General CBS
- Thread starter James Stevenson
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I don't think so. Firebolt is good because you can kill a Birds of Paradise on t1 and get extra value out of it later, or kill some 4-toughness monster in the late game. And no, Goggles will never allow you to kill that bird on turn one. What it will do is double all of your burn spells, or sicker stuff if you have it in your deck. The question was, isn't five mana too much for this card, and going by the flashback cost on Firebolt I'ld say no, five mana is not too much for this effect. That is, it turns every red spell in your deck into a super filthy version of itself. It lets your burn spells deal one for one with big threats, it supercharges your red loot effects into better card draw effects than blue has to offer, turns decent combat tricks insane, and transforms Cruel Ultimatum into Cruel Sorry But You Missed the Deadline.
Aoret
Developer
Again, no issue with your other lines of reasoning "it doubles this list of cool spells in control decks that can afford to be slow etc". But I still disagree that a comparison to Firebolt has anything whatsoever to do with goggles. They're simply two entirely different effects. Firebolt does something t1 and something t5+. Goggles does something t6+ only. Now, that may still be fine, and you may want that effect at that point in the game, but let's at least have the right conversation.
I think a more productive discussion is "does doing all of this sweet shit from turn 6 onwards justify this card?". Stuff about firebolt is leading the discussion astray
I think a more productive discussion is "does doing all of this sweet shit from turn 6 onwards justify this card?". Stuff about firebolt is leading the discussion astray
FWIW i think goggles is a pretty fun tinker target if you do URtifacts.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Actually it casts Firebolt on turn five. Twice
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I would be really curious if anyone has tried this with a tinker package.
My inner johnny also wants to see the goggles in action with:
Probably terrible, but oh so sweet.
Hey, if you have boros reckoner and goggles and into the maw, it's a OHKO!
Wait no
Wait no
Close enough though
Laz
Developer
This thread got so Timmy so quickly.
Goggles seem neat, but probably not for a more powerful environment. I am looking at all of the Twin-cast and Prophetic Bolt style cards here and have to wonder if there is some dopey spell filled format where this is awesome, because that sounds like the sort of place I would have fun.
Goggles seem neat, but probably not for a more powerful environment. I am looking at all of the Twin-cast and Prophetic Bolt style cards here and have to wonder if there is some dopey spell filled format where this is awesome, because that sounds like the sort of place I would have fun.
Yeah, I would be really curious if anyone has tried this with a tinker package.
My inner johnny also wants to see the goggles in action with:
Probably terrible, but oh so sweet.
In another world Nivmagus is a 2/1 and we all cube with it while very seldomly doing sweet things with it.
Goggles is great over here and my format is somewhat strong and very tempo-y.
Not every deck can use it, that's true! But it's a sweet enabler, and it's not really remotely near the cut list currently for me. I've been happy to use it in a BR control deck with only 4 actual doubling targets, because it also doubles flashbacked cards and serves as a tiiiiny accelerant for decks that are mana-thirsty. I think if you go into it comparing it to Mirari's Wake, that's a mistake, because 2x mana does little without significant card draw or x spells; making every red instant and sorcery you draw equal to drawing a second free copy, though, is a real form of powerful card advantage. Even at a baseline, it can offer a 6 mana for 4 damage and scry 2, scry 2 off a Magma Jet. I get that that's a 2-card tango, but my point is, I personally would strongly consider cubing a instant that says: "deal 4 damage to one target or 2 damage to two targets. Scry 2. Scry 2." and that's just one case. If your deck can get 6-7 targets, it can be really fun and powerful without being menacing. It's not always a snatch-grab but I think it's a better buildaround than a lot of other cards we like to run (lookin at you LftL)
Not every deck can use it, that's true! But it's a sweet enabler, and it's not really remotely near the cut list currently for me. I've been happy to use it in a BR control deck with only 4 actual doubling targets, because it also doubles flashbacked cards and serves as a tiiiiny accelerant for decks that are mana-thirsty. I think if you go into it comparing it to Mirari's Wake, that's a mistake, because 2x mana does little without significant card draw or x spells; making every red instant and sorcery you draw equal to drawing a second free copy, though, is a real form of powerful card advantage. Even at a baseline, it can offer a 6 mana for 4 damage and scry 2, scry 2 off a Magma Jet. I get that that's a 2-card tango, but my point is, I personally would strongly consider cubing a
instant that says: "deal 4 damage to one target or 2 damage to two targets. Scry 2. Scry 2." and that's just one case. If your deck can get 6-7 targets, it can be really fun and powerful without being menacing. It's not always a snatch-grab but I think it's a better buildaround than a lot of other cards we like to run (lookin at you LftL)Yeah, the virtual card advantage is a big draw for me. Red spells are almost always things you want to copy because of their (generally) versatile nature; so doubling them is basically drawing a card for your average red deck.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I wonder if goggles would be better as a cheaper creature
Maybe like sharpie the fuck out of Sisters of the Flame
Maybe like sharpie the fuck out of Sisters of the Flame
Why would you say that?
For starters, it's one of the few Tinker targets that can be used effectively on the turn it hits the board (tinker for goggles, bolt with goggles mana, you have no board now, pass). For seconds, it's more likely to wheel to the UR artifacts player than, say, Battleball. I'd put it in the same range of Tinker acceptability as precursor golem, in that it's not a bomb-diggity game-ender, but it is fun, and you do feel ahead when you sac a thopter or whatever then untap with your goggles on t4.
What did you guys think about the Pro Tour? Not a lot of BFZ to be seen. I watched a few matches and it looked fairly challenging to come back in this format. Nobody really had any wrath effects, and Silkwrap was the only thing that could really trade 1-for-1 with Hangerback. Format needs an upgrade to Fiery Impulse, some Pillar of Flame type of effect.
I've been using all my video time on Netflix anime, but from your description the format sounds kinda lame—this week, anyway. Also Hangarback Walker just feels like the Mental Misstep of Standard from the limited playtime I've had with it.
But, I wonder if people will try putting together an Esper Awaken control deck now that there's pro footage to watch and learn from. Halimar Tidecaller seems like a pretty good Snapcaster-imitation card for a deck that can run Awaken-Cancel, Awaken-Downfall, Awaken-Wrath, and Awaken-Unsummon, but there's a bit of a glut at 3 in that skeleton. So maybe you run 12 gainlands and don't even mess around with curving out or having non-Awaken finishers? Maybe I'm terrible at Magic?
But, I wonder if people will try putting together an Esper Awaken control deck now that there's pro footage to watch and learn from. Halimar Tidecaller seems like a pretty good Snapcaster-imitation card for a deck that can run Awaken-Cancel, Awaken-Downfall, Awaken-Wrath, and Awaken-Unsummon, but there's a bit of a glut at 3 in that skeleton. So maybe you run 12 gainlands and don't even mess around with curving out or having non-Awaken finishers? Maybe I'm terrible at Magic?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Oh yeah magma spray rotated didnt it
Aoret
Developer
This is random but I've been seeing lots of newer players in my playgroup jamming Top into very aggressive decks. My brain hates the idea of spending a card (and a mana per turn) on card quality in a deck that just wants to kill my opponent.... can somebody who actually knows how to play this game confirm or deny this for me?
Like... I'm winning games against these decks but I don't feel as confident telling them not to run top as I do telling them not to run, say, Demonic Tutor.
Like... I'm winning games against these decks but I don't feel as confident telling them not to run top as I do telling them not to run, say, Demonic Tutor.
i love d. tutor in aggro and loathe top, which is too expensive for results you can approach with diligent deckbuilding
soulja boy tell 'em
Aoret
Developer
That's the same argument I leveled at the use of top; if you just run redundant effects, you save mana (time) and a card. Interesting that you feel differently about tutor! I may have to try it myself just to see how it feels running it. It did get used against me once as a three mana path to exile which probably isn't terrible. Normally I like it a lot better in control or combo decks that either can afford to take their time or specifically need to assemble synergistic pieces.