelevant, they're just how I feel about the two cards. I could be on the moon talking to rocks and I'm going to frame my position the same way, which is typically in general cube context. I'm assuming everybody is going to evaluate these cards in generally the same way, which is whether they work for cube or not, no matter the power level/etc. Let's not go that route just because I mention that freebooter has been discussed elsewhere and the same arguments are being reflected here.

Also, how relevant is equipment in a lower powered cube? It doesn't seem non-existant, but I can't imagine in a lower powered cube there's enough around to justify the 1/2 flier body. Also with less plainswalkers there's less stuff you need to attack; not that attacking players is irrelevant, but attacking for 1 from your two drop isn't super exciting.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Equipment and other vertical buffs are really important in lower powered cubes, and even the unbuffed body is solid. It really isn't a contest in that context, as both the body and the effect are very strong, and intersect really nicely with a lot of the mechanics you can explore there.

 

[Salmo2]

The body is not strong. It's a 1/2 flier. That's awful. It can be improved, as that's why I asked about equipment and such, but in a vaccum a 1/2 flier is actually awful. You're not going to find many people who agree that the body is strong.

When the effect works, it's great, but when it doesn't work as you want it to you really can't argue for storm crow. In a 360 lower powered cube where you could hypothetically be swinging for 3 in the air on your third turn if you're always getting bonesplitter that's cool, and I could see this not being awful for you there, but I really don't think you're getting that much better of a deal for what y ou're missing out on.

But that's ok to disagree! Cheers

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's hard to argue experience, but if you have a 1/2 flier for 1B then you're paying for the effect as that's an awful body, and when the effect misses it's an awful effect on an awful body...it's really hard for me to stomach that floor, others can and power to them but eh it's the easiest of easy passes for cubes of all types IMO.

Obviously you're wrong there Salmo. If it was the easiest of passes we wouldn't have this discussion, let alone people already including it. I can respect that it's not something you are interested in, but for me this was an easy swap. Besides the evasion, which is relevant in my cube, since I both run some equipment, some anthem effects, and planeswalkers, Kitesail Freebooter is a human! I run two Champion of the Parish, a Thalia's Lieutenant and a Xathrid Necromancer, so Freebooter can add more value than Brain Maggot even if it whiffs (which honestly it doesn't as much as you seem to be afra I'd of). I won't argue that the discard part of Freebooter is better than that of Maggot or Mesmeric Fiend, because it clearly isn't, but it has uses that the other two don't, while still providing a relevant disruption element. That's why I like the Freebooter, it simply plays better with the rest of my cube.

Also, stop looking at it as a Storm Crow, you're practically acting like Freebooter never hits! The good case scenario isn't exactly Magical Christmas Land for crying out loud...

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The body is not strong. It's a 1/2 flier. That's awful.

When the effect works, it's great, but when it doesn't work as you want it to you really can't argue for storm crow.

Yeah, because its not like I ever design or cube low power formats.

I understand that you dislike the card, don't think/want to believe the bodies of either card can really ever be relevent, and think they should be evaulated purely on the basis of thoughtseize v. duress.

 

[Salmo2]

Obviously you're wrong there Salmo. If it was the easiest of passes we wouldn't have this discussion, let alone people already including it. I can respect that it's not something you are interested in, but for me this was an easy swap. Besides the evasion, which is relevant in my cube, since I both run some equipment, some anthem effects, and planeswalkers, Kitesail Freebooter is a human! I run two Champion of the Parish, a Thalia's Lieutenant and a Xathrid Necromancer, so Freebooter can add more value than Brain Maggot even if it whiffs (which honestly it doesn't as much as you seem to be afra I'd of). I won't argue that the discard part of Freebooter is better than that of Maggot or Mesmeric Fiend, because it clearly isn't, but it has uses that the other two don't, while still providing a relevant disruption element. That's why I like the Freebooter, it simply plays better with the rest of my cube.

Also, stop looking at it as a Storm Crow, you're practically acting like Freebooter never hits!

I didn't say it was the easiest of passes for everyone, did I? I literally say 'IMO' which means 'In *MY* Opinion.' I'm not speaking for anyone else, at least not any more after all that work in therapy but seriously, we don't have to go into who I'm speaking for, it's pretty obvious we all speak for ourselves here.

On freebooter, we're at an impasse if we're accepting a 1/2 flier as a good body. I'm not saying it's never going to work, the same way a card like fog is going to have good moments a card like storm crow will have them too. (There's actually a great Limited Resources episode that discusses this based on Results Oriented Thinking and the discipline involved with understanding that bad cards can perform well, search ROTTY Limited Resources to find it!) And yeah it will hit, I'm not arguing that the ceiling is bad--the ceiling is obviously great--I'm arguing that the floor is *horrendous* and I cant stomach that. I don't like including cards that set my players up for disappointment to not fault of their own in the way this card does, even if other times the ceiling will be super high. Are we disagreeing that when this is a 1/2 flier it's bad? I'm OK disagreeing on how often it will be that--again, experience is experience--but it's really hard to argue storm crow has a place in cube. I feel like there are a lot of cards that you could include that are less swingy in a low powered environment, though I get some people are a-OK with stomaching swingy.

I hear what you guys are saying, I just fundamentally disagree that a 1/2 flier is worth a much worse discard effect. It's not about all the work you guys have put into your formats or me attacking you or whatever is going on here, it's about looking at the floor and deciding I don't want cards that could live there, and then debating the merits of the floor vs the ceiling which is fun and why we're on forums discussing cardboard and their viability in a box with other cardboard.

But again, it's ok to disagree, right? cheers

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Are we disagreeing that when this is a 1/2 flier it's bad? I'm OK disagreeing on how often it will be that--again, experience is experience--but it's really hard to argue storm crow has a place in cube.

There are format contexts where a 1/2 flyer is a good body. In fact, a 1/1 evasive body, with decent abilities, can be really powerful in low powered formats.

Here is a card I've been running for years, and has consistently been great.



Many an opponent has died to a moldervine cloaked or equipment carrying scryb ranger, which in lower powered formats can actually be a thing due to the removal suites being less punishing on these strategies, and there being more general time to deploy them.

On top of that, the lack of high quality 4-6CC ETB creatures, and planeswalkers, means that the games tend to develop slower, as lower power cube formats tend to be much worse at setting fast tempo, and exerting crushing pressure on an opponent. They tend to lean much more towards being attrition games and matchups, where early chip damage can add up. This means that an evasive 1/2 body, dropped on say turn 2, can independently do 4-5 points of chip damage, before equipment hits it, and starts providing real pressure to close out the game, and that chip damage matters.

Here is another--broken--example



Obviously, I wouldn't run pure storm crow, there has to be some additional effect that makes it fit in nicely with an existing archetype, but there are a number of low power archetypes that do actively want and use cheap evasive bodies.

The floor on freebooter is also fine. In this context, like I said, the body is servicable, but furthermore, even if it "misses" its not some kind of catastrophe, because the information you get from the casting is oftentimes more valuable than whatever card you took.

 

[Salmo2]

Those cards are a bit different. Context matters, and I'm saying that if freebooter is missing or picking a less-than-ideal card, it's just a storm crow or storm crow + at that point. Both of those cards give you additional benefits (one being free and having a different option of cantripping once the 1/1 flier is useless such as in the late game, one having a billion abilities) and it doesn't really make sense to compare them to freebooter. Like, there's no world I consider Scryb Ranger in if it doesn't do all it does, and when Freebooter misses or hits something you don't need to hit as bad, it's a much worse card than Scryb Ranger and probably Cloud of Fairies.

And the floor is not fine, but we can agree to disagree there because we are going around in circles regarding that. You're not going to convince me otherwise, I'm not going to convince you otherwise, it's no problem but your examples aren't serving as 'ah ha!' moments for me and mine arent for you and that's fine! Again, agree to disagree