What in particular was cool about M13? I've been a sucker for summer core set drafts but I don't remember much from the one or two M13 drafts I did as I'd just started playing then.
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- Thread starter James Stevenson
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Chris Taylor
Contributor
What do you love about rtr? My memory of that format is so caught up in gatecrash, IE "game theory in practice"
I vaguely remember a 5c deck with the defender guy for 2G, but 5 color limited is usually more interesting by its presence than it is actually fun to draft.
I vaguely remember a 5c deck with the defender guy for 2G, but 5 color limited is usually more interesting by its presence than it is actually fun to draft.
My memory of RTR is always having a super shitty UW fliers deck that just couldn't get it done.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
This is all secondhand, but what I've heard about M13 was that it was INCREDIBLY well tuned, and that exalted leads to some interesting plays/decks.
IIRC Zach Hill lead the design (?), the guy behind innistrad, and the same level of care in "everything is playable, no really even curse of oblivion" shows here as well
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Zac Hill lead the development for M13 and Dragon's Maze, he's never led a design team (source). Doug Beyer was actually the design lead for M13, and it's the only set he ever was the design lead for. The lead designer for Innistrad was Mark Rosewater, who has led more design teams than I can count on my fingers and toes combined. Brian Schneider did some interesting development leads; Fifth Dawn, Champions of Kamigawa, original Ravnica, Time Spiral, and Tenth Edition.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Ah, wrong D 
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Very much yes. I thought it was an interesting world lorewise, and there's a ton of potential to improve the designs. Soulshift, ninjutsu, and sweep had interesting play patterns to them.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well you're 2/3 right
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Ooh, which one didn't you like?
to elaborate
i didnt play during kamigawa being new, though somehow once i did end up drafting it when i was extremely new at magic, so im not sure if it was just trip CHK or all 3 sets or what. (this is a bit strange considering i started in late 08)
so like
theres some parts of kamigawa that are cool, namely the art on the stuff like hana kami.
when i see the art like that i start thinking about all sorts of really cool shit that could be going on in that world.
however
idk a bunch of the mechanics just really dont work on several levels
caring about the # of cards in your hand? what is that
the fuck is SWEEP
explain to me what this is flavorfully
splice onto arcane sort of seems cool but like what is this arcane crap i have to keep track of
why are some spells more arcane than other spells
they dont feel any more arcane than other spells
can clerics not cast them, is this like d&d?
and what does "spirit or arcane" have to do with each other
this is especially disappointing bc i rly wish noncreatures in general had subtypes more often and i suspect the whole arcane thing soured wotc on the concept
legendary matters doesnt play super great now on its own when it it isnt tied together with anything else (notice how dominaria put in tons of effort to it being a tangential part of the overall Historic thing). reminder that the legend rule was different back then and played worse
ninjutsu is actually kind of sweet, it's like one of the few homeruns
channel seems like it could be good mechanic but all the cards with it were completely forgettable
epic spells?? fuckin ew. fundamentally a bad idea
why is bushido that mechanically. what does that have to do with bushido. at all. and it's not particularly interesting either
vertical flips play badly but i suppose nowadays they'd be transform cards. not a huge fan of that either but i can live with it.
soulshift.... needed some tweaking. tbh much like a lot of this block, it sort of hints at something really cool but isnt quite there
the world itself, like i said, displayed in the art, seems like it could be cool, but the cards themselves did not do a good job of representing that world in any kind of meaningful way.
the divinity counters thing is just ??????
some of the more interesting mechanics in the sets aren't named, like the return a land to your hand activated abilities. which is similar to sweep i suppose, except sweep plays way worse bc it's on a 1-time effect you probably paid a ton of mana for already and was limited to your mono-colored basics.
the shrines are like, again, this is almost something cool, but it sort of is just weird. why are shrines enchantments?
i think there are parts of kamigawa that have some interesting merit but overall it plays like crap, feels like a weird mishmash of unconnected ideas.
it feels like the designers were having a lot of arguments about what they wanted to do, and nobody won
i didnt play during kamigawa being new, though somehow once i did end up drafting it when i was extremely new at magic, so im not sure if it was just trip CHK or all 3 sets or what. (this is a bit strange considering i started in late 08)
so like
theres some parts of kamigawa that are cool, namely the art on the stuff like hana kami.
when i see the art like that i start thinking about all sorts of really cool shit that could be going on in that world.
however
idk a bunch of the mechanics just really dont work on several levels
caring about the # of cards in your hand? what is that
the fuck is SWEEP
explain to me what this is flavorfully
splice onto arcane sort of seems cool but like what is this arcane crap i have to keep track of
why are some spells more arcane than other spells
they dont feel any more arcane than other spells
can clerics not cast them, is this like d&d?
and what does "spirit or arcane" have to do with each other
this is especially disappointing bc i rly wish noncreatures in general had subtypes more often and i suspect the whole arcane thing soured wotc on the concept
legendary matters doesnt play super great now on its own when it it isnt tied together with anything else (notice how dominaria put in tons of effort to it being a tangential part of the overall Historic thing). reminder that the legend rule was different back then and played worse
ninjutsu is actually kind of sweet, it's like one of the few homeruns
channel seems like it could be good mechanic but all the cards with it were completely forgettable
epic spells?? fuckin ew. fundamentally a bad idea
why is bushido that mechanically. what does that have to do with bushido. at all. and it's not particularly interesting either
vertical flips play badly but i suppose nowadays they'd be transform cards. not a huge fan of that either but i can live with it.
soulshift.... needed some tweaking. tbh much like a lot of this block, it sort of hints at something really cool but isnt quite there
the world itself, like i said, displayed in the art, seems like it could be cool, but the cards themselves did not do a good job of representing that world in any kind of meaningful way.
the divinity counters thing is just ??????
some of the more interesting mechanics in the sets aren't named, like the return a land to your hand activated abilities. which is similar to sweep i suppose, except sweep plays way worse bc it's on a 1-time effect you probably paid a ton of mana for already and was limited to your mono-colored basics.
the shrines are like, again, this is almost something cool, but it sort of is just weird. why are shrines enchantments?
i think there are parts of kamigawa that have some interesting merit but overall it plays like crap, feels like a weird mishmash of unconnected ideas.
it feels like the designers were having a lot of arguments about what they wanted to do, and nobody won
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Well, yo pretty much summed up why I want to return. I really like the world building they did, and there's simply so much to improve on. With today's design sensibilities, they can do much better the second time around! The block also had a lot of weird and cool build around me cards, plus a lot of "hidden" gems (people were sleeping on this "sucky" set big time!).
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Here's every card in magic with sweep:
So much play to them! You can.... kill a creature! Instant Overrun! Stop Either player from casting spells! (them with no cards in hand, you with no lands in play)
Cast...a....pump spell?
I think the best thing I can say about this mechanic is that Charge Across the Araba doesn't have the big downside the rest of them do. Where normally you can't cast anything because half to all of your lands are in your hand, the game's just over instead.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm not saying the cards are good, I'm saying I find the play pattern interesting. You have to ask yourself how many lands you can afford to put back into your hand to buff your spell. Kind of a risk/reward thing, and I like the mechanic for that. Barrel Down and Charge provide enough of an upside to be good respectively very good in limited even.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
If I had to pick a method of scaling my spells, Returning my (mostly only) basics is not the way I'd do it. Bouncing your own lands is fine if done in small doses, (Deprive, Boros Garrison, Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar), but when you're encouraged to return so many like here, it just ends up being the last spell you cast.
If these were all like, Kicker: Return a land I'd be much happier. At least then I could return temples.
If these were all like, Kicker: Return a land I'd be much happier. At least then I could return temples.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Fair enough. I was happy enough with Barrel and Charge when I played with them in limited.
I loved Kamigawa flavorwise, but it had it's flaws obviously as far as game play goes.
First big plus for me is, that I absolutely loved most of the classes and racs on that plane. The Ninjas were so incredibly cool and brought the best mechanic of the set, I don't understand, why we didn't get more of them. Samurai are also a really interesting variation on the typical Soldier/Knight stuff we get in white. The Moonfolk are also incredibly flavorful. The humanoid animal races were also top level. Nezumi are probably still my black humanoid race. The Kitsune, like the Samurai, made white more interesting than average with their spirutal, creepy look that still fit into the color somehow. The Orochi were fine. And even the more classical races got a very unique style here. The Demon/Ogre theme could've been something awesome with a little more and better support. And the Akki are still my favorite non-typical Goblins.
Then the art. Just look at the artworks, they really trigger your imagination, like a magic card should do, not like some of the bland modern digital art, that always looks the same.
Just looking at these cards makes me interested in the world, I wanna close my eyes and go there, discover all these strange, beautiful places.
Sure, the powerlevel on many cards was so bad, it was almost funny. All these weird 2/1 for 5 or 3/2 for 3 with horrible drawbacks. And some mechanics should've worked differently (splice onto Sorceries?) or weren't a good idea in the first place (Sweep?), but this is something we could do better in a return. My only fear is, that they would ruin a lot of the good things like the very unique flavor and the incredible art with a return, that's much more streamlined.
First big plus for me is, that I absolutely loved most of the classes and racs on that plane. The Ninjas were so incredibly cool and brought the best mechanic of the set, I don't understand, why we didn't get more of them. Samurai are also a really interesting variation on the typical Soldier/Knight stuff we get in white. The Moonfolk are also incredibly flavorful. The humanoid animal races were also top level. Nezumi are probably still my black humanoid race. The Kitsune, like the Samurai, made white more interesting than average with their spirutal, creepy look that still fit into the color somehow. The Orochi were fine. And even the more classical races got a very unique style here. The Demon/Ogre theme could've been something awesome with a little more and better support. And the Akki are still my favorite non-typical Goblins.
Then the art. Just look at the artworks, they really trigger your imagination, like a magic card should do, not like some of the bland modern digital art, that always looks the same.
Just looking at these cards makes me interested in the world, I wanna close my eyes and go there, discover all these strange, beautiful places.
Sure, the powerlevel on many cards was so bad, it was almost funny. All these weird 2/1 for 5 or 3/2 for 3 with horrible drawbacks. And some mechanics should've worked differently (splice onto Sorceries?) or weren't a good idea in the first place (Sweep?), but this is something we could do better in a return. My only fear is, that they would ruin a lot of the good things like the very unique flavor and the incredible art with a return, that's much more streamlined.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think the flavor and art direction is something they got a lot better at, just look at the awesome art in Ixalan block, for example.
I'm a big fan of Kamigawa block art and lore-wise, but they definitely messed up power-level wise and with clunky mechanics throughout. I understand why they won't go back from a financial perspective because it was unpopular the first time around, but I feel like every time I read about it people are missing the reason why it failed, citing an alien setting that didn't resonate with fans with extensive Japanese lore. It was sandwiched between two high power sets and was backed by a gimmick done wrong (Legendary matters, which they figured out in DOM) and a bunch of game mechanics that were either bad like Sweep and Epic or parasitic like Arcane. I think it failed purely from a gameplay perspective and that fans would be much more appreciative of such a setting nowadays. Sadly, I don't think they'll ever give it another shot. Or if they do, they won't be able to recapture the mystery and wonder that made it so compelling to me years later where I'd want to look up the historical Japanese lore behind particular depictions of spirits and demons and whatnot.
I'm content with a few glimpses of the plane now and again with a few cards in supplemental sets. I just really wish they would someday release either an art book like they've done for a handful of planes now (I've bought them all thus far) or a book containing the Kamigawa Vignettes. I've really disliked their focus upon the Gatewatch in the last few years because I frankly don't give a damn about a single one of these characters. Show me the world, full of interesting people and different environments, not these boring color caricatures with snappy dialogues that make your eyes roll. The self-contained fables in Kamigawa were great reads, some of my favorite in all of Magic's history, and you should definitely check them out if you're even the slightest bit interested in the lore.
I'm content with a few glimpses of the plane now and again with a few cards in supplemental sets. I just really wish they would someday release either an art book like they've done for a handful of planes now (I've bought them all thus far) or a book containing the Kamigawa Vignettes. I've really disliked their focus upon the Gatewatch in the last few years because I frankly don't give a damn about a single one of these characters. Show me the world, full of interesting people and different environments, not these boring color caricatures with snappy dialogues that make your eyes roll. The self-contained fables in Kamigawa were great reads, some of my favorite in all of Magic's history, and you should definitely check them out if you're even the slightest bit interested in the lore.
I've always felt the same. But apparently magic is booming these days. Are we just a grumpy minority?
Maybe, but I also don't know a single person who is really into the narrative direction of the story. I guess it might be appealing to younger players to have clear protagonists to follow ala MCU superheroes? It's rare that we get interesting stories about characters mostly because they haven't devoted a whole lot of time to fleshing them out or making them compelling, which is a stark contrast from other media that gives you central heroes to follow. Gideon is white leadership bro, Jace has been made more relatable and likeable in recent arcs but there's still little investment b/c his character has a ton of prior baggage, Liliana has nothing redeeming about her character-wise (black to a tee), Chandra just sucks, and Nissa is a weirdo who was WAY more compelling as a xenophobe prior to retcon a few years back.
The recent story centered around Teferi was pretty solid, but that only further highlights weaknesses of their current cast; I found his single standalone flashback story much more interesting than the last 3 years of Gatewatch spotlight. He's got depth to his character and they've shown that growth in him over the years from brash student back in the day to grizzled old man. It's a bad look when, in my opinion, the best story they've had in the last two years wasn't even focused upon the Gatewatch but Ajani, Tamiyo and a little rat.
TLDR; Less Gatewatch b/c they suck, give me better characters.
I mean every set has beautiful and ugly pieces, but in general I prefered the old School art style, which was more free and sometimes looked less realistic but with more fantasy feeling to it imo. Ixalan was far better than BFZ or Origins, but still. My favorite MtG art period reaches from Urza Block to Coldsnap. But this is obviously a completely subjective topic.