Chris Taylor
Contributor
I mean clerics are prep casters anyways so you're less "taking" cure wounds and more "deciding you want to have it today"
General CBS
- Thread starter James Stevenson
- Start date
I think it's another tuning mechanism - Outside of thematic differences, Surveil is undeniably stronger than scry and has many more synergies so if they want to nudge the power or complexity of a set up it will feature Surveil (Probably along other graveyard mechanics like in its introduction with Jump Start), and if they want to tune it down, it'll be scry.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I think having both around as options is nice, especially since new players consistently feel bad about putting cards in their graveyard.
I don't think we ever want to be at a point where that's just dismissed.
I don't think we ever want to be at a point where that's just dismissed.
one thing that scry does and surveil doesn’t is help you NOT deck out when you’re playing Devious Cover-Up style control decks in cube
it’s just really nice to have both mechanics available for tuning a card design, they’re both excellent, high-agency smoothing mechanics.
it’s just really nice to have both mechanics available for tuning a card design, they’re both excellent, high-agency smoothing mechanics.
Ouch. Big assumption, but suppose that not too many sets makes the best cards: after 2006 it goes downhill quicker than the truth in the world.
If you ignore all else (especially the infinite Commander products and secret lairs), have the 4 regular sets been worse in the last couple years?
2017
- Aether Revolt
- Amonkhet
- Hour of Devastation
- Ixalan
2018
- Rivals of Ixalan
- Core Set 2019
- Dominaria
- Guilds of Ravnica
2019
- Ravnica Allegiance
- Core Set 2020
- War of the Spark
- Throne of Eldraine
2020
- Theros Beyond Death
- Core Set 2021
- Ikoria
- Zendikar Rising
2021
- Kaldheim
- Strixhaven
- Adventures in the Forgotten Realms
- Midnight Hunt
- Crimson Vow
2022
- Kamigawa Neon Dynasty
- Streets of New Capenna
- Dominaria United
- The Brothers' War (unreleased)
I 'm an Old Fogey and feel like these sets were great from 2017-2019.
2020 was a really really weak year for me, I didn't like any of the sets.
2021 had Kaldheim which I liked a lot and AFR which I thought was fine and much better than a Core Set would've been. The rest of the sets didn't resonate with me at all, and this is the year I felt a huge complexity leap that made me stop reading a lot of cards, and this is one thing that to me was a stark quality downgrade in card design.
2022 has more of that complexity; I'm super on the fence with whether I like NEO, the flavor seems off to me, the mechanics are great, but the flavor is also kind of cool at the same time so it confuses me deeply. SNC was... urgh, I don't care for those cards, they are bland and look like customs. The balance is all over the place too. I think there could be a great set there, but it feels like a low quality design. DMU has cool kicker cards, and it's ok to me.
My very subjective grades on which sets I like the most would be:
2017
- Aether Revolt C-
- Amonkhet B-
- Hour of Devastation B+
- Ixalan B+
2018
- Rivals of Ixalan C-
- Core Set 2019 ? Don't remember
- Dominaria B
- Guilds of Ravnica C+
2019
- Ravnica Allegiance C-
- Core Set 2020 ? Don't remember
- War of the Spark B-
- Throne of Eldraine B
2020
- Theros Beyond Death D-
- Core Set 2021 ? Don't remember
- Ikoria D-
- Zendikar Rising D+
2021
- Kaldheim B
- Strixhaven D-
- Adventures in the Forgotten Realms C+
- Midnight Hunt C+
- Crimson Vow D
2022
- Kamigawa Neon Dynasty B or D depending on when you ask me, probably C then?
- Streets of New Capenna F
- Dominaria United C
2017
- Aether Revolt
- Amonkhet
- Hour of Devastation
- Ixalan
2018
- Rivals of Ixalan
- Core Set 2019
- Dominaria
- Guilds of Ravnica
2019
- Ravnica Allegiance
- Core Set 2020
- War of the Spark
- Throne of Eldraine
2020
- Theros Beyond Death
- Core Set 2021
- Ikoria
- Zendikar Rising
2021
- Kaldheim
- Strixhaven
- Adventures in the Forgotten Realms
- Midnight Hunt
- Crimson Vow
2022
- Kamigawa Neon Dynasty
- Streets of New Capenna
- Dominaria United
- The Brothers' War (unreleased)
I 'm an Old Fogey and feel like these sets were great from 2017-2019.
2020 was a really really weak year for me, I didn't like any of the sets.
2021 had Kaldheim which I liked a lot and AFR which I thought was fine and much better than a Core Set would've been. The rest of the sets didn't resonate with me at all, and this is the year I felt a huge complexity leap that made me stop reading a lot of cards, and this is one thing that to me was a stark quality downgrade in card design.
2022 has more of that complexity; I'm super on the fence with whether I like NEO, the flavor seems off to me, the mechanics are great, but the flavor is also kind of cool at the same time so it confuses me deeply. SNC was... urgh, I don't care for those cards, they are bland and look like customs. The balance is all over the place too. I think there could be a great set there, but it feels like a low quality design. DMU has cool kicker cards, and it's ok to me.
My very subjective grades on which sets I like the most would be:
2017
- Aether Revolt C-
- Amonkhet B-
- Hour of Devastation B+
- Ixalan B+
2018
- Rivals of Ixalan C-
- Core Set 2019 ? Don't remember
- Dominaria B
- Guilds of Ravnica C+
2019
- Ravnica Allegiance C-
- Core Set 2020 ? Don't remember
- War of the Spark B-
- Throne of Eldraine B
2020
- Theros Beyond Death D-
- Core Set 2021 ? Don't remember
- Ikoria D-
- Zendikar Rising D+
2021
- Kaldheim B
- Strixhaven D-
- Adventures in the Forgotten Realms C+
- Midnight Hunt C+
- Crimson Vow D
2022
- Kamigawa Neon Dynasty B or D depending on when you ask me, probably C then?
- Streets of New Capenna F
- Dominaria United C
It's kinda amazing how obvious the change in their priorities is.
For the first half of the game's lifespan, most products are black, with splashes of other colors.
Then there's a period where it's still mostly black products, but there's a relatively even mix.
And then, over the past few years, we've become very purple and red.
...
To answer Japahn's question... I feel like sets have been kinda inconsistent over the past few years? Like, NEO (which was a great set, in my opinion) was book-ended by two snooze-fests (VOW and SNC). 2020's ZKR had an excellent, novel use of double-sided cards, and then the following year of double-sided sets was pretty meh.
There's also the fact that Eldraine through Ikoria basically wrecked every competitive format, leading to an almost unprecedented number of bans across all formats.
For the first half of the game's lifespan, most products are black, with splashes of other colors.
Then there's a period where it's still mostly black products, but there's a relatively even mix.
And then, over the past few years, we've become very purple and red.
...
To answer Japahn's question... I feel like sets have been kinda inconsistent over the past few years? Like, NEO (which was a great set, in my opinion) was book-ended by two snooze-fests (VOW and SNC). 2020's ZKR had an excellent, novel use of double-sided cards, and then the following year of double-sided sets was pretty meh.
There's also the fact that Eldraine through Ikoria basically wrecked every competitive format, leading to an almost unprecedented number of bans across all formats.
Removed the chaffiest stuff to try to see what it looks like. blue things seem like a mix of good and bad, it's nice when expensive stuff gets reprinted, but none of us will actually want the product as sold, just some of the cards in it
The sheer number of releases just make everything meld into a non-descript mass to me. It is fun to see individual new card designs, but I'm just not excited or looking forward to releases as a whole like I was in the past.
I remember being really excited way back after Theros when we had months until Born of the Gods. That winter was when they brought up Commander 2013 which got a LOT of people into the format (myself included) and was a source of excitement. BNG ended up mostly sucking (however midnight spoilers were pretty sick), but I was definitely hyped when we got a preview of Kiora, the Crashing Wave around Christmas time. Same with the Ugin, the Spirit Dragon reveal a year later prior to Fate Reforged coming out. I used to look forward to the yearly commander set for new and innovative ideas they were trying out, but now it's been shooed into some random set release as a supplement instead of a standalone product (like Ikoria with mostly bad face commanders with set mechanics but a busted cycle of free spells). The first time we got Conspiracy or Battlebond as the yearly innovation product? Those were cool events to check out and helped break up the monotony of Core Set summer where you're just waiting for the big Fall release that they'd put extra work into.
They're making money hand over fist so fuck what I know, but I can't see how product dilution like this is sustainable for the brand as a whole when it's the opposite of how they've kept the game going for the 25 years beforehand. But I suppose that's an issue for the next CEO to deal with as I don't see them changing course anytime in the near future.
I remember being really excited way back after Theros when we had months until Born of the Gods. That winter was when they brought up Commander 2013 which got a LOT of people into the format (myself included) and was a source of excitement. BNG ended up mostly sucking (however midnight spoilers were pretty sick), but I was definitely hyped when we got a preview of Kiora, the Crashing Wave around Christmas time. Same with the Ugin, the Spirit Dragon reveal a year later prior to Fate Reforged coming out. I used to look forward to the yearly commander set for new and innovative ideas they were trying out, but now it's been shooed into some random set release as a supplement instead of a standalone product (like Ikoria with mostly bad face commanders with set mechanics but a busted cycle of free spells). The first time we got Conspiracy or Battlebond as the yearly innovation product? Those were cool events to check out and helped break up the monotony of Core Set summer where you're just waiting for the big Fall release that they'd put extra work into.
They're making money hand over fist so fuck what I know, but I can't see how product dilution like this is sustainable for the brand as a whole when it's the opposite of how they've kept the game going for the 25 years beforehand. But I suppose that's an issue for the next CEO to deal with as I don't see them changing course anytime in the near future.
I agree with the overall sentiment, but one area in which WotC has managed to consistently improve over the last five years is art. While there's a certain janky charm in old-school Magic art, the sheer variety and quality of art being released over the last five years has been nothing short of spectacular. Even SNC, a mediocre set, had a stunning frame treatment and some genuinely inspired art. Unfortunately, it's part of this overall trend of MOBA-ification that aims to juice the most money possible from consumers.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I don't think you can leave off the purple ones, but I do think you can remove the products with no symbol and a lot of the blue symbols. Basically all of the reprint only stuff is irrelevant for anything other than card accessibility and border fetishism (of which I myself am guilty, I want everything in the same modern border if possible). If I have some time I should like to make a revised version myself
First, back to sleep though...
Lucky you.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Aaaaaan it's gone :')
There has been, in my experience, a massive massive nosedive in the quality and diversity of Limited and Constructed formats since 2016. Apart from a very brief window (DOM, GRN, RNA), my draft experience with every set has felt very on-rails, with pick to pick, pack to pack decision making being basically non-existent - there is the right pick, the almost right pick, the card you pass to confirm the colour of the person next to you, and the chaff. There's no "The right pick to stay in your lane, the right pick to pivot, the rogue pick to go deep on unusual archetype". Dominaria was a brief return to limited perfection. I haven't been able to get a draft to fire since M21, since all of the drafters have just quit retail limited because it was boring for so very, very long, so maybe it's gotten better since then but I wouldn't be able to know.
Meanwhile, the diversity of the local standard and modern/pioneer metagame has fallen off a cliff - my preferred LGS used to have 60+ players every Friday from 2009 to about 2015, with 16 of them for modern each week and 6 or so for legacy once a month, and you wouldn't see more than 3 copies of the same deck. Since the Ramunap Red deck got banned in 20(18?) it's been "We hope we get 8 players", and every single one of them will experience at least one mirror match that night - and to make it worse, players are bringing Standard, Pioneer AND Modern, some of them even multiple decks for a format, just so they have a deck for whatever single event manages to fire and a loaner to guarantee there are enough people able to play. Modern is considered unplayable, because there's no sense you'll get to keep playing that deck you invested a thousand bucks into. Pioneer is the least likely to fire unless I happen to bring my two decks to loan while I draft or play EDH - which I only do if the really dedicated Pioneer couple are going to be there because they're lovely people and I like playing casual matches against them both. Standard is the most likely to fire, but it's equally likely people end up playing unsanctioned EDH and the match results just get falsified so the store keeps being able to give out FNM promos and get enough product to support their (much better attended) prereleases. If it wasn't for the generosity of our Judge, who gives out long out of print cards from the Player Rewards and Judge Rewards programs as lucky door prizes (and for last place if there are little tykes) the store would be -dead-.
Frankly, I don't care that Wizards is making hand over fist from Magic. They've killed The Gathering.
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
These are all the sets I consider relevant for Cube purposes, that is, all releases that added new cards to the card pool.
For those interested, here's the original source for this image. The article echoes a feeling a lot of us share, and I think this single line sums it up best: "It has become exhausting to be a fan of Magic: the Gathering." Over the course of six years, we've rapidly gone from 5-6 sets per year of interest to the Cube community, to double that amount. However, I will say that almost all of this change can be attributed to the introduction of set-bound commander product. Secret Lair Drops have been responsible for exactly one batch of new cards each year over the past three years. Maybe we should consider merging set threads and their accompanying commander product threads going forward, as well as having a single dedicated (pinned?) thread for all of the secret lair stuff, just to keep the discussion on new cards a bit more manageable and focused.
Looking on the bright side, if I ignore the small releases that add only a couple of cards (like Game Night: Free-for-All), and lump the commander sets together with their respective main sets, we're looking at 'only' 7 sets this year, and 6 last year, which is actually down from the 8 we got in 2020.
For those interested, here's the original source for this image. The article echoes a feeling a lot of us share, and I think this single line sums it up best: "It has become exhausting to be a fan of Magic: the Gathering." Over the course of six years, we've rapidly gone from 5-6 sets per year of interest to the Cube community, to double that amount. However, I will say that almost all of this change can be attributed to the introduction of set-bound commander product. Secret Lair Drops have been responsible for exactly one batch of new cards each year over the past three years. Maybe we should consider merging set threads and their accompanying commander product threads going forward, as well as having a single dedicated (pinned?) thread for all of the secret lair stuff, just to keep the discussion on new cards a bit more manageable and focused.
Looking on the bright side, if I ignore the small releases that add only a couple of cards (like Game Night: Free-for-All), and lump the commander sets together with their respective main sets, we're looking at 'only' 7 sets this year, and 6 last year, which is actually down from the 8 we got in 2020.
Echoes my experiences as well. The LGS that was the go-to for my playgroup throughout my college years (2013-16) with full pods for Standard and multiple pods for draft has become a skeleton crew over the past few years. I'm talking 3 draft pods and 25+ person Standard FNMs WoTC completely neutered all interest in Standard with that two year stretch of bannings. Same goes for two other stores in the area whose Standard scenes evaporated quickly. The only one that still fires off nowadays is the big store around here for the competitive scene, whatever that means nowadays, and has always had its own dedicated group of grinders.
I used to draft a new set at least 2-3 times after a release but I haven't felt any desire to do so for a long while now. The last set I really drafted thoroughly was RNA and most of them since then have been extremely mediocre for me. Wasn't a fan of War of the Spark at all, got busy following Fall and missed Eldraine aside from prerelease, Theros was alright, COVID annihilated the next year and half of set releases, I had zero desire to dice roll in AFR, Midnight Hunt prerelease turned me off after Day/Night so I just didn't play any more of those two sets, Kamigawa was pretty sweet the 2 times I was able to draft it, and SNC was horrid from what I've seen and heard from a friend who is big on Limited. Dominaria United? I'm too busy with work and other commitments so I haven't been able to try it out. Even if it were a hit with me, that's an abysmal hit rate for someone like me who used to be a big Limited enthusiast for years.
I still remember when we used to lend cards all throughout our playgroup (like 9-11 deep) so that those of us who wanted to play Standard could put together a tier 1 deck to try out while the rest would be in draft pods and we'd switch it up all the time. Gamedays were always a fun event, especially after new tech and decks emerged after the Pro Tour, and we'd also host weekly drafts on campus during Wednesday nights between midterms (Thu was EDH, Fridays were FNM). Watching random SCG in the background during the weekend or tuning into Pro Tour Friday on mute during lectures were events that kept us all super involved with the game. How did they just lose sight of all that? This is what kept the game going for YEARS; the sense of community and a whole ecosystem of engagement beyond the core gameplay itself. That's just not there anymore unless you're lucky enough to have cultivated your own playgroup. I have an active group of friends that still engage with the game, but none of us are anywhere near as into it as we were in years past.
Going full bore into digital eSpOrTz (nice spectator mode) and SLs and dilution across the board has been some of the most short-sighted decision-making I've ever seen them make (and that's saying a lot with how ass they managed everything tertiary to the actual game for years). And it's not like they were pouring a ton of money into the pro scene in the first place. I couldn't even fathom WHY anyone would want to be a Magic pro with how weak the prize pools were and how much work it took to actually be successful. Attractive to a broke college student? Hell yeah! To an adult with a good education and decent career post-graduation? Hell no. But even then, it provided an avenue for people who DID want to go down that path and they really weren't putting too many resources into that whole scene. It seemingly self-sustained itself AND served as a great vehicle for advertisement. Magic was just better when you had multiple ways to engage with the game.
It just seems so dumb to me to just neuter that entire aspect of your business in the name of pushing more SL collabs and other money-grubby tactics that they've leaned on heavily in recent years. Honestly if my playgroup wasn't still into EDH and if I wasn't already years into cube design I'm not sure if I would have stuck with Magic this long. If I were a new player to the scene I don't think I would even pick up the game nowadays because everything that attracted me back to the game in 2013 has been either removed or withered away to almost nothing in 2022.
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this
My favourite standard deck ever? I think I owned the lands and like, 8 cards. Everything else was on loan from like 5 other people, all of whom I was loaning stuff to in turn. Opinions about the latest stuff to happen on the pro tour, "How many copies of x is Chapin playing?" "What jank did Conley Woods bring?" "What's team Channel Fireball on for this event?" "Did you hear relevant local player made it to top 8?" (Won't name names but the dude taught me how to play Zendikar-era crabvine back when it was called dredge)
At the most active and friendly of my FLGS's (Not the same place as mentioned in my last post), the most you hear when talking about magic is gripes about how a card from a Horizons set messed up EDH, or the latest prices on whatever alt art foil treatment version of chase mythic costs now. They talk about having tried out Keyforge, or wanting to get into the V:tM LCG and whether the box price is worth it for a multiplayer-only game, or Flesh and Blood events that are firing, or that scam NFT TCG that was everywhere for a week and then fucking died. People don't even talk about magic while playing magic.
Onderzeeboot said:
Seconded. Please.
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I have been awake for... 39 hours at this point? I'm not sure how the hell that happened, but I'm going to off-jet a cube thought (because it makes me less sad than thinking about the slow, inexhorable death of people's love of Magic).
Ajani's Chosen cube, where Auras take the place of creatures. The main appeal is, like... this is what a two-drop looks like (remember, it's stapled to a 2/2):
Ajani's Chosen cube, where Auras take the place of creatures. The main appeal is, like... this is what a two-drop looks like (remember, it's stapled to a 2/2):
Maybe instead of coming in attached to a 2/2 white cat, the come in attached to an x/x (colour) where x is the mana cost of the aura and (colour) is the colour of the aura? So Aqueous Form is an unblockable 1/1 that scrys, Blessing of the Nephilim is an Isamaru, etc.
Is this the mythical cube where you run Arcanum Wings?
Is this an enchantment only cube, or would you consider stuff like Aura Graft? Can you attach the aura to an existing creature and skip getting the token?
Is this the mythical cube where you run Arcanum Wings?
Is this an enchantment only cube, or would you consider stuff like Aura Graft? Can you attach the aura to an existing creature and skip getting the token?
I remember having this exact feeling! I was sitting next to the fire at my parents house when Kiora dropped, and it was a very hype moment. She ended up taking spots in my Bant standard brew(s) I had all of RTR-THR.
I literally have not stuck with it. I do not play MTG any more (xcept every now and then with a couple old 60 card decks at work when some coworkers want to play at lunch). I do not buy MTG. I do not use my cube. I stick around here because it's a fun group of people to message with. Community and all that fuzzy wuzzy stuff.