Article ChannelFireball: Utility Land Draft

CML

CML

Contributor
i was wondering if something like ruins or stronghold would be ok if there was a higher density of wasteland effects. i guess we could have 4 wastelands in the main cube and 2 tec edges in the utility land draft (or some arrangement like that) -- but then wasteland punishes people for drafting nonbasics and blah. it gets pretty complicated.

how has this arrangement worked out for you, jason?
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Good cards win games, but Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold are also a little slow. I don't mind when they take over a game every now and then. Slow decks need help in my cube anyways.

In our cube everybody has lots of non-basics, but Wasteland isn't overwhelming or anything. Just yesterday I revealed a Wasteland off of Dark Confidant, and my opponent was able to play / fetch non-basics for a couple turns, then bait out the Wasteland activation off of a not very important utility land. It changed the game, but I don't think he was "punished" really. It's just a minor element that keeps things in check. Even 4 Wastelands for 8 people is not so many.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
it may be time for some more wastelands then! that sounds like a sweet dynamic. i don't play legacy without 4 wastelands and i once wrote an article (that might have been wrong) advocating a reprint for modern. wasteland is one of the most important cards in legacy -- i love the dynamic tension it creates between "guy with a ton of nonbasics" and "guy with wastelands," from a design perspective it's so much richer than printing low-power-level fixing.

do you find people do mono-colored in your cube? it hasn't really happened for awhile here. two-color decks are common enough, though (conceivably any two colors, but most commonly GW, though the GB UB UG decks i've seen lately were droolworthy)

anyway i'm trying 4 wastelands
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Jason Waddell said:
Are some of the Innistrad lands in your main cube?
Click to expand...

Yep, stuff like Gavony Township and Kessig Wolf Run were all stars in my main cube well before I'd heard of your utility land draft, so they get to maintain their A-list status. I'm consciously trying to keep the higher power stuff in the packs, so that players have to commit to a pick in order to nab the really sweet lands.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Eric -- where would you draw the line? I'd say for colorless lands only Township, Wolf Run, Stronghold, Ruins, Wasteland, (Strip Mine if you hate fun) are worth picks
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Good question. I don't even know where to draw the line in my own cube, so I'd be reluctant to generalize any kind of recommendation for others. I think where I'm going to set the bar here is when people aren't able to justify spending a pick on it, I'll move it from my main list to the utility pile. Right now, I'll aggressively take Gavony Township and Kessig Wolf Run to splash, and while I'm not as high on it as some others, people in my playgroup love them some Treetop Village. On the other hand, my cube is getting too fast for Shelldock Isle, to the point where it tables endlessly nowadays, so that seems like the perfect candidate for demotion.

Wasteland seems like it's a must in the main list. Colorless man lands like Mutavault are a high enough pick here that I like keeping them in my cube, but your mileage may vary.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
did a bit more upheaving; added three wastelands to the main cube, cut tec edge, used the two slots freed up for expedition map and mystifying maze (the only maze worth having).

i don't have any of the ISD lands in my main cube, though don't i have all of them except the trashy RB, GB, UG?
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
CML said:
did a bit more upheaving; added three wastelands to the main cube, cut tec edge, used the two slots freed up for expedition map and mystifying maze (the only maze worth having).

i don't have any of the ISD lands in my main cube, though don't i have all of them except the trashy RB, GB, UG?
Click to expand...

I only run 7 Innistrad lands as well. I tried the uncommon multicolor utility lands from original Ravnica too, but they were uniformly terrible.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
yeah those RGD cards aren't nearly powerful enough. skarrg is by far the best, maybe then vitu-ghazi - even svogthos isn't close to being worth considering even with a strong graveyard theme. rix maadi in reanimator?!

i think of it like this: in standard, a deck like junk rites often plays 0 basics and can only afford to run 1-2 colorless lands before they start to ruin the manabase. in modern and legacy things are less tenuous (though decks like 4c pod with its 2 townships and RUG with its 4 wastelands push things as far as possible) but it's still a significant sacrifice. it's a bigger sacrifice still in cube. that's a good reason to keep colorless lands to a minimum in the utility-land draft, as well as providing options like vivids or some other form of more fixing (filters + wwk in yours?) to offset that.

i'm pretty happy with where this is now, everyone agrees the lands are great fun. any power concerns with dust bowl? it took over a game yesterday, but i think that's fine, like if a game is being taken over by dust bowl thank god some card is stepping in to put the thing out of its misery
 
HannesVersmissen

HannesVersmissen

I run Vhitu ghazi in my main. It's one of the few lands that can make an actual body.

(i'm not using a utility land stack, as i allready have trouble gathering enough fixing for my main. If i had one it would be in there, definitly)
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I think I might take all fixers out of the utility stack. I'm not sure. We ran without the utility land draft as a test tonight, and I was able to pull off a four-color deck. I do love the man-lands though. So do the drafters. Really not sure here, thoughts?
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Jason Waddell said:
We ran without the utility land draft as a test tonight
Click to expand...


WHY WOULD YOU DO SUCH A THING WHYYY

That might be a good line in the sand to draw, though. All fixers in the main cube, all utility lands in the utility land pile. Would there still be enough functional lands to justify four picks apiece this way? And could you just slot the manlands into your main cube, in addition to your existing fixing?
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
FWIW, Collenade and Tar-Pit are certainly worth picks over here, and Ravine only isn't because people hate r/g (Except the one guy who forces 5CC every time but we'll get to him)

If it was me, I'd leave one. Maybe another city of brass :p
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Eric Chan said:
WHY WOULD YOU DO SUCH A THING WHYYY

That might be a good line in the sand to draw, though. All fixers in the main cube, all utility lands in the utility land pile. Would there still be enough functional lands to justify four picks apiece this way? And could you just slot the manlands into your main cube, in addition to your existing fixing?
Click to expand...

I just wanted to test it. People actually complained about us not doing the utility land draft though.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
the nice thing about inertia is that it works for good ideas too!

why not include the WWK manlands in the main? they're just so good, everyone wants them -- they're worth a pick, as they never go begging

how many fixing lands are you running in the main? i've topped out at 71/405

i think a little fixing in the utility land draft is good (for the reasons above) but how much is too much is a good question. i was thinking about assembling an offbeat cycle for enemy-colored stuff but theres not enough weird stuff

what do yall think of this (legacy-playable!!!) bad boy DAKMOR SALVAGE
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Well, to be honest I don't really want to jam another entire cycle into the main. I am at 42 fixers of 360, and it feels fine. It's mostly a space issue. I would rather include more diverse spells (that sometimes make it, sometimes don't) than cut them for extra lands.

I have the vague notion that something around 5 fixers in the utility land draft is ideal, but running a half-cycle (e.g. only allied colors) is a little nonsensical.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Jason Waddell said:
Well, to be honest I don't really want to jam another entire cycle into the main. I am at 42 fixers of 360, and it feels fine. It's mostly a space issue. I would rather include more diverse spells (that sometimes make it, sometimes don't) than cut them for extra lands.

I have the vague notion that something around 5 fixers in the utility land draft is ideal, but running a half-cycle (e.g. only allied colors) is a little nonsensical.
Click to expand...

I could always put only 5-color fixers in the utility draft (~ 5 of them), then push a few of the better lands (Colonnade, Tar Pit, GW Future Sight leafy card I can't think of the name of) to the main.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
you could do EVE filters or something -- enemy-color fixing loves help. i'm actually certain that vivids are the wrong direction to take. control decks already have ludicrously good mana. the cycle must come into play untapped

i've been a proponent of fixing as a means of effectively lowering curves and increasing the number of available cards, but maybe i can cut some fat. yet 42/360 seems so low to enable a 4c deck. you might be onto something.

tentative plan:
main cube: cut EVE filters, AP lands, SOM fast-lands, ALA shard-lands, graven cairns, grove of the burnwillows; add 10 fetches (down to 54 lands)
utility lands: cut vivids, add EVE filters (or AP lands) in their place. get rid of one of the dumber B lands and replace it with Dakmor Salvage

20 fetches with 10 shocks and 10 duals isnt too many, is it?

EDIT: the 5c fixers are so powerful though. (3 of them: City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Reflecting Pool ...) they are aggro-oriented but they're also gonna be fought over to the point where i think its better to make someone use a regular draft pick on them
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Well my current Utility Land Assortment of fixers is:


Celestial Colonnade
Creeping Tar Pit
Lavaclaw Reaches
Raging Ravine
Horizon Canopy
Cascade Bluffs
Rugged Prairie
Fetid Heath
Twilight Mire
Flooded Grove


I run 20 fetches with 10 shocks and 10 duals in 360 and it works wonderfully. I really don't know if I'll ever take them out.

There are also weaker 5C fixers like Grand Coliseum.

You'll notice when you swap to 20 fetchlands that often your aggro decks have much better mana than your control decks.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
right, i remember those fixers from the article. i still think you should consider the man-lands in the main cube. they're modern staples (well, minus reaches)

i didn't consider grand coliseum and undiscovered paradise because i think they're too bad (though the latter, with landfall theme ... similar to how sam black had perpetual bloodghasts off a single land in legacy -- could be cool?) and the other 5c lands (even modern staple glimmervoid and sometime legacy 1-of tarnished citadel!) just aren't good enough...

i'm surprised that (even with this pretty big adjustment) mana swings so heavily in favor of aggro, maybe i'll keep the EVE lands in and move the SOM lands to the util draft. or does control mana need help (so that vivids and friends become a good choice)? control needing a bit of a boost mana-wise seems like a good place for cube to be

edit: i just got housed by cradle in legacy GOD THAT CARD IS GONNA BE EVERYWHERE IN A MONTH AND A HALF.
 
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