General Custom Cards: The Lab

[anotak]

I think this does too much. Being able to cast this from your sideboard is, like, really, really, really strong, since it's essentially a free card. It kinda functions as a conspiracy card in a way, and we all know how busted the good ones are. (Not that they can't be fun, but still.) In addition you're getting at least 9 mana worth of effects by today's standards, not counting the casting from your sideboard ability. I'ld wager the card should cost more than that because being essentially a spell that doesn't cost a deck slot and doesn't rot in your hand.

I'ld be inclined to lower the impact by decreasing the effect to 2 of each. This would lower the net worth of the individual effects to somewhere between 5 and 6 mana, which means the desirable mana cost (to have that 2 in the cc as well) actually makes the spell more expensive than what you get out of the deal. In addition the spell becomes a lot less swingy, which is probably a good thing for a spell that doesn't take up a deck slot.

I do think the black effect is underwhelming and rather random and would probably change it to something different. Maybe -2/-2 to a creature, and then have the red effect deal 2 damage to a player or planeswalker? Discard two is a three mana effect, so that's probably too much.

i know it's absolutely absurdly strong, that was the intent. i don't think it's worth using the sideboard casting effect on something non-splashy and non-memorable though.

it's part of why i went with a 5c effect. i thought about making something even more deck specific but i also wanted it to be something people could easily remember, hence being based on the boon cycle from alpha.
which is also why it's got dark ritual on it, because that's the black boon. changing the numbers on the effects or changing away from dark ritual makes that no longer work.

but yea being able to cast it for 5 colors is the thing you have to draw and assemble, so in a way instead of being a free card, it is transforming all the lands in your deck into a free card if you draw certain combinations of them.

maybe the best choice might be . no matter what cost it would be, it'd require some serious testing to see how easy it is to cast in whatever environment it's in though.

i think the more interesting question than any of this is though: is it any fun at all?

there's issues with expectation, like being able to play it while your hand is empty can catch the other person off guard. i messed with requiring players to reveal it at the start of the game but i dont have a good way to word that that isn't hella verbose.

there's also just, the issue of taking away the surprise and randomness of drawing magic cards. i guess a lot depends on how easy it is to assemble 5 color lands in your environ

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Fair enough! The fun is in assembling the right lands. If you have lots of mana fixing, that should be a relatively mundane task though, and the reward for basically drafting the right mana fixing and constructing a good mana base is huge. I think this mechanic (casting cards from the sideboard) is maybe better reserved not for splashy effects, but for typical sideboard material that you would feel bad for mainboarding. Something like...

Naturalize from Beyond
Sorcery
You may cast ~ from your sideboard if you discard a green card in addition to paying ~'s mana cost.
Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

 

[Velrun]

I’m with Ondezeeboot. Casting stuff from Sideboard is sooo cool and something that is almost exclusive to custom cubes but they should also be somewhat ‘fair’ in order to not angry people with unfun surprises.

Healing Salve + Ancestral Recall + Dark Ritual + Lightning Bolt + Giant Growth is super cool but did it have to be exactly that effect for your ‘Play from sideboard’-card?

Very small effects like most conspiracies could perhaps be fine if:
1. The card is overcosted.
2. The card has low impact.
3. The card is fun.
4. The card doesn’t lead to unfair situations. (Surprises opponent in a way they could not prepare for in any way.)

 

[Tzenmoroth]

Interesting that someone else designed a card that could be played from outside your deck during a draft. I've been doing the same thing with my custom cube.

This is the direction I've gone with this mechanic. I want something that can give you reasonable value considering you didn't spend a card or a deck slot and is also slow enough that opponents aren't upset about being caught off guard by a card that came out of the shadow realm (and had protection from thoughtseize). I'm afraid something that wins too much on its own from outside your deck might be too much of a feel bad if there isn't enough time to deal with it.



I've also been trying to make sure its extra clear to players that the draft cards are weird so they notice cards that mess with the draft in some way.

 

[anotak]

so my reaction to using it on weaker effects is that it has a lot of the same problems as doing it on stronger effects, just it's got less potential fun. like, messing with the resource system of the game so much should do something really attractive and build-aroundy, and not just some small things. if you do something this weird, it should be a focal point, a build around. (i had envisioned the card i posted being the only one of its kind in a draft).
so if the experience upside isn't worth it at all on the stronger effects (which is very possible), then i think it just simply isn't worth doing at all.

i think despite the verbosity having the required reveal at the start of the game clause i described is definitely needed? i just don't know a good way to word it. which is another strike against the mechanic. tzenmoroth's wording is pretty elegant but opponents have a chance to forget by the time they get into a game. also revealing a more build-aroundy card during the draft would allow people to kind of hate it out more, which i'm not sure i like.

 

[sigh]

"if ~ didn't start the game in your deck, place it face up in exile. You may cast it from exile this game" ??? Something like this maybe?

 

[GalacticTraveler12]

Allowing a deck-defining payoff card to be constantly castable from your sideboard, is an insane amount of consistency. My concern is that that deckbuilding and play patterns would become very homogeneous whenever such a card is involved. When you have a deck hyper-focued on a certain card/strategy (such as birthing pod) the consequence usually is that when you don't draw into it, you're screwed. Build-arounds in the sideboard would take this exceedingly far in the other direction, leading to repetitive, inflexible decks.

On the other hand, more commonplace sideboard effects are less obnoxious but no less format-defining. Using the Divine Salvage example above, you have to consider how this consistency will shape your green archetypes. Over time, decks will be warped to take greatest advantage of this late-game, uninteractive recursion engine. They might cut other recursion effects because they now have constant access to one. They might prioritize self-mill higher because they now have a safety net. Any Evoke creature becomes an insane value engine late-game. You have to be very aware of what this will do to your metagame.

 

[Tzenmoroth]

To clarify, I intended for the card to be put into its owner's graveyard after resolving or being countered like spells being cast from weird places normally do.

 

[GalacticTraveler12]

Ohhh well that should make it much more fair. Still I think these kinds of effects should be kept a close eye on, as they can be fairly format-warping, not to mention fiddly. Personally I am a fan of sideboard tutors like Mastermind's Acquisition and other SB utility effects, as they open up new spins on decks. If castable-from-sideboard cards are able to do that, then I am all for it.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

So, would something like...

Reflexive Dismissal
Instant
Internalized (You may cast ~ from your sideboard if you exile a blue card from your hand in addition to paying its casting cost.)
Counter target spell. Draw a card.

... be worth it? Obviously the mana cost can be discussed, but I was wondering if internalized is an interesting way to go. It sort of turns every card of a matching color into a tutor. Adding the card draw adds some tension during a draft. Is it worth it to pay five mana for a counterspell that draws a card? Is that better than keeping it available in your sideboard, but know you are not going to get the 2 for 1 if you do that?

 

[Velrun]

If I'll ever put something like this in my cube I'll only put 1 card in there.
So no need for a keyword.

I have enough crazy, clumbsy stuff going on already

 

[Suicufnoc]

It's a 2 for 1 either way

 

[Velrun]

It's a 2 for 1 either way

Yep.

That card would 100 % of the times be cast from sideboard. There is no need to draw the card if any blue card is Reflexive Dismissal.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's a 2 for 1 either way

Huh... You're right. Maybe "If you cast ~ from your hand, draw a card" then. But by now where getting into pretty Arcane formulas, just to entice people to maybe maindeck a card with a "you can play this from your sideboard" mechanic. I'm starting to get convinced the only correct way to do this mechanic is not to make it splashy, but to make it so players don't have to pollute their maindeck with narrow answers.

 

[Tzenmoroth]

This mechanic is basically Hidden Agenda but instead of naming a card for it to work with beforehand, you have to pay mana. If it did something that only worked with another card like put +1/+1 counters on a creature or a copy an instant/sorcery you control, maybe its less of a problem since its not as much of a card on its own.

I like the idea of exiling a card of the same color as a cost. Maybe that's a way to make sideboard cards "maindeckable", but the power level might need to be reigned in. Like just Counterspell at or Naturalize at , since you're stapling bonus modes to already good cards in your deck.

 

[whydirt]

Here are some conspiracies I thought up to make certain themes less narrow. The templating isn't up to tournament-level quality, but I think you all get the gist.

Tribal Alliance
Conspiracy
Choose two different creature types. All of your creatures with one of those types also count as the other type.

Enchanted Artifice
Conspiracy
All of your artifacts also count as enchantments.

Forged Ether
Conspiracy
All of your enchantments also count as artifacts.

-----

The tribal one in particular would probably need some elaborate templating to handle all the zones, owning vs controlling, spells being cast vs being a permanent in play, but I'm fine with just using un-set style plain English and handle exceptions and rulings as they come up

 

[anotak]

i did something
obviously in such an environment one would have to be quite careful with regard to ETBs
also hey gotta be real careful that exile doesnt resemble the graveyard in any fashion

Guardian Spirit
Creature - Spirit Angel
Flash
Flying, Vigilance
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
4/4

Shapeless Apparition
Creature - Spirit
Flying
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
When Shapeless Apparition possesses a creature, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner’s hand.
2/1

Priest of the Ancestors
Creature - Human Cleric
As long as Priest of the Ancestors is possessed, Spirit creatures you control get +1/+1.
1/3

Spirit Oracle
Creature - Spirit
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Spirit Oracle is possessing a creature, scry 2.
1/5

Phantom Bear
Creature - Spirit Bear
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
When Phantom Bear possesses a creature, put +1/+1 counters on it equal to the possessed creature’s power.
2/2

Winged Echo
Creature - Spirit
Flying
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
If Winged Echo isn't possessing a creature, it doesn’t untap during your untap step.
4/4

Astral Traveler
Creature - Human Nomad
Whenever this card leaves exile, draw a card.
2/2

Abyssal Soul
Creature - Spirit
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Abyssal Soul is possessing a creature, each player sacrifices a creature.
4/5

Willing Servant
Creature - Human Cleric
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Willing Servant is possessed, target player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.
2/1

Burning Soul
Creature - Elemental Spirit
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
When Burning Soul possesses a creature, add to your mana pool.
2/1

Phantom Sapling
Creature - Spirit Treefolk
Possession (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Spirit creature you control until this card leaves the battlefield.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Phantom Sapling is possessing a creature, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
1/1

Astral Guide
Creature - Treefolk Nomad
Trample, Flash
Whenever Astral Guide or another creature you control enters the battlefield from exile, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.
3/4

Eternity Feeder
Creature - Elemental
First strike
Whenever a permanent you control is exiled, exile the top card of your library. You may play it this turn.
2/1

Coveter of Eternity
Creature - Human Shaman
Deathtouch
When Coveter of Eternity dies, return target Spirit card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
2/2


edit: fixed a missing p/t and two cards that had slightly wrong wording
edit 2: a creature had a wrong color mana cost

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Ok, I see what you're aiming for. It looks interesting to me, but be aware that this is a downside mechanic and WoTC themselves have admitted that those kinds of mechanic aren't well liked. Examples of the past include cumulative upkeep and echo, and those tend to score better with tournament players who can see that the upsides outweigh the downsides.

Secondly, the power and toughness is missing from some of the creatures.

Ok, that was my general notice. Now on to the mechanic! As I said, I like it, but the cards that do something when a permanent is exiled look very parasitic. I'ld suggest to include more removal spells that exile to mitigate this issue. Cards like...



(Green doesn't have a whole lot of options...)

In addition, you want to make sure that the baseline (i.e. what the card looks like when you don't possess a creature) should at least be playable. For the most part you have done this, but there are a few cards that look really underwhelming when you don't possess something or don't have a possessor in hand to exile it.

Thirdly, possession's flavor would be stronger if it could only exile another non-Sporit creature creature you control, but I don't know if the flavor is worth limiting the flexibility of the mechanic. Probably not, but I thought I'ld mention it anyway.

On to the individual cards (if I don't mention a card I think it's cool and doesn't need tweaking!)

Priest of Ancestors looks somewhat underwhelming. It can hold the fort a bit, but blue gets a 1/5 cannon fodder for the same cost (more on that in a moment). I'ld like to see something to juice up the base stats and diversify it from the blue card, maybe turn it into a Ghost Warden-like creature with the added "when possessed" clause instead?

Spirit Oracle's stat line looks off. The only blue 1/5 creature for in existence has a downside mechanic that costs you massive tempo (on turn 2 anyway). The 1/4 for doesn't even exist in all of Magic. The best defensive creature you can get without downside at that mana cost in existing Magic cards is a 1/3 or a 0/4. If you want to break the mold, you can, of course, but it's good to be aware that you're statting the card way above the curve. Also, aggro strategies will have a really hard time to break through this massive wall.

Phantom Bear feels like a green card to me, through and through, or maybe a white one. I have no clue why you put it in blue.

Astral Traveler looks sucky. At least let me have the card when it's exiled, not when it comes back. I would just never pick it as is, as an Eager Recruits isn't a desirable card, and the payoff is way too meager. Even with a draw a card on exile instead of returning, I wonder if the base stats are good enough for this card to see play.

Willing Servant looks a bit pushed. A 2/1 for that can block and doesn't etb tapped and has an upside that makers it relevant in the late game? Oof! Definitely something that WotC has never done before either, though in this case it's less obnoxious than the 1/5 for because it doesn't invalidate the opponent's game plan. That 4 point life swing already looks really powerful to me anyway. It might be a lot safer (though, granted) tamer as well) as a 1/1 menace with a 1 point life drain. It would also play better with auras and equipment this way (because of the menace), in case that's a thing in your cube.

Astral Guide, again, is overstated when compared to existing Magic cards. The only card with comparable stats is Simian Grunts, and that card has echo as a downside mechanic (and it was still really good in limited). Comparable cards without a downside mechanic cost as well, which is a significant less flexible cost than , and those card top out at 3/3 despite the more stringent color requirements.

Other than that, and assuming reasonable p/t to mana cost ratios for the missing p/t's, everything looks cool!

 

[anotak]

damn you caught it before all my edits to my accidental typos. phantom bear was definitely in green

regarding the downside mechanic aspect, yea, i do think that's potentially an issue. however, i think to some degree it's mitigated by the fact that the target audience of a cube draft is going to be quite a bit different than an arbitrary slice of potential magic players.

regarding being parasitic, yea, this is just the first glance at some of the ideas. i was thinking about including maybe Rebound cards and perhaps some riftsweeper type effects (dangerous: don't want to resemble graveyard too much). maybe a misthollow griffin?

Thirdly, possession's flavor would be stronger if it could only exile another non-Sporit creature creature you control, but I don't know if the flavor is worth limiting the flexibility of the mechanic. Probably not, but I thought I'ld mention it anyway.

i, that's what it does? or is the "another" aspect tripping you up? i wasn't going to put possession on any non-spirits, so the "another" is implicit. (nor have any spirits without possession) ... maybe this is a good place to use enchantment creatures... the different border might help

priest of ancestors probably needs some tweaks to be more attractive yea. i think the idea of it is a good potential draw for the mechanic maybe though? i was thinking about designing some cards that only interact with their possessor but i couldn't come up with good wordings

spirit oracle - drawbacks of moving quickly working on mechanics. i think i had this originally at 3 or 4 mana with some other mechanics and the p/t stayed

phantom bear -- it's green. just made a mistake with posting. i need to remake my thing for exporting from MSE for riptide lab forum posts that i lost in an HD crash and i can't find anywhere that i uploaded it to.

astral traveler - this needs tweaks and also more context. since this would trigger off any kind of un-exiling, i need other stuff to work with this. i have some thoughts floating around about some individual cards to work with it, but that's not a mechanic. one thing i was thinking about is suspend, except suspend is a horrible mess. so maybe if there's something like suspend, but less messy. as is, you'd almost entirely be playing this card for the draw

willing servant - i tend to just default to creatures not being 1/1 unless they do something quite absurd. the powerlevel here admittedly needs significant tweaking. however i've also just found in my experience that cubes, custom or otherwise, are pretty safe places to make above-what-wotc-will-print 2/1s for 1. the game can handle it just fine, and what will ruin constructed can be pretty safe here. you have to keep in mind that context of wotc's cards and how they fit into constructed or even the power level of regular drafts. auras probably wouldn't be a thing because of the antisynergy with possession but equipment might to a lesser extent. hmm. maybe smallbody menace is a way to go, i'll have to think. it doesn't feel like it fits as flavorfully though

astral guide - the power level here is just messed up bc i'm working quickly and trying to brainstorm concepts rather than raw numbers. i'm not liking the similarity in astral guide and astral traveler's name. also i'm not liking how guide's trigger does not work with impulsive draw

the power level stuff is hella subject to tweaking/change, that's less important than big picture stuff.

ty for the feedback!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Ha! I completely glossed over the fact that you already had it say non-Spirit! Ok, in that case I have to reverse the comment: for flavor reasons I love that possession says "non-Spirit", but it's probably good to test if the mechanic doesn't play better if you remove the non-Spirit clause, because it does limit the versatility of the mechanic. As is, you need both Spirits and non-Spirits in your deck, and you need to draw them in the right order, which can lead to feel bad moments when you draw three possessors but no cannon fodder. You would happily possess a Phantom Sapling from a gameplay perspective, even though it's kinda weird from a flavor point of view. I think in the end it's okay if gameplay trumps flavor in corner cases.

I would add "another" regardless of intent, simply because it's good form to prevent potential self-looping in a card. For example, Burning Soul + Conspiracy = infinite mana, you can easily prevent that by adding the "another" in there.

 

[Aston]

I think this is a really cool mechanic, with a lot of flexibility and design space, and it's very flavourful to boot. It gives spirits a mechanical identity that they were missing in the Innistrad blocks in a way that totally makes sense. I don't have much to comment on the specific card designs right now but I for sure think this is something worth exploring.

 

[anotak]

Ha! I completely glossed over the fact that you already had it say non-Spirit! Ok, in that case I have to reverse the comment: for flavor reasons I love that possession says "non-Spirit", but it's probably good to test if the mechanic doesn't play better if you remove the non-Spirit clause, because it does limit the versatility of the mechanic. As is, you need both Spirits and non-Spirits in your deck, and you need to draw them in the right order, which can lead to feel bad moments when you draw three possessors but no cannon fodder. You would happily possess a Phantom Sapling from a gameplay perspective, even though it's kinda weird from a flavor point of view. I think in the end it's okay if gameplay trumps flavor in corner cases.

I would add "another" regardless of intent, simply because it's good form to prevent potential self-looping in a card. For example, Burning Soul + Conspiracy = infinite mana, you can easily prevent that by adding the "another" in there.

well, i didn't want to have spirits causing extremely complex chains of ETB / LTBs in a row, just 1. i was actually motivated by gameplay reasons at first, and i had an awkward "can't possess another creature with possession" wording that i disliked.
as far as the "another", i was considering it as well. but then i remembered Restoration Angel's wording, and that solved a good bit, as I already had them all be Spirits.

i do also worry about needing both spirits and non-spirits, you can't really make a 'spirit only deck', so in a way they're kind of akin to auras or equipment. They just have a bad 'non-equip' alternative mode for emergencies.

as far as worrying about conspiracy, the beauty of designing for cube is that we don't even have to think about particular 2 card combos that won't exist in the cube being designed. i am aware of the danger, but it's entirely avoidable bc we have full control over the environment, and the saved words matters.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

That's a fair point you make there.

 

[Velrun]

These are nothing special. Just wanted to show you some close-to-duplicates Unexpected Potentials in case someone is interested in running several but have a non-duplicate policy.



Unforseen Invocation
Conspiracy - (U)
Hidden agenda (Start the game with this conspiracy face down in the command zone and secretly name a card. You may turn this conspiracy face up any time and reveal the chosen name.)
You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast non-creature spells with the chosen name.

Unanticipated Aid
Conspiracy - (U)
Hidden agenda (Start the game with this conspiracy face down in the command zone and secretly name a card. You may turn this conspiracy face up any time and reveal the chosen name.)
You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast creature spells with the chosen name.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Pretty