General CBS

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
If you start with a land stack of 10 basics, and your hero dictates 8 of those have to be a single color, you can splash a bit, and you can make certain splashy cards class exclusive.


I think this looks interesting. How would said cube be drafted?

If you're doing a traditional 8-person booster draft style, then probably you need to set the number of lands required to a number lower than 8, as forcing people to play almost-monocolor decks will mess up your draft dynamics in an unfavorable way. Taken to the extreme where each person can only play 1 colors, then your deck quality is mostly a function of how many players are in your color, and your number of decisions while drafting shrinks drastically, as you only have a couple (sometimes 0-1) cards to choose from each round.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think this looks interesting. How would said cube be drafted?

If you're doing a traditional 8-person booster draft style, then probably you need to set the number of lands required to a number lower than 8, as forcing people to play almost-monocolor decks will mess up your draft dynamics in an unfavorable way. Taken to the extreme where each person can only play 1 colors, then your deck quality is mostly a function of how many players are in your color, and your number of decisions while drafting shrinks drastically, as you only have a couple (sometimes 0-1) cards to choose from each round.

I think you can do a traditional 8-person booster draft style. You can choose the order you play your lands in, so it doesn't really matter that you're playing only 2 Plains if you're drafting primary Warlock/ secondary Paladin, you can still play alsmost all of your Paladin cards when you want, since you can lead with those Plains if need be. It's just hard to impossible to sequence multiple Paladin spells during the same turn, and you can't cast the highest rarity Paladin cards because they require 3 pips. I think that's still ideal though, since I actually like how those big class spells/minions make you lean into a certain class.

I definitely do need to look at the numbers though. Hearthstone needs a 30 card deck, so with a regular 45 cards drafted, I need to make sure there's actually enough choice to build a deck after the draft. Might need to increase that number (the 45 that is) based on how many "off-color" cards you're expected to pick up, for example.
 
How would said cube be drafted?


I suggest drafting works like this:

You sit down in front of the player drafting the cards for his deck. You lay down 3 cards in front of him face up that are randomly selected from his class pile and the neutral pile. He chooses one of the cards. You bring out your lighter and you burn the two other cards. Repeat this process 29 times.
 
I suggest drafting works like this:

You sit down in front of the player drafting the cards for his deck. You lay down 3 cards in front of him face up that are randomly selected from his class pile and the neutral pile. He chooses one of the cards. You bring out your lighter and you burn the two other cards. Repeat this process 29 times.


I might suggest that one player gets several mythic rares and the other player gets to see a couple of uncommons, at best.
 
Does anyone have a cube they'd consider pretty slow? Looking to experiment with my design a bit and would like to see one from someone here, if I could. Kind of missing those Rav days where a 2/2 for W was insane and Dark Confidant was the absolute sickest engine, no ETBs, no walkers, etc. I'm imagining you would play your creature, hope it lives, beat face or get advantage somehow. Not just haste or ETB auto-value. But everything these days feels so tilted towards that and it feels like my design is corrupted by it. I see a slow card and think it sucks a lot of the time and I don't know how to shift that.
 
Does anyone have a cube they'd consider pretty slow? Looking to experiment with my design a bit and would like to see one from someone here, if I could. Kind of missing those Rav days where a 2/2 for W was insane and Dark Confidant was the absolute sickest engine, no ETBs, no walkers, etc. I'm imagining you would play your creature, hope it lives, beat face or get advantage somehow. Not just haste or ETB auto-value. But everything these days feels so tilted towards that and it feels like my design is corrupted by it. I see a slow card and think it sucks a lot of the time and I don't know how to shift that.

I would recommend looking at 2 things:
-The Sets for which you are Nostalgic.
-Cubes from the Mid to Late 2000's.

Basically, figure out what cards you liked from the RAV era, and figure out what made you love them and why. Then, start building a cube with them.

Here are some cubes from cards pre- 2010. A couple of them have the earlier cards that lead to the "ETB auto-value" stuff we see today, but that really didn't get bad until the Innistrad Era in my opinion.

2007 Magic Invitational Cube (720 Cards)
https://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/40723

Evan Erwin's Cube Circa 2006
https://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/52326;jsessionid=A019C1ED9314EC8766EF22E3883F340C

"2007" Budget Cube
https://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/73999;jsessionid=396962085A8B9E2DD720E44C5AA1F05C
 
Perfect, thank you. I'll obviously keep an eye on FTK, etc, but this will be a great starting point!

Train... you had those ready cus this is your next project, isn't it?

EDIT: The one drops are really interesting and kind of bad. I personally feel like the one drops kind of dictate a lot of the speed of your environment, so that's a key starting point in my mind.

EDIT EDIT: So I'm interested in replicating this kind of environment with modern cards. I think it may be smart to go with a framework of, like, "whats my best X drop?" If it's Call of the Herd, which, I dunno, maybe it is... It's surely strong for this, then I can run a mental check against Call. I think it's tempting to run the 'better' card all the time and that eventually knocks out Call. Just kind of rambling, but maybe someone needs it or will correct me lol.
 
Perfect, thank you. I'll obviously keep an eye on FTK, etc, but this will be a great starting point!

Train... you had those ready cus this is your next project, isn't it?

EDIT: The one drops are really interesting and kind of bad. I personally feel like the one drops kind of dictate a lot of the speed of your environment, so that's a key starting point in my mind.

EDIT EDIT: So I'm interested in replicating this kind of environment with modern cards. I think it may be smart to go with a framework of, like, "whats my best X drop?" If it's Call of the Herd, which, I dunno, maybe it is... It's surely strong for this, then I can run a mental check against Call. I think it's tempting to run the 'better' card all the time and that eventually knocks out Call. Just kind of rambling, but maybe someone needs it or will correct me lol.

Well, I have toyed with the idea of building a cube using mostly older cards before. The issue is that I've only been playing magic for the last 7 or so years so I don't really have many cards printed before 2012. I'm not as familiar with the card pool outside of the modern-legal sets, so whatever I build would probably just look like a cheap imitation of the above cubes and people's Invasion Block limited decks. I've never drafted older cubes or older formats, so I don't know what they should play like or how to balance them. In addition, any retro cube I build wouldn't have the same "living" quality like my current cube where I can easily make swaps and updates using mostly or exclusively cards I already have. It's hard to get excited about a new creature for cube when your best creature is locked in as Ancient Hydra.


Having said all of that, there are a lot of more recent cards I would have liked to tried out in an old-school environment. Drake Haven goes from being strictly a build-around to an unbeatable bomb when the average creature is a Benalish Knight. Lightning Strike and Searing Spear still slot right into a format like this- you're just casting them alongside Hammer of Bogardan instead of Goblin Guide.

I don't think a 2007 cube is really right for me or my friends at this point in time, although it sounds like that idea would be right up your alley. I can share some of the ideas I've had for this if you'd like, although I'm skeptical our design goals for something like this would actually align.
 
Yeah. I'd be open to your ideas if they're gonna be quick for you to put together. I'm definitely going for the "living" cube feeling, but it's really hard to capture that same power level (a bit higher, cus this is fucking terrible on a lot of slots as I get more into it). Currently going to each creature and noncreature mana cost in each color and writing the best card in that 720 cube. That will serve as a potential skeleton for me going forward. I weirdly miss my nonblack color pairs :'(

I was going to comment how the red section's spells are the exact same as today except we have instants that banish instead.
 
When I first started cubing, I aimed for an Extended-like environment, but I found a lot of issues that aren't evident at first glance:

- The card pool is small: We already struggle to find playable black 2-drops, that problem worsens significantly with
- Enemy colour pairs weren't supported: This one has a larger effect than it seems.
- There are fewer crossover support cards: For example, there are fewer token makers.
- Creatures were bad: Creatures used to be bad for most of the game's history. And they were not bad in comparison to each other, but in comparison to the inherent mechanics of the game. The creates you remember are a very small subset of the creatures that existed back then and you are going to struggle in cube to replicate the experience. I mean, Zoo was good. But Zoo played 4 Kird Apes, 4 Wild Nacatl, 4 Watchwolf and had 20 non-basics. You are not going to see a similar deck in your cube.
- The powerful spells are the same: Other than planeswalkers, all the powerful engines are old. Recurring Nightmare, Oppossition, Wildfire, Survival of the Fittest, Armaggeddon...these are all old cards. There are fewer modern build-arounds of this sort so you end up with the same powerful pieces with much weaker creatures around them. And all burn and removal is exactly the same, with some minor differences.

Keep in mind that decks just had more spells back then. I've looked at Zoo lists and they packed 15-18 spells. Red Deck Wins played a similar number while now it plays less than 10.

In the end I decided to include modern cards with a wrinkle of history here and there. Here's what I've learned:

- Speed is not directly correlated with power level: Legacy has a much higher power level than Modern, but Modern is faster. Why? Because there's more disruption available. Vintage used to be much faster than it is now. I played Death Wish Storm and you just raced people. Then it started to get slower, as racing become less reliable. Combo moved into a control shell, control started using engines like Counterbalance and Gifts Ungiven and the format was slower and more fun.
- Free Engines vs Recurring cost: For me the biggest difference in how the game plays is how much effort you have to put into keeping the ball rolling. Compare these two cards:



Life from the Loam requires effort. It requires effort in deckbuilding, effort in play and it's never free. As much as it can be a recurring draw spell, it's a draw spell you have to pay for. This need to pay costs over and over to gain an advantage provides choices in play: Do I push for the advantage now? Can I make the opponent stumble? Am I safe? This is interesting.

Teferi requires effort once, and he's gravy from then on. You play it, draw a card and it even protects himself. If he dies, you are already ahead because he replaced himself and it only costed you three mana. That is, his worse-case scenario is that he cycles for three. And from then on, it's a free card and two more mana every single turn. Or 5-mana Unexpectedly Absent. I don't think it's a card that requires you to make many strategic choices and, on the opponent's side, the choice is to deal with it or die.

Here's another example: I like Blink in my cube because it requires constant effort to keep the table under control. None of its cards are powerful enough to win on their own and they are all one-shot effects. Hence, you need to keep working and spending cards and tempo to keep the deck rolling. And, if you do, you have powerful stuff. You have Gilded Drake, you draw cards with Thraben Inspector and so on.




It's important to keep in mind that "cost" can come in many ways. Soulblade Paladin is very good on its own, but it shines only when you have equipment ready for it. Waterfront Bouncer is always good tempo, but it's less questionable if you have ways of using the discard.

- The draw problem: Magic has some rather weak design elements, one of which is the draw system. One card per turn is not a lot and 40% of the time, it's not even a real card, but mana. Left to its own devices, the game stalls because players spend cards much faster than the game can provide them. Worse of all, every action in the game requires you to have cards. Without cards, you can't do anything.

I think having stuff to do is the reason why I'm enjoying Theros Beyond Death so much, while I find the recent Ravnica sets to be so dull. I always have things to do in Theros. I choose between which cards to play because I have several options. There's a lot of card advantage baked into the format, yet it's also slow enough for you to use it. In Ravnica I find I go down into topdeck mode a lot, which is boring.

We can easily try to adress this through the usual suspects: Flashback, recursion, modal spells, looter effects, etc.

Anyways, this is just theorycrafting. I'm not the best at actually putting this into practice. My cube is just ok. But I hope it helps.
 
Helped a lot and outlined quite a bit of what I was thinking. Looking at these older cards (mostly the creatures, because plenty of the spells are crazy), you can see that most of them need to sit on the table for a turn before they do anything. There's some tension there. I don't immediately get an effect, I need to wait and make use of my creature.

Hell, speaking of extended (which was my next place to seek data), does anyone remember Doran Rock? The deck was named after a 5/5 for 3. Like that's so insane or something. Not like its bad, but now we have Teferi and Liliana on 3. Probably more egregious offenders that I'm forgetting because I don't play constructed. Play a 5/5, disrupt them, hit them. Nice! Loam is also a great example with extended in mind.

I guess I'm not looking for an old school environment as much as I'm looking to try and cap my power level at a time I really enjoyed the game. Lately I feel like I'm rolling my eyes at how obscenely pushed a handful of cards are every set. There's sometimes uncommons that I wouldn't dare add to my cube because they generate so much immediate value. But I also have a hard time not just adding the 'better' card, so I think I need a point of reference to save myself from power creep. Maybe 2007's best cards should be that point of reference. I feel like it's very difficult to avoid going for the hot new cards because they're fresh and interesting, but I think that I'd like to try.

It's definitely going to require some different thinking.

Hmm.. I'm going through multicolor cards to see which ones are going to fit this and get a grasp for my themes. Most of the RNA split cards seem about right, yeah?
 
Maybe you could look at multiplayer or EDH cubes. They generally don't have many walkers and play more long term engines. The environments are usually slow. Not all cards or starts will be useful, but maybe it can give some ideas!
 
I do remember Doran Rock. Which is crazy, because you had so many "Rock" variants at that time. You had Loam Rock, Gifts Rock, Aggro Rock, Doran Rock, White Rock...The variety back then was just absurd. I did not realize at the time, but I think I played the game when it was close to its best. A little bit before I started you had Ravager Affinity. A little more back you had Tinker.

That said, I think the game has improved on every level except one. There's less mana screw and less extremely strong hate that wins you matches, there's better balance between different kinds of cards, there are less decks that ignore what your opponent is doing. The problem to me are planeswalkers. They are such self-supporting, self-defending engines that they overpower everything else. Midrage would never play Gifts or Loam today, because you can play a planeswalker instead. It's easier, probably more powerful and puts fewer constrains on your deckbuilding.

Planeswalkers have had a cascading effect in the game, I think. Creatures must now be stronger to be able to deal 5 damage to them (which is a quarter of the total) or compete in value with a card that draws you a card every turn. That's pretty difficult. They have also benefited from all other changes made to the game. There's less combo, less mana disruption and better creatures to defend them with. There are also less open-ended archetype cards getting printed, because they do not tend to be very safe to print. The change of how you attack them has also been massive, I don't think Planeswalkers would be as overpowering if they you could still redirect damage. Wizards has also been too kind to them, sparing them from the interaction all other card types get.

So for me it's less about ETBs and more about how you can get a recurring advantage. I haven't felt a need to cut ETBs and other value plays beyond not running Thragtusk and a couple pushed baneslayers. So yeah, not big into planeswalkers, which is why I run just two. I would run more if they were more interesting and slighty less powerful. I run Tezzeret, because he's a niche payoff and I run Saheeli, Sublime Artificer because she's pretty much an enchantment.
 
I basically hated walkers since learning about what I was actually doing until the uncommon walkers came out. There's plenty that are OK now. Too many of them, however, are printed to sell packs and that's why Teferi is such a bastard.

I think it's both ETBs and walkers. They both guarantee you a lot of value and aren't usually proportionate with their investment.

I was just working out (on a playground with Lysol wipes lol) and did quite a lot of thinking about what a powerhouse Loam used to be... The damn card can do so much lol. GB and GR are likely to love it. But it really wants 2-5 mana once every 1-3 turns. Which should be ok.

Putrefy and Mortify used to be all stars and they feel slow and clunky to me now, too. Hmm.

I think you're kind of right about it being the best time. They just got past things being really weak and it was a sweet spot before walkers and other power creep.
 
The big issue with Walkers and ETBs are the power creep and how things have shifted over the past decade. Walker designs used to be more limited and specific, but nowadays the trend for the pushed walker of a given set is to dial it up on most axes and make it generically powerful. That's how you ended up with garbage like Oko the last couple of years. The more limited/narrow a walker is, the better it'll supplement an existing archetype in a cube environment. More cards like Daretti, Scrap Savant and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, less generically powerful all in ones like Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. As far as ETBs go, it used to be that powerful spell-worthy ETB effects were tied to lackluster bodies for balance. If you're getting a card worth of value + a body, you'd better be getting something more like 1.5 cards with a shitty body than a good effect + body. You see it most egregiously with pushed cards every since around M10, but even in Limited environments this trend has been steadily evident at lower rarities.

I distinctly remember FRF draft and seeing Sandsteppe Outcast at common and thinking wait, usually it's two 1/1s for this kind of effect or a Seller of Songbirds variant where the main body is useless. But Outcast was legit good in that format with an evasive buddy + being able to trade with morphs/manifests if needed be. Gradually we've seen it go through Limited with various other cards at certain rarities where you're like wait why the fuck is Charging Monstrosaur an uncommon? This Rogue Refiner seems like the most pushed Wistful Selkie of all time. And now at higher rarities we get stuff like the Cavalier cycle where all of them have good bodies and multiple effects upon ETB and death. It's pretty wild in retrospect.

Pre-Walker was before my time as a player, but having looked at decklists and read up on matches from way back when, it just feels like decks were more intricate and based on synergies rather than raw power the majority of the time. There was a nuance to finding how various cards interacted and making a sum that was greater than the whole of their parts. I feel like they've absolutely dumbed the game down over the years as a whole, but that's definitely made it more accessible to the public at large. This is just where we're at with the game though, more recent "innovations" and fucked up environments are mostly due to their (Garbage) F.I.R.E philosophy. Not all is bad though since it's allowed them to try out some very cool designs over the last few years, but I do wish they were more diligent about toning down their pushed cards for each set. It's just silly when certain cards are obviously powerful in a vacuum.
 
Yeah. I'd be open to your ideas if they're gonna be quick for you to put together. I'm definitely going for the "living" cube feeling, but it's really hard to capture that same power level (a bit higher, cus this is fucking terrible on a lot of slots as I get more into it). Currently going to each creature and noncreature mana cost in each color and writing the best card in that 720 cube. That will serve as a potential skeleton for me going forward. I weirdly miss my nonblack color pairs :'(

I was going to comment how the red section's spells are the exact same as today except we have instants that banish instead.

The more I think about this, the more I've come up with the idea of "Powermax on Spells, Low Power Creatures."

Like Erik pointed out, a lot of the powerful spells we still play today were printed during the "early magic" period. We didn't start seeing a lot of good creatures (that weren't obvious mistakes) until 2006 or so, and creatures really didn't become what they are today until 2011 or 12. Locking someone out of the game with Isochron Scepter and Abeyance was a legit cube strategy- their creature's couldn't kill you fast enough to invalidate the lock! Plus, you still had access to most all of the insane removal like Sword to Plowshares, Terror, and Lightning Bolt

If you want to build a modernized version of a mid-2000s cube, then I think a good place to start would be look at the creature base and try to modernize what they were using back then. Creatures of the old power level haven't gone away, we just don't notice them as much as we used to. For example, there are like 4 Goldmeadow Harrier variants these days. You can replace some of the boring old bad stuff with generic dudes with low-power abilities. For example, I'd replace some of the {W}{W} knight cards with newer two-drops. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is better than Longbow Archer, but she isn't more relevant on the board- her static ability is just better.

The things I would avoid that scream "MODERN MAGIC" to me are cards like Monastery Swiftspear, Thraben Inspector, Snapcaster Mage, and Thragtusk. All of these creatures are very efficient or really swing the game in some major way. Thraben Inspector is a cheap, "above curve" creature which provides card advantage. Snapcaster Mage is an instant speed threat that allows you to re-cycle one of your best spells in the late game. Thragtusk is Thragtusk, what more is there to say? Monastery Swiftspear is a hyper efficient creature which can grow well beyond the size of any other creature on the board in the early game. It makes your Hammer of Bogardan look silly.

I'd actually avoid all of the prowess cards because they're just creatures that grow when you cast your good spells in a format like this. I should not get to swing with a 3/3 lifelink just for casting my Orim's Chant. The same goes for Landfall- getting value from our on-curve guys just for playing the game is a No-no. The reason why stuff like Dark Confidant was so good back then was because he sat on the board and gave his controller free stuff. Dark Confidant and other static providing friends are fine, but you can't have too many of them.

Also, any mechanic like Adventures where you get to play a spell or a good ability only to turn around and get an on-curve or above-curve creature is bad. This should go without saying, but hyper-efficient cards do not mesh well with slow decks trying to do neat things with old power.

That's all I have for now. Talking about this kind of makes me want to put together a list, but I wouldn't be able to ever actually draft the thing so I'm not sure there's really a point.

Bye for now!
 
I've definitely been leaning towards "8/10 removal, 5/10 creatures" but I'm not sure I really love Fact or Fiction or Treachery or other nutty spells. I definitely think that the value of current creatures has been pushed to an extreme and they're very difficult to beat without falling behind unless you get to Wrath them. I just now went through all the multicolored spells and I'm trying to trim it down to a more manageable list where I've decided on probably 3 multicolor cards per color pair and what they signal for the archetype, while keeping in mind that X/X for X is a pretty decent creature.

Re-reading your post, I'd like to add that I'm not just looking to shift WW -> 1W. More trying to capture the approximate power level, up it just a bit, and then make it a better curve. There's a big lack of ones and twos in those lists and that can make the games drag, as I have experienced in old designs.

PLEASE, let me know if this seems horribly off the mark: Merfolk Skydiver, Plaxcaster Frogling, Sharktocrab as my Simic section. All X/X for X. All +1/+1 counters. All have an upside that requires investment and will further the synergies of their ideal deck.
 
That was a bit of a stretch in my opinion. I don't think it's stifling (in terms of power level) old school creatures like Wild Mogrel or Flametongue Kavu or even "older" stuff like River Boa.
I didn't want to nitpick lol.

Interestingly, I'd had my eye on Thraben. In 2006-07, there weren't many 2 power one drops. I think that finding excellent 1 power one drops is an interesting endeavor for this idea.

What happened to this forum during Covid-19 outbreak?

All the discussions are so interesting and deep.

Ps. I miss Extended and my Bant Wake deck.
We're bored and trapped with our minds.

I remember the first time I ever saw Wake in person and I got absolutely slapped by it. Awesome card. Probably too generic for what I have in mind currently, but that's ok.



I just looked through a bunch of old Standard decks on mtgtop8 and SO MANY of them are running 6-8 birds/elves. Savannah Lions defined an era back then between Zoo and Boros, and yet, we see Goryo's Vengeance around the same time, as well as an excessively oppressive Glare of Subdual deck.

It's so interesting how the turn one accelerants are perceived as being extremely powerful and Goryo's is one of the most broken reanimation spells of all time... And yet... Right before they arrived, a vanilla 2/1 ruled the land. And a 2GW clunky enchantment won aWorld Championships. Sure, we look at the cubes Train posted and the cards are laughably weak, but this wasn't an era defined by weakness. It was an era defined by synergy. That's what is missing. Modern stuff is just a bit too fast to let you set up your somewhat slow synergy and it's just a bit too strong on an individual card basis to let that synergy shine.

WU might be blink or artifacts or flyers. UB is maybe reanimator, but I dunno if Zombify is too strong here. BR sac with bears as the anchors. RG is either a lands deck or a power matters deck, the latter being more generic. GW is my famous Legendary theme with Sisay as a nice, slow engine. WB is a lifegain deck. UR spells, Jori En OP? BG creature yard value thing. RW is either heroic or double strike or something. GU is +1/+1 counters.
 
I am not sure but I feel like you’re thinking of the Standard Selesnya Wake list that had huge wurms. I am talking about the supreme Extended version that dominated for a long time. It evolved from Kai Budde’s World Championship deck list that also ran Mirari to infinite loop spells from the sideboard. Back then ‘outside the game’ meant both exile and sideboard. In 2020 exile is part of the game.



Cunning Wake, Extended edition

The win condition


Decree would always be instant speed cycling.

The draw to get there


Cards being put into graveyard still had value. Compulsion activations required only 1 land after Wake hit the board. Resolving a Fact would make villain concede most of the times.

The delay


The wish

and 11 instants in the sideboard. The last 4 spots were Exalted Angel to board in when villain had boarded out all creature removal.

The deck would 90 % operate on villain’s turn. The only exception where you would tap all your lands in your own turn would be for casting one of the four Wrath of Gods.

This was near unbeatable for quite some time. That is a deck I miss :p It doesn’t even work properly according to the rules anymore since your Moment’s Peaces will now enter exile and not ‘outside the game’ when you flashback them. In 2020 this deck would also auto lose to a resolved planeswalker.

In my cube I am trying to make decks like these possible but not dominant. A co-cuber of mine once asked me how to build a deck with counterspells and I ignorantly answered that he should just pick them up and play control. We tried to forcing it several times on a practice table just him and me and it turned out to be impossible because you need a decent amount of flash/instant/activated abilities effects in your deck in order to be a permission control deck. Otherwise you tap out and villain can just cast their spells uncountered. Therefore we made a switch to go 80 % instant/flash in blue. Out went Preordain kind of cards and in came Omen of the Sea type of cards. Now counterspells are at their full value if you build your deck around them.
 
Some of my friends have been thinking along a similar axis and we've just started running pre-Innistrad legacy events, with Innistrad block being the cut-off due to stuff like Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Liliana of the Veil, Thalia, Griselbrand and Terminus. The first event was at the end of February, and there's some pictures here: https://imgur.com/gallery/8MQMzww if you want an idea of cards/strategies that were good back then. It was going to be run again last weekend but was cancelled due to Covid.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Some of my friends have been thinking along a similar axis and we've just started running pre-Innistrad legacy events, with Innistrad block being the cut-off due to stuff like Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Liliana of the Veil, Thalia, Griselbrand and Terminus. The first event was at the end of February, and there's some pictures here: https://imgur.com/gallery/8MQMzww if you want an idea of cards/strategies that were good back then. It was going to be run again last weekend but was cancelled due to Covid.

Grave Titan OP OP! If you really want to do a cube that feels like it's about synergies, I don't think you want to include Titan-level includes, maybe skip mythics altogether (which conveniently would exclude most planeswalkers). Skeletal Vampire is much closer to the power level of creatures back in the day, and it was a legit control finisher.

This is a good deck from way back when that gets me nostalgic, just look at that curve! https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/solar-flare-2011-09-28
 
Skeletal Vampire is legit.

As I look more at the older formats, I think a big part of it is that there was strong early plays like birds and signets that we all fear these days. I hate seeing that turn two 4/4 into turn three 5/5. But we didn't have that. You'd play a turn two Hippie or Ohran Viper or something. What I'm angling at is that, outside Wrath of God on turn 3, which is a serious roadblock and I need to look into that a bit more, basically there wasn't really the payoffs we have now. Bogardan Hellkite on 8 is basically half of the modern Atarka, which costs 7. Loxodon Hierarch is no Polukranos.

It's a lot to figure out what made that era tick. I feel like we loop back to it often, so I'll keep throwing out info and see where we get. I feel like it's something we can replicate, but I also feel like it's not going to be easy.
 
Top