General Custom Cards: The Lab

So it's not the fact that it's new tech (like I said). Or necessarily that it would replace/change how artists would make money. It's the combination of replacing an artist in the generation of works with the fact that their art needs to be directly used to do so. In classic copyright law this would be a cut and dry derivative-work ruling, and the artist would be due royalties for the use of their work in deriving, allowing that new piece to exist, and the value of the previous work made by the artist to be realized. The potential shortcutting of that process is the heart of the issue.
 
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So it's not the fact that it's new tech (like I said). Or necessarily that it would replace/change how artists would make money. It's the combination of replacing an artist in the generation of works with the fact that their art needs to be directly used to do so. In classic copyright law this would be a cut and dry derivative-work ruling, and the artist would be due royalties for the use of their work in deriving, allowing that new piece to exist, and the value of the previous work made by the artist to be realized. The potential shortcutting of that process is the heart of the issue.
I am exactly in the opposite camp. When one follows your argument you have not only to pay the artist, but the artist in turn has to pay everyone who taught him/her/it. Similarly, mobile phone technology/WiFi/and so on is based on mathematics. Do you pay the ones who made the math to make it possible? Or when you use a wheel, do you pay the ones who invented the wheel?

Please point to me the difference of a kid painting straight lines and a Mondriaan.
I loathe any copyright/patent law. The knowhow is at the artist/maker. If a copy is as good as the original, then the value of the two should be the same.

Similarly, there are very good fakes of magic cards. I understand it is illegal, but the question is should they be illegal? Why is the question not: why is a piece of cardboard so valuable and is that rightfully so or did we humans just made our life difficult (or did others make our life difficult)?
 
The fundamental problem is that the current tools are using copyrighted works, down to the entire database of magic cards, without the permission of their authors. It's no different from slamping, only on a larger scale. And it's clear the owners of these platforms know this because they have purporsefully avoided upsetting Disney and Sony Music.

In Frace, this type of works are given the label of "composite". And, to me, that's a perfect description. Why do these programs draw women in the style of fetish porn? Because they are composite pictures of fetish porn. And if derivative works include trivia books and greeting cards, it's hard not to argue that "AI Art" isn't a copyright violation. In fact, simply allowing you to input the name of an artist ought to be considered a violation of trademark. More broadly, you just cannot just take someone's data and use it without permission of its owner

I think tech companies will get away with it, just like they get away with not paying taxes, subverting elections and controlling your location at all times. If they could flood the market with illegal taxis and call their employees "contractors", of course they'll be able to take artists's work without credit nor payment.
Please point to me the difference of a kid painting straight lines and a Mondriaan.
If you cannot tell these two apart, perhaps you are not ready to have a debate on art or copyright law.
 
Yeah I'm talking about copyright law. A clearly defined set of rules, not your general ideas about payment for services in all aspects of life. And in most cases, there is payment there anyways:
artist in turn has to pay everyone who taught him/her/it.
They do. They pay for art school.
Do you pay the ones who made the math to make it possible?
They were. They are called software engineers, mechanical engineers, mathematicians.
Or when you use a wheel, do you pay the ones who invented the wheel?
I probably paid for the wheel. Or if I made one, since the wheel as a concept is not copyrightable, I didn't pay royalties to anyone. That's a ridiculous notion; one that's not being discussed here.

There's a lot wrong with copyright law, and almost none of that wrong is in the hands of artists and other tradesfolk. For them its a critical protection to keep their art making them money. For Disney it's a vehicle to maintain control of a massive creative empire to use as a litigation engine and to keep tight hold on cultural and entertainment icons for profit. That's where the ire needs to be aimed. Like Disney has literally had the United Stated copyright laws changed expressly in the interest of keeping their IP under wraps for longer.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
There's a lot wrong with copyright law, and almost none of that wrong is in the hands of artists and other tradesfolk. For them its a critical protection to keep their art making them money. For Disney it's a vehicle to maintain control of a massive creative empire to use as a litigation engine and to keep tight hold on cultural and entertainment icons for profit. That's where the ire needs to be aimed. Like Disney has literally had the United Stated copyright laws changed expressly in the interest of keeping their IP under wraps for longer.
Copyright law does not protect medium, artistic style, or ideas, it only protects the finished work. As far as I know, it's perfectly acceptable for a human artist to create a piece in Mondriaan's exact distinctive style. As long as it's sufficiently different from Mondriaan's own work, it's considered an original work. Obviously you're not allowed to pass it off as an actual Mondriaan, nor can you copy his signature, those things are illegal. In general, when you copy a work, if you mention who inspired you, don't try to pass off your work as original, and are not trying to make money off of it, you're fine as far as copyright law is concerned. Similarly then, it should be completely legal for AI generated art to use copyrighted art to "learn" how to paint in certain styles, just as human artists use existing work to learn about composition, lighting, and painting styles all the time.

Two nice articles on the matter:
https://might-could.com/essays/inspiration-vs-imitation-how-to-copy-as-an-artist/
https://www.wildlifeartstore.com/can-you-copy-art/

PS. If you copy artists from the 19th century or earlier, you're safe anyway, as copyright expires less than a century after an artist's death (though how much of a century depends on which country the artist was from).
 
The fundamental problem is that the current tools are using copyrighted works, down to the entire database of magic cards, without the permission of their authors. It's no different from slamping, only on a larger scale. And it's clear the owners of these platforms know this because they have purporsefully avoided upsetting Disney and Sony Music.

In Frace, this type of works are given the label of "composite". And, to me, that's a perfect description. Why do these programs draw women in the style of fetish porn? Because they are composite pictures of fetish porn. And if derivative works include trivia books and greeting cards, it's hard not to argue that "AI Art" isn't a copyright violation. In fact, simply allowing you to input the name of an artist ought to be considered a violation of trademark. More broadly, you just cannot just take someone's data and use it without permission of its owner

I think tech companies will get away with it, just like they get away with not paying taxes, subverting elections and controlling your location at all times. If they could flood the market with illegal taxis and call their employees "contractors", of course they'll be able to take artists's work without credit nor payment.

If you cannot tell these two apart, perhaps you are not ready to have a debate on art or copyright law.
I knew I was going to get a lot of flack, which is fine.
First off, I do support artists. However, I am surprised by the blind following of rules without questioning whether these rules are good/consistent.

A programmer gets paid exactly once for the code written (unlike the company that patents the code). When another company hires someone to write code that has the same outcome it is okay, as long as it is not a copy of the code of the other company.

When one uses the paintings of someone to create a new one it is a no go but when one blatantly copies a wheel it is okay?
Come on, either both are okay or both not.
You cannot have it both ways. Since the rules are often made for the big companies I think we are much better of without these silly rules. Actually, patents often stifle progress as opposed to what they were intended to do.

Please explain to me why two indistinguishable paintings should have different values? Only because someone famous allegedly made it? They are indistinguishable and the conservators of those Mondriaans do not even know which side is up… Furthermore, after a while no one knows wether it is a copy, a real one, or made by someone who was inspired by Mondriaan, a kid who can draw straight lines.

AI has a problem of what it is being fed with thats what it spews out. It is highly racist and quickly becomes self enforcing.
 
In general, when you copy a work, if you mention who inspired you, don't try to pass off your work as original, and are not trying to make money off of it, you're fine as far as copyright law is concerned. Similarly then, it should be completely legal for AI generated art to use copyrighted art to "learn" how to paint in certain styles, just as human artists use existing work to learn about composition, lighting, and painting styles all the time.
A) depending on how they copy, it will be derivative, and will be subject to copyright.
B) Otherwise it's fair use or be distinct enough to not even some up as CR, which I've already discussed, and
C) the AI isn't "learning". The inputter is using the algorithms inside to generate derivatives directly from a collection of sources. There is no unique new artist in the process, just remixing of pixels from existing works. Even if it were learning in the self-aware sense of the word, the above points would still apply. Specifically in CR law, the terms Recast, Transformation, and Adaptation will likely be important when it comes time for lawyers to discuss this in the courtroom.

From US copyright law:
For an official legal definition of derivative works, the United States Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. Section 101 states: A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted.
 
And as always in law, intent and effect are ever-important. If the tool is for example non-profit and it's license prohibits direct use for commercial purposes, it would be harder to find it in violation of commercial protections. If someone needs a piece for a sold product, they still need to go to one of the artists the generator is taking inspiration from. Fair use is probably in play in that setting. The concern comes in if the intent would be supplanting artists from roles they would typically get commissioned for and/or have payment/royalties for from existing work (like the book cover artist example), made by using the body of work from those and other artists, and the effect is loss of income for that set of artists, the legality question gets amped way up. If that underlined part wasn't potentially involved, it would be much less of a question, but it is.

In anything we are doing here, making little spoof MTG cards for fun, I can only see fair use. It's not like you were going to go commission an MTG artist to work up new landscapes just for this. My ire is on the larger implications.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
just remixing of pixels from existing works
I think this is an extreme oversimplification of what the AI is actually doing. You can't say pixel A is coming from a work by Dali, and pixel B is coming from a work by Mondriaan. Just as with human art efforts, the end result is greater than the sum of its parts. In that sense, if you rule that all AI art is recast, transformed, or adapted art, all art (AI or human) is recast, transformed, or adapted. In the end, all human artists learn to make art primarily by imitating art, then using all that they've seen as inspiration for creating original work. So too, can AI use the body of work it has learned as "inspiration" for the art it creates. Maybe our difference in opinion stems from what value we attribute to human work vs. AI work, but that AI has been built by human hands as well, and in the end is also a human achievement.

PS. While a neural network does not learn in the same way a typical human learns, it does actually learn.
 
Yeah my view has the livelihoods of the artists in mind. Not saying you don't, but at the end of the day, it's that effect bit.

At the end of the day, the AI can't be made homeless. The human can. And with the perverse reality that their work was part of the input into the "learning" algorithm that replaced them. That's where the law needs to catch up and where my concern is. It has nothing to do with how much I "value" AI. It has everything to do with the fact that an AI Art Generator doesn't need to eat, and can prevent someone from eating by using the art they were creating to make money to eat.
 
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Like, at a very basic level, it's just common knowledge that you credit a traditional artist when using their work. Almost everyone in this thread does that consistently already. This is one of the foundations of how artists get traffic to their work. Why doesn't MidJourney have to at least credit the works it used in generation? Or the top ten most-utilized works in that particular blend, like some sort of Artify Wrapped. Something.

Like IDK, have a list of every artist and their works that has been used as an input in a searchable database. And I did check their website to see if this was something already happening, but didn't find anything. A link on any generated work to a pre-filtered search in the database of artists of similar styling. something.

That's the sort of thing where it can be used as a tool for good. Like driving visibility for artists that might not otherwise have it when people check out those lists. But where is anything like that? Not finding it.

And one of the issues, I'm guessing, is there has been no actual inbound accountability. MidJourney literally doesn't know what artists it's using. I don't know the methods it's using for sourcing inputs, but I'd hazard a guess it's some sort of automated scraping system and/or user submissions that may not require mentioning source.
 
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Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yeah my view has the livelihoods of the artists in mind. Not saying you don't, but at the end of the day, it's that effect bit.

At the end of the day, the AI can't be made homeless. The human can. And with the perverse reality that their work was part of the input into the "learning" algorithm that replaced them. That's where the law needs to catch up and where my concern is. It has nothing to do with how much I "value" AI. It has everything to do with the fact that an AI Art Generator doesn't need to eat, and can prevent someone from eating by using the art they were using to make money to eat.
I feel you, but this is also why for me it boils down to technology making jobs obsolete. You put much weight on human work being part of the input into the learning algorithm, but that is no different from what real human artists do. Every piece of art is inspired by the work of previous artists, all art is derivative. I don't mean that in a bad way, taking inspiration from others is great, but both humans and AI's rely on existing work to produce original work in some way or form.
Like, at a very basic level, it's just common knowledge that you credit a traditional artist when using their work. Almost everyone in this thread does that consistently already. This is one of the foundations of how artists get traffic to their work. Why doesn't MidJourney have to at least credit the works it used in generation? Or the top ten most-utilized works in that particular blend, like some sort of Artify Wrapped. Something.
MidJourney puts in the full search string along every image it generates! For example.

MidJourney attribution.jpg

The full prompt (which you can see in full screen, but that would make for a weirdly wide screenshot) is: "a delicate and delicious looking dish of entire solar system in styles of Beksinski and Giger and Alphonso Mucha, translucent and iridescent, professional photography, extreme details, intricate lighting,"

So, in case a particular artist was used as inspiration, the prompt directly credits the artist, and passing off the art as original would potentially be copyright infringement (depending on intent and effect of course, as you rightly noted). If you don't use a particular artist in your prompt though, there also isn't any particular artist whose art style the AI is using as inspiration. Rather it's a amalgamation of all the artworks the AI learned about. Again, exactly how it works with human artist.
 
When one uses the paintings of someone to create a new one it is a no go but when one blatantly copies a wheel it is okay?
If you can't understand why the wheel is not subject to copyright, you are not ready to debate this subject. Inform yourself first.

In general, when you copy a work, if you mention who inspired you, don't try to pass off your work as original, and are not trying to make money off of it, you're fine as far as copyright law is concerned.
That's not true. If I go and make a webcomic using Disney characters, that's a breach of copyright no matter if I do it for free or I don't pass them as my own.

At the end of the day, the AI can't be made homeless. The human can.
While it doesn't affect the morality (or legality) of AI Art, it's hard not to notice how the whole conversation is drenched in an ugly contempt about artists. Many of the people I see online take a sadistic glee at being able to put down people who draw or have any other skill. It's not that they care about the technology, or the quality of art itself, it's the idea of punishing those they are jealous of. After all, a good chunk of Cryptobros already hated artists for being opposed to NFTs and they see this as their revenge.

This is why we see so many people harrassing artists by copying their art or feeding it to the engines. It's a form of revenge, a way of destroying them. Before, you could only send them a nasty image or try tyo cheat them out of a comission. But now you can try to destroy their work or even tarnish their reputation. It's a way to bring down the "successful", not unlike how people cheered when Uber was going to drive out those uppity taxi drivers out of bussiness. They didn't care if it was wrong, if it was illegal or it was worse in the long run. What matters is making the others suffer. You'll do okay. After all, aren't we all temporarilty embarrassed millonaries?
 
Every piece of art is inspired by the work of previous artists, all art is derivative. I don't mean that in a bad way, taking inspiration from others is great, but both humans and AI's rely on existing work to produce original work in some way or form.
I agree with the overall sentiment of the post, just don't mix legally derivative and inspirationally, educationally, or observationally derivative. Like yes, all art that uses paint and brushes is "derived" from the original humans that invented that technology thousands of years ago, but it would have nothing to do with legally derivative. Very dangerous equivalent to try to draw, and where a lot of people lose the thread in legal discussions. Yes, I can only (crudely) paint a leaf because I've seen one before. Nothing to do with me infringing on the trees copyright.

So, in case a particular artist was used as inspiration, the prompt directly credits the artist, and passing off the art as original would potentially be copyright infringement (depending on intent and effect of course, as you rightly noted). If you don't use a particular artist in your prompt though, there also isn't any particular artist whose art style the AI is using as inspiration. Rather it's a amalgamation of all the artworks the AI learned about. Again, exactly how it works with human artist.
That's good, but I need specifics. Even if no artist is used in a prompt, if you for example use "Hudson River School", it may tend to focus on the cadre of artists painting in and around New York circa the 1800s; in a relatively ethereal, bombastic, grandiose style with oils. The AI should be able to relay that the most utilized portions of it's learning came from that school of artists, as any human painting in the Hudson River style would instantly be able to, along with rattling off an array of their favorite artists from the school. Even something very vague like "impressionist". The AI should/needs to be designed to be able to relay a specific set of sourced artists in it's catalog that it used in training that match to that keyword. Or "soup". Or "cats". It needs to have knowledge of what specific sources were used in training to understand every concept it knows. If the systems can't do that right now, they need to be upgraded to be able to, in my opinion.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
That's good, but I need specifics. Even if no artist is used in a prompt, if you for example use "Hudson River School", it may tend to focus on the cadre of artists painting in and around New York circa the 1800s; in a relatively ethereal, bombastic, grandiose style with oils. The AI should be able to relay that the most utilized portions of it's learning came from that school of artists, as any human painting in the Hudson River style would instantly be able to, along with rattling off an array of their favorite artists from the school.
I would love for that to be a thing, but it is holding the AI to a higher standard of attribution than human artists. Yes, the artist can (likely) rattle of their favorite painters, but when presenting a painting inspired by that school, they will not name every painter individually, they will also just say "in the style of the Hudson River School". However, for educational purposes, this would be a great addition.
Even something very vague like "impressionist". The AI should/needs to be designed to be able to relay a specific set of sourced artists in it's catalog that it used in training that match to that keyword. Or "soup". Or "cats". It needs to have knowledge of what specific sources were used in training to understand every concept it knows. If the systems can't do that right now, they need to be upgraded to be able to, in my opinion.
I don't think many (or any) humans can do what you ask of the AI here. Naming every sourced artist in a work? How do you even determine that? Again, though, I think it would be great if the AI sourced you some "similar artists" / "artists you might want to check out based on this artwork".
I also want to note one thing. Art, the kind that has worth, doesn't come from endlessly reclying older ideas or overplayed inspiration. It comes from observation; observation of the real world we all live in. We all lose when a chunk of our world becomes a miasma of recycled ideas.
I agree. When I say all art is derivative, I don't mean all art is recycled, I mean all art is inspired by art that came before. (Neither do I mean all art is legally derivative, by the way.) I do think highly of artists, and I don't believe AI can replace true creativity and artsmanship. I actually commissioned artwork for a D&D character while already having a MidJourney membership. Still, being able to create these amazing landscape paintings with MidJourney is a thrill and a boon to me.
 
Sorry, but how is a painting (an object) different than a wheel (an object)? Similarly, with performing arts. Why should we put ballet higher than a videogame? And from the videogame to a book, and from a book to a beautifully made children pushcart?

How much I appreciate art, I sincerely object by giving it a higher level than anything else. Art is special, but so is everything else. Beauty is everywhere.
What I agree on is that artists, just like the bust boy, or let’s face it most people, are and have been receiving the short end of the stick.

Also, often humans improve upon previous work and adapt things. That is what AI is likely not capable of.

Finally, that something is derivative should be the point. Whether someone got enough power to make their work legally protected does not change the fact that almost everything is derivative. Just some parts are protected for a weird reason and others not.
 
I don't think many (or any) humans can do what you ask of the AI here.
Humans must do this. If they are using works in a way that is legally derivative, EVERY source used in such a way must be listed/paid/licensed with/etc. And it should be far, far, far, far easier for an AI to do this effortlessly. It's already linking keywords to certain functions internally, with each added piece that is keyworded a certain way reinforcing certain functions. Also map to the source for that piece with that keyword used in that training. The AI generation would then in parallel generate art and a map of sources in lock step. This would almost perfectly lend itself to a source heat map, or one of those word clouds, but with [artist name/piece of art]. The exact aesthetic of the output isn't important.

One key difference is many humans use far fewer sources in a derivative way (and the legal status of how AI does it is up in the air). A MTG card doesn't have art from 1000 artists crammed into it, so it's relatively easy to credit the one single one on the physical card bottom.
 
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A clearly defined set of rules

As someone who works in a copyright-adjacent field... calling intellectual property laws "clearly defined" is a bit of a stretch, since (at least in the US) the actual intent behind the law has been folded, spindled, and mutilated over time. The subject of AI art also falls into pretty weird territory here, since it's a case that the people who drafted the laws in the first place very much didn't consider.

To go into a bit of theory for a second, let me trot out the WEMI model. Basically, any piece of media has four levels of abstraction:

  • The Work is the most abstract level — this is the intangible "idea" of, say, Dracula.
  • Once you have a Work, you or someone else can produce an Expression of it. This would be, say, a particular adaptation or translation of Dracula.
  • Once you have an Expression, you also have Manifestations of it. This would be a particular print run of the French translation of Dracula.
  • Individual instances of a Manifestation are referred to as Items.

The idea behind copyright is that the only part of this process that can actually be directly monetized is the sale of individual items (since none of the other levels are actually something physical) and that every level takes time and effort to produce. To avoid a situation where an artist/author would have to produce all four levels by themselves before seeing any money, we ended up with a system where you can offer someone else the privilege of being able to produce a manifestation or expression of your work in exchange for a cut of their profits.

Copyright laws basically just protect that entire ladder, with three added quirks — we have the public domain, where ownership of a given work defaults to the public after a certain period that serves as a combination "take your time producing nice art" and "here's your retirement fund", and fair use exceptions, because the dividing line between a novel work and an expression of an existing work is way fuzzier than you might assume, and we needed to nail that down for legal purposes. Finally, you are allowed to, just like any contract, define the terms of the agreement when you offer people privileges any way you want, as long as the end results are legal (since a contract that contractually binds you to do something illegal is not actually contractually binding). This has led to the current system of "work-for-hire" (where you produce a work and then sell the right to produce expressions for a single flat sum instead of licensing it for a gradual payoff) becoming quite popular (read: corporations realized that they stood to gain more money that way, and their lawyers are better than your lawyers).

It's actually fairly simple in intent (though it can get rather complicated once you get to works produced by multiple people). A few issues have arisen since the original laws were drafted, however:

  • While corporations can't actually hold ownership of a work, they can hold exclusive rights to produce expressions of that work. This has resulted in Disney continually lobbying for copyright extension up until a few years ago, since that meant that they held the copyright for Mickey (the ability to produce copies of old Mickey Mouse comics and films) and a trademark on Mickey (the right to use Mickey Mouse as part of their branding and corporate identity — this is arguably the actual reason they'd be suing you for using Mickey Mouse in your web comic). This was not an intended use-case of copyright, and has basically turned it from a way for starving artists to feed themselves to a way to fill rich people's pockets.
  • Digital media completely upends the economic structure copyright is built on, since it means that the manifestation stage goes from being one of the most expensive steps (since you need to set up the factory to produce the stuff, and then need to pay to produce each item) to being the cheapest (since copying a piece of digital information is, for all intents and purposes, free). This is why we've seen a resurgence in commissions and patronage (where you're paying the artist directly for an expression of their work), and why software companies bend over backwards to give you licenses to use their products instead of selling you something (since, legally, you can make duplicates of items you actually own...)
  • Procedurally generated content (of which AI art is a specific instance) is something that feels like it should be a violation of copyright, but isn't actually a violation of copyright... because it raises questions of who/what can produce works.

Actually, let me break out of the list format to address that more fully. The reason why AI art doesn't inherently violate copyright is because, as far as I can tell, the real debate is over whether or not an AI (a non-sapient process) can produce a novel work, or if the results of such a process must be expressions of an existing work, however mutilated (aka exactly what fair use laws were designed to cover). What adds to the trickiness here is that the software producing these pieces are actually black boxes — you can't actually open up GPT-3 to see how it ticks, since it's all a collection of weighted nodes on a graph measuring patterns.

I actually don't really have a concrete stance on whether or not I approve of or hate procgen art. I do think that it's conceptually thorny territory, since it raises the possibility of having works that, legally speaking, came out of nowhere, and that you can use it to violate copyright if you do so with intent... but I don't think that it has to be used that way.

...

The hilarious thing about the attribution argument, by the way, is that you really can't do anything better than "we trained our AI on this collection of information" — the only information the AI actually has available to it when you make your request is a set of probabilities. It'd be like feeding a Markov chain the works of Shakespeare, making it produce a sonnet, and then expecting it to have attribution information for which sonnets it pulled imagery from.

Oh, yeah, and it's also really funny to me that people get super passionate about this topic when it comes to pretty pictures, but consider it a novelty when applied to written works (because boy howdy is language hard), a selling point when applied to level designs (given the popularity of roguelikes and roguelites), and bitch about computers taking over a completely different part of the process for music (where most of the grumbling has to do with artificial enhancements of an expression of music (autotune and post-processing) rather than composition). Just goes to show how complicated this topic is, huh?

EDIT: If you're wondering how I know this... I went to library school for a graduate degree. While there is a specific exception in American copyright law to allow for the legal existence of libraries, we do need to know this shit, because people can and will ask us about it.

I'd prefer it if people didn't ask me to rattle off other "fun facts" about intellectual property law, though, since this post took me a couple hours and gave me a bit of a headache.
 
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Hats Off! {R}
Instant
Target a spell that targets one or more creatures. That spell gains "Whenever a creature targeted by this spell deals lethal damage to a permanent, it gets +2/+2 and gains Menace until end of turn."
 
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