General CBS

[Rusje]

you got flack because mechanics aren't actually subsets of other mechanics most of the time*. you can make mechanics behave like other mechanics by creative usages, but that doesn't make them subsets. Even ward 15 is still not hexproof (especially in EDH), and the uncounterable thing definitely can't be left aside, as blacksmithy notes.

they are their own thing. Ward is being praised because it's excellent (and focused. It does one thing, creature protection). Kicker is hated on because it's not excellent (generic and too broad)


*Just one reason that Overload, for an example, isn't even an actual "subset" of kicker:

• If you cast a card "without paying its mana cost," you can't pay any alternative costs. You can pay additional costs such as kicker costs. If the card has mandatory additional costs, you must pay those.

You can't overload a card when it's cast for free, but you can kick. There's also a critical difference with, say, Snapcaster Mage. The flashback granted does not let you cast overloads, but you can still kick as you flash a spell back.

Those are corner cases created by rule differences to differentiate how they work while how they work are essentially the same.
You could just as wel create kicker and rekcik where one of the two could be done while paying alternative costs and one where those things cannot be done.

Ward a lot or ward you lose the game are essentially hexproof. I quite like ward 1, 2, pay 1 life or something like that. More and it becomes for practical purposes hexproof. The glasskite example is just a lot nicer.
My main grip with ward is that it is again only a pro ability without a con.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

My main grip with ward is that it is again only a pro ability without a con.

I think that's just because your expectations were set by the older abilities, like shroud. There's lots of abilities that are positive only, like flying, first strike, vigilance, and all the other keywords. There's actually only very few that are pro with a con. This is not necessarily a problem, as those positive only keywords actually create interesting play patterns. Ward has that same ability. Game states are not inherently less interesting because you can touch your own ward creature (with, e.g., a pump spell), but your opponent has more trouble targeting it with a kill spell. If anything, changing hexproof to ward has made the game more interactive. You can complain about how ward 13 is essentially hexproof (it isn't quite, but close enough for most purposes), but show me the creatures that WotC has printed with ward 13 (or any other super high number)? Ward wasn't designed to create a hexproof 2.0, it was created to make a better protective keyword without the huge downsides of hexproof. You might see the occasional ward 4 (or even slightly higher) on high mv creatures, but it's very unlikely that they'll print a slew of low mv creatures with high ward costs. I'm super happy WotC switched to ward, because that's going to lead to considerably less nongames than hexproof and protection ever did.

 

[Rusje]

I think that's just because your expectations were set by the older abilities, like shroud. There's lots of abilities that are positive only, like flying, first strike, vigilance, and all the other keywords. There's actually only very few that are pro with a con. This is not necessarily a problem, as those positive only keywords actually create interesting play patterns. Ward has that same ability. Game states are not inherently less interesting because you can touch your own ward creature (with, e.g., a pump spell), but your opponent has more trouble targeting it with a kill spell. If anything, changing hexproof to ward has made the game more interactive. You can complain about how ward 13 is essentially hexproof (it isn't quite, but close enough for most purposes), but show me the creatures that WotC has printed with ward 13 (or any other super high number)? Ward wasn't designed to create a hexproof 2.0, it was created to make a better protective keyword without the huge downsides of hexproof. You might see the occasional ward 4 (or even slightly higher) on high mv creatures, but it's very unlikely that they'll print a slew of low mv creatures with high ward costs. I'm super happy WotC switched to ward, because that's going to lead to considerably less nongames than hexproof and protection ever did.

I agree it is a step in the right direction. However any keyword which reduces interaction of one side: like hexproof and ward, are most of the time joysuckers. There are plenty cards which actually make flying worse, like Plummet. They could create spells which say destroy target creature with hexproof, this overrules hexproof. But it will extremely wordy since not overrules yes in mtg rules.

Protection is not in this corner since it requires deck building decisions.

 

[landofMordor]

I freaking love Ward. The line in the sand between Baneslayer angel and Mulldrifter is one drawn by the expected removal in a format. Certain abilities, like Haste or end step triggers, let creatures switch-hit between BSA and mulldrifter based on the game state. But Ward! Ward lets individual creatures be fractional baneslayers at all times, and sets a hard lower limit for the tempo that removal can earn. Good stuff all around.

 

[sigh]

I also like that it adds slightly more equity to countermagic in control decks.Counterspell can still counter a ward 4 creature for 2 mana no problem. Really interesting and deep mechanic.

 

[Velrun]

I like Ward or discard a card.

Ward feels useless enough to me that it simply adds to the number of lines of text on the card at not enough benefit. And Wars would be stupid in my eyes.

 

[blacksmithy]

the alternate ward costs are cool to me too.
i wanna see “Ward-sac a creature” or something like that

 

[Chris Taylor]

I like Ward or discard a card.

Ward feels useless enough to me that it simply adds to the number of lines of text on the card at not enough benefit. And Wars would be stupid in my eyes.

I used to feel the same, but looking at where the mechanic is actually used, everything printed into standard has ward 1, 2, 3, discard a card, or exactly 3 life, preportional to their cost and color.

Iymrith, Desert Doom has conditional ward 4, and I've already explained why I love that
TECHNICALLY there is The Tarrasque, but at that mana cost and requiring casting it you deserve hexproof.

Other than that? Octavia, Living Thesis (8), Neverwinter Hydra (4) & Winged Boots (4, and how is this a name that got used in 2021?) are all EDH only, where occasionally you'll get people with 35 mana lying around, so we're safe.

I agree it is a step in the right direction. However any keyword which reduces interaction of one side: like hexproof and ward, are most of the time joysuckers. There are plenty cards which actually make flying worse, like Plummet. They could create spells which say destroy target creature with hexproof, this overrules hexproof. But it will extremely wordy since not overrules yes in mtg rules.

Protection is not in this corner since it requires deck building decisions.

So, no. hexproof and protection and all the mechanic that piss people off like this ELIMINATE the ability for one player to interact, they don't reduce it. Ward is specifically interesting in that it reduces it, but not all the way, evenly across the board.

Ward reduces interaction like a creature being black does, or having 4 toughness.

Also telling me flying creatures are worse because plummet exists is peak internet technicality. There's situations where lightning bolt is worse than shock too, but nobody operates this way.
Protection also has nothing to do with your deck, and everything to do with your opponents deck.

 

[Chris Taylor]

the alternate ward costs are cool to me too.
i wanna see “Ward-sac a creature” or something like that

In a perfect world, this would be an option, but "hexproof from control decks" is probably beyond the scope of what they want out of this mechanic

 

[Rusje]

I used to feel the same, but looking at where the mechanic is actually used, everything printed into standard has ward 1, 2, 3, discard a card, or exactly 3 life, preportional to their cost and color.

Iymrith, Desert Doom has conditional ward 4, and I've already explained why I love that
TECHNICALLY there is The Tarrasque, but at that mana cost and requiring casting it you deserve hexproof.

Other than that? Octavia, Living Thesis (8), Neverwinter Hydra (4) & Winged Boots (4, and how is this a name that got used in 2021?) are all EDH only, where occasionally you'll get people with 35 mana lying around, so we're safe.


So, no. hexproof and protection and all the mechanic that piss people off like this ELIMINATE the ability for one player to interact, they don't reduce it. Ward is specifically interesting in that it reduces it, but not all the way, evenly across the board.

Ward reduces interaction like a creature being black does, or having 4 toughness.

Also telling me flying creatures are worse because plummet exists is peak internet technicality. There's situations where lightning bolt is worse than shock too, but nobody operates this way.
Protection also has nothing to do with your deck, and everything to do with your opponents deck.

The distinction is that an interaction card has restrictions vs the target is restricting what it can target. The former is okay, the latter not.
My point about flying and plummet was that flying does not reduce most interaction cards. It reduces blocking. My gripe with hexproof and ward is that, unlike shroud, they restrict interaction by the opponent only.
Protection requires deck building decisions. You cannot
enchant/equip your own creature if it has protection from that color/type/artifact. I understand the feel bads of protection but that has more to do with the pushedness of those cards than with protection itself. If someone has a 2/2 which has protection from green it can roadblock one of my big green creatures, so can a creature with regenerate.

 

[Velrun]

I used to feel the same, but looking at where the mechanic is actually used, everything printed into standard has ward 1, 2, 3, discard a card, or exactly 3 life, preportional to their cost and color.

Iymrith, Desert Doom has conditional ward 4, and I've already explained why I love that
TECHNICALLY there is The Tarrasque, but at that mana cost and requiring casting it you deserve hexproof.

Other than that? Octavia, Living Thesis (8), Neverwinter Hydra (4) & Winged Boots (4, and how is this a name that got used in 2021?) are all EDH only, where occasionally you'll get people with 35 mana lying around, so we're safe.

You started out saying “I used to feel the same…” and then you continued with some interesting stuff. But you never said how you felt now. And why you felt a different way. I still like Ward 2, 3 and discard/sacrifice/minor card advantage. What changed for you?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

The distinction is that an interaction card has restrictions vs the target is restricting what it can target. The former is okay, the latter not.

The thing is, ward does not (technically) restrict what you can target, it just modifies the cost of targeting it. This makes ward play out completely different from hexproof and protection. Anything that can kill an Enormous Baloth can also kill a Purple Wurm, the answer simply costs more. Now tell me how that Murder is going to help you deal with it Plated Crusher? Hexproof really isn't the same as ward, even though the two mechanics are conceptually related. You, apparently, feel that anything messing with the opponent only is a bad thing, but most things in Magic mess with the opponent only. It's kind of a weird line to draw. The problem with hexproof, in my opinion, isn't that it restricts interaction by the opponent, the problem is that it completely prevents interaction. That's why a lot of people here are very happy with ward. It offers some measure of protection, without completely preventing the opponent to interact if needed.

 

[Rusje]

The thing is, ward does not (technically) restrict what you can target, it just modifies the cost of targeting it. This makes ward play out completely different from hexproof and protection. Anything that can kill an Enormous Baloth can also kill a Purple Wurm, the answer simply costs more. Now tell me how that Murder is going to help you deal with it Plated Crusher? Hexproof really isn't the same as ward, even though the two mechanics are conceptually related. You, apparently, feel that anything messing with the opponent only is a bad thing, but most things in Magic mess with the opponent only. It's kind of a weird line to draw. The problem with hexproof, in my opinion, isn't that it restricts interaction by the opponent, the problem is that it completely prevents interaction. That's why a lot of people here are very happy with ward. It offers some measure of protection, without completely preventing the opponent to interact if needed.

Ward a lot is practically the same as hexproof. That was my whole point. I also stated multiple times that ward something small seems okay.

I have zero issues with shroud, unlike hexproof.
I also stated that I rather had ward hold for both players. Maybe I just miss the old times where creatures had drawbacks and still in draft/sealed it was the way to kill your opponent.

Normally answers are cheaper than threats since an answer needs a threat to not be a dead card. Ward changes this mechanic, maybe so much that it is better to deploy your own threat instead of answering. This removes a lot of the counterplay and also the risk that comes with deploying a threat. It could be that the riskless deployment is were my dislike for hexproof and ward comes from.

Ward and hexproof make Council's judgment and wrath of god stronger while simultaneously making terror weaker. For me this feels like less interaction.

 

[sigh]

less interaction versus no interaction. A huge gulf of difference.

Flying is also less interaction. You can't block it with any non-fliers.

 

[Rusje]

less interaction versus no interaction. A huge gulf of difference.

Flying is also less interaction. You can't block it with any non-fliers.

So is unblockable. I have no issues with flying or unblockable, since normally you could do something against it. True, you can block a creature with ward. But an artifact with hexproof or ward makes interaction really difficult. Again, at this time there is no con for ward or hexproof while there are definitely cons for flying. ( unblockable has no cons as far as I am aware).

 

[sigh]

I have no problem with unblockable even though it has no downsides that I know of, but I have a problem with ward because it has no downside....



Also spending a couple extra mana or life is not "really hard" in my book.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

So is unblockable. I have no issues with flying or unblockable, since normally you could do something against it. True, you can block a creature with ward. But an artifact with hexproof or ward makes interaction really difficult. Again, at this time there is no con for ward or hexproof while there are definitely cons for flying. ( unblockable has no cons as far as I am aware).

Well I mean ward would likely factor into the mana value or rarity of the card in question, no?

 

[sigh]

it also likely reduces the chance that the creature has an ETB (because that's kinda pointless. Mulldrifter already drifted before it got removed... talk about no interaction opportunity...).

 

[Zoss]

it also likely reduces the chance that the creature has an ETB (because that's kinda pointless. Mulldrifter already drifted before it got removed... talk about no interaction opportunity...).

See, this is where your argument falls apart. It's patently obvious that the "mulling" part of Mulldrifter is the half that draws you two cards, whereas "drifting" can only refer to the 2/2 flying body. Therefore the "mulling" portion is the only thing that can evade removal with certainty, not the "drifting" part, and anyone who claims otherwise cannot be trusted. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. /s

 

[Velrun]

Can someone please take a look at my cube, scroll all the way to the bottom and then scroll about 1 page up.

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/5fa6f24700b06b0fe8462ebd?view=spoiler

As you can see, all the mono blue lands are together right after each other. The same with black, red and green. But the white are mixed with the colorless. When I click on Vivid Meadow and Wasteland they seem to have the same settings except Meadow is a white land and Waste is a colorless land.

 

[landofMordor]

I have a problem with ward because it has no downside....

OH something just crystallized for me. The downside of Ward is that your creature still dies to removal, with all the risk of tempo blowout and lack of value generation that entails. The best uses of Ward, therefore, are when Ward is not a mechanic given to creatures to give them "pure upside" a la Flying; it is when Ward is a "downside mitigation" mechanic that goes on Baneslayers to make them suck less. So, counter to @Rusje's argument about deckbuilding costs, Ward does still come with deckbuilding restrictions in the same way that putting literal BSA in your deck does -- you know you're gonna get occasionally blown out by removal to some extent, and you therefore have to sideboard/deckbuild differently.

Protection and Hexproof may have had the same intentions, but Pro is more polar than Ward (since they either have the correct type of removal or they get 100% hosed) and Hexproof is too heavy-handed (as it usually leads to complete uninteraction).

More generally, all of Magic's creature keywords are trying to address fundamental quirks in the game engine: namely, that blocking is a higher-agency action in Magic than attacking; and that removal is usually costed much cheaper than the things it removes. Keywords are "all-upside" when you consider only the card they're printed on relative to a vanilla creature. But if you tilt your head sideways, their real rules text is "congrats, you don't get screwed so frequently by Magic's card economy and combat system", and they do have downsides because they don't completely address that fundamental need to deckbuild against getting screwed by the game engine. (And the ones that do completely mitigate that, like Pro in the right matchup and Hexproof in others and Moat in others, are no fun. True-Name Nemesis can always attack and rarely gets answered by removal, but it also is a sucky play pattern for the majority of Magic players.)

But! I'm not tryna die on this hill; don't @ me if you have semantic disagreements. I'll pre-reply by saying "touche, let's move on" (;

 

[Zoss]

Can someone please take a look at my cube, scroll all the way to the bottom and then scroll about 1 page up.

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/5fa6f24700b06b0fe8462ebd?view=spoiler

As you can see, all the mono blue lands are together right after each other. The same with black, red and green. But the white are mixed with the colorless. When I click on Vivid Meadow and Wasteland they seem to have the same settings except Meadow is a white land and Waste is a colorless land.

One thing that I'm seeing is that your lands for W all have a MV of 0 whereas your other lands have an MV of 1. Maybe that's what's causing it?



edit: just checked, this is true of the non-custom lands as well (Frost Dragon Cave vs. Storm Giant Beachhouse)

 

[Velrun]

One thing that I'm seeing is that your lands for W all have a MV of 0 whereas your other lands have an MV of 1. Maybe that's what's causing it?

Thanks! <3

That fixed it.

I swear, CubeCobra has the weirdest mistakes still. Sometimes it feels like a brand new beginner's project. In order to color sort the mono colored lands, we have to give them mana value because adding colors is not enough.

 

[japahn]

Thanks! <3

That fixed it.

I swear, CubeCobra has the weirdest mistakes still. Sometimes it feels like a brand new beginner's project. In order to color sort the mono colored lands, we have to give them mana value because adding colors is not enough.

I feel the opposite, CubeCobra is remarkably good for a site that's not professionally developed. Yes, there are some weird bugs, but it's a very complex domain and I didn't expect as polished an experience as it provides given this domain.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Thanks! <3

That fixed it.

I swear, CubeCobra has the weirdest mistakes still. Sometimes it feels like a brand new beginner's project. In order to color sort the mono colored lands, we have to give them mana value because adding colors is not enough.

Alternativel, you can put them under their respective color categories. For example, if you change the color category of Academy Tolaria to blue, it will show up in its own land section in the blue column.