Card/Deck Control Cards that other decks will play

[Suicufnoc]

Or Aggro/Midrange cards that control decks also want.

It seems aggro is dominating a bit in my cube. I think this probably came because I accidentally cut a bunch of cards that only get run in control decks or something. This is my first brainstorming step to fix the problem without just throwing in more Wraths. (which I may still do)


Any other thoughts/suggestions/criticisms welcome. Note that my cube list isn't up to date but still probably shows most of my shortcoming in cube design.

 

[japahn]

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

 

[Chris Taylor]

Rolling Earthquake is a big one. The difference between earthquake and it is huge, and a sweeper that also kills opposing planeswalkers is also huge. Being controllable makes it nice for midrange decks where you can leave room for your (bigger) creatures to fight in the aggro matchup, fireball an opponent out, or just wipe the field if necessary.

Restoration Angel is another one people probably know. Ambushes attackers and saves creatures from removal just as well, and also re-buys ETB triggers
Vendillion Clique is also sweet for many of the same reasons

Ray of Command and other instant speed threatens (Blind with Anger, and There's one with split second I can't remember the name of) are great for getting a last attack in or borrowing an opponents attacker for a quick 2-for-1.

Profane Command gains a bit from being in a midrange deck so you can take advantage of the X creatures gain fear mode, on top of it's already solid removal spell type modes

Also basically any planeswalker or target-wide removal spell (Oblivion Ring, Most burn spells, etc)

 

[vennythekid]

Cheap, flexible removal is sought after by most decks:


Flexible modal spells can are cheap enough to take an offensive or defensive role


Defensive Cards that fill roles in other (mostly midrange) decks:


Cards that can buy time for control decks that can also push tempo advantages:


Cards that are powerful early but scale better into the late game

 

[Suicufnoc]

Well the good news (I guess) is that I'm running most of the cards listed so far. I think I'll add rolling earthquake, though. Maybe I'll try the wildfire package again

I wonder if any of them are good choices for doubling up

 

[Lucre]

We should be asking more about control cards that arent too slow or embarassing that other decks wont get to pick before you. Like besides expensive wraths and careful consideration and potentially 6+ drops what can you really count on not being scooped up by players willing to be more open because there will always be 2/1s for 1 for the deck that wants them etc. Like your remands stp and planeswalkers dont stick around.

Please please please cube more aggro and midranged cards a control deck would be the least bit interested in, you make it hard enough for those decks as is guys honestly.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Looking over your list you don't seem to have many ways to reward reactive gameplay. Card advantage discard in black, raw card draw in blue and black, and more sweepers in white, black, and red would be nice.

I think your basic problem is that you cut control from the cube.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Looking over your list you don't seem to have many ways to reward reactive gameplay. Card advantage discard in black, raw card draw in blue and black, and more sweepers in white, black, and red would be nice.

Aha! I'll look into this.

We should be asking more about control cards that arent too slow or embarassing that other decks wont get to pick before you. Like besides expensive wraths and careful consideration and potentially 6+ drops what can you really count on not being scooped up by players willing to be more open because there will always be 2/1s for 1 for the deck that wants them etc. Like your remands stp and planeswalkers dont stick around.

Please please please cube more aggro and midranged cards a control deck would be the least bit interested in, you make it hard enough for those decks as is guys honestly.

Good point. We need some 1 drops that aggro and control both like. Like Grim Lavamancer. Maybe I should double up on that.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Its also worth mentioning that the more a format is about low cost, high quality cards and spell velocity, the harder it is going to be to sell people on mana intensive reactive control cards.

 

[safra]

Its also worth mentioning that the more a format is about low cost, high quality cards and spell velocity, the harder it is going to be to sell people on mana intensive reactive control cards.

well uh that's why you cube really cool ones




People forget about the lifegain you get from walls, imo. A few other cheap cards ""for"" control:

 

[CML]

You know, I find some of these card-draw spells are often just better in rampy / mid-range decks that already have a board presence

The majority of the Safra list is pretty hardcore control (before the jump)

I mainly made this post because I want to discuss Rolling Earthquake, though, and red sweepers in general. I kind of have a lot and I wonder if that in conjunction with my fat 495-card list is screwing with the balance.

So here are some Red sweepers I've got in my Cube.



has anyone ever gotten Pyromancer's Goggles to work?

 

[Lucre]

I'm so suspicious of people who cube blasphemous act. Honestly.

Like I'm expected to have creatures around when I cast it, but my opponent has also got to have better ones than me or its a total waste and nothing I have is gonna survive this because you try regenerating after a thing like that or having a 14 toughness guy (I know you jerks dont cube protection dont ever try me). On top of that we are describing a card that is both a panic button and a card with high set up cost that can be easily played around or pre-disrupted?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

@ safra: I meant more that players have to have time to cast those spells. If the format is structured in a way where executing a control game plan means you are constantly falling behind, it won't be viable in that meta without more significant changes.

Not taking a jab at your format, just clarifying my earlier comment. If you look at the linked list it looks very fast, and I would expect any successful control deck to need to be pretty efficent to keep pace with the format, which should inform card choices. For example, painful truths might be too slow, and nights whisper a better fit--don't know, but its something that should be kept in mind.

 

[Quirk]

Another thing that tips the balance a little is running removal that is more useful to control than aggro - e.g. Condemn and Oust.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Another thing that tips the balance a little is running removal that is more useful to control than aggro - e.g. Condemn and Oust.

This I find pretty interesting, because it gets mentioned and I agree but I also haven't seen people mention much more than condemn and oust. What are some other aggro unfriendly removal?

 

[Dom Harvey]

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Wouldn't Gideons reproach and wing shards (and azorious charm) be a nice little package for white answer cards that are just clunky enough as a proactive player for them to wheel to the (reactive) control player?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'm so suspicious of people who cube blasphemous act. Honestly.

Like I'm expected to have creatures around when I cast it, but my opponent has also got to have better ones than me or its a total waste and nothing I have is gonna survive this because you try regenerating after a thing like that or having a 14 toughness guy (I know you jerks dont cube protection dont ever try me). On top of that we are describing a card that is both a panic button and a card with high set up cost that can be easily played around or pre-disrupted?

I quite like it actually. It's a red Wrath effect that kills basically everything, no questions asked, and yes, you pay a bit more for that than you pay for Pyroclasm. It often kills 3 or 4 dudes on the opponent's side of the table, and 1 or 2 on your side, and you get to play around it by sandbagging the real threat. And then there is the interaction with Spitemare and Boros Reckoner, which is just a funny little combo.

 

[Jason Waddell]

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Gideon's reproach and condemn seem ok, the rest just look like awkward bad removal that will put the control deck in a bad spot if they can't clog the ground with early blockers in a fast meta.

Blas. act is a fun card, but really awkward; it always felt like a Timmy card for Spikes.

 

[blacksmithy]

I'm trying the low-curve control experiment myself, forcing Ux control every time we draft in a cube with an acerage CMC of, like, 2. Some things i've found:
-blue 1/3s for 2 are like the best T2 play you can make outside Perilous Myr. PM is a frickin house and we should all consider breaking singleton.
-most things that are part of a trinket mage package are super funin Ux control.
-Silent Departure and basically any flashbackable removal is pretty swell.
-Cyclonic Rift (or Upheaval if youre one of the few RT people willing to run it) is actually your wincon in a good deal of games.
-5 mana is where you typically want to either drop a finisher or hold up something ridiculous like black confluence or silumgars command

 

[CML]

yeah but is lucas right that this + boros reckoner is just not enough justification?

would we be running (some of) these cards anyway?

 

[japahn]

I prefer Spitemare to Boros Reckoner, it can be played in way more decks (a true hybrid card, triple hybrid means gold in limited) and it's still a good impact card for 4 mana.

The targeted damage reflection ability is crazy good by itself, and synergizes well with other red board wipes, especially Whipflare and Pyroclasm.

I haven't tried Blasphemous Act yet, though I believe it would be a fun card to use, although bad in control matchups.

 

[blacksmithy]

I think Soulfire and Reckoner/Mare are good enough on their own. Act is kinda marginal but gets better with both the amount of wide aggro and the amount of red control support in your Cube. I run it with no regrets.