Eldrazi Domain Cube

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
The biggest point against Exploding Borders is that it is a gold card. The second issue is that I don't know if this is really the effect those sorts of decks are looking for. Damage to the player isn't that important to a ramp deck. It's mostly a really expensive rampant growth. If it could target creatures that'd be another thing.

Voices from the Void is fun, but also a little terrible? Like, I will play Evasive Action or Tribal Flames in a deck that only hits three basic land types. Would I do that with Voices? I don't know, maybe it's worth a test. It depends on the speed of the format. I'll put it on my list.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Alright, I need 160 more cards to complete this thing. I'll order about 140 now, proxy the 20 most expensive, and should be able to start testing soon.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I just realized I don't have this card in my list:
Image.ashx


It's also possible that with all the spawn tokens I should be running more sacrifice effects?
Image.ashx
Image.ashx


These seem pretty fun. Are there more cool sacrifice effects that are better suited for a lower power cube?
 
Man domain stuff and things that make players want to play a million colours are always so little fun for me to play with. Reminds me of so many bad draft formats and the frustrating aspects of good ones.

Maybe I've just got some grumpy old man set in his ways syndrome. Some of these seem pretty dorky. If that's the pace you want to set that's cool but it sorta reminds me of one of the things that was going on in the cube me and Chris were playing back around kamigawa. Maybe not the main aspect of it but one of the problems with lots of pet strategies and waaaaay too much focus on multicolor value and too few cards that feel aggressive without jumping through hoops.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Man domain stuff and things that make players want to play a million colours are always so little fun for me to play with. Reminds me of so many bad draft formats and the frustrating aspects of good ones.

Maybe I've just got some grumpy old man set in his ways syndrome. Some of these seem pretty dorky. If that's the pace you want to set that's cool but it sorta reminds me of one of the things that was going on in the cube me and Chris were playing back around kamigawa. Maybe not the main aspect of it but one of the problems with lots of pet strategies and waaaaay too much focus on multicolor value and too few cards that feel aggressive without jumping through hoops.

Well, I think a lot of it comes down to execution. Personally I have a lot of fun when I pull off a good 3-4 color aggro deck in my primary cube.

There's also a big pitfall of early cube designers of putting tons of gold cards in without supporting them with sufficient fixing. Also, many of the domain cards are perfectly effective with only three basic land types, which is pretty trivial to achieve with the mana base that I'm using. Evasive Action at 3 = Mana Leak, Tribal Flames at 3 = Searing Spear.

Granted, multicolor focused sets aren't for everyone, and mine is still very rough around the edges.

Can you elaborate when you say "some of these seem pretty dorky"? If there are specific red flags I'd love to hear them and be able to start thinking about them.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Admittedly lucas, that cube was about 250 cards and went nowhere near as deep :p
I don't remember too much from that cube, only that rob drafted the same 4 color wake deck every time and won with either decree of justice or goblin trenches.

Also [Nitpick]Tribal Flames at 3 = Volcanic Hammer[/Nitpick] :p
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Admittedly lucas, that cube was about 250 cards and went nowhere near as deep {R}
I don't remember too much from that cube, only that rob drafted the same 4 color wake deck every time and won with either decree of justice or goblin trenches.

Also [Nitpick]Tribal Flames at 3 = Volcanic Hammer[/Nitpick] {R}

Errr... yeah. Oops.
 
Jason I'll try to get look into it a little better when I'm not just on a coffeebreak on my phone.
I'll say now though that I prefer cubes where your third colour spash feels like a treat and that I very much like formats where 2 colour decks have really solid legs to stand on and there are punishing cards out there encouraging it.

Chris I think that was the original state of affairs but it kept rolling in that direction well into the Zachary Wrong stage of additions and then later when we had all sorta stopped playing constructed more or less but cubed still. Even though fixing became more scarce in the bigger pool we still had a lot of hoops to jump through with a lot of cards and the cubes average cost was top loaded enough that it was no hard task to get to your capsize lock or your paladin en vec worship combo going etc. the million colour decks still had time to do their million colour thing unless someone got lucky with RG or madness or someone made a better UB deck that trounced them.

I always get the feeling that drafting around cards that turn on with the 3rd colour or when they have their buddies around is going to be an awful lot like drafting the BW (or should i say BBWW) aggro deck in most cubes where no one has given it a compensatory nod for the colour commitment issues. Can you guys grasp the feeling I'm trying to describe or am I being too vague?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I always get the feeling that drafting around cards that turn on with the 3rd colour or when they have their buddies around is going to be an awful lot like drafting the BW (or should i say BBWW) aggro deck in most cubes where no one has given it a compensatory nod for the colour commitment issues. Can you guys grasp the feeling I'm trying to describe or am I being too vague?


I don't really know what you mean for this last part.

There are a couple other messages in your post. The first is something about a preference for formats that are focused on fewer colors. Perhaps this article is of interest to you:
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/channelfireball-learning-from-legacy-part-1.40/

There also appears to be some "guilt by association" stuff going on here. This design reminds you in some ways of another cube you played, in a format that was very slow and focused on big plays. The dynamic you describe there sounds very far from what this cube is trying to achieve. The curve is still rather low here.
 
Yeah I think I'm just talking to Chris about our dumb experiences in half that post. Banning worship and capsize for power reasons is a moment I giggle a little when I recall.

The way it reminded me of this stuff was that there were an awful lot of synergy cards and an obvious focus on value unlocked when you get extra colorful.

Really what I'm seeing here reminds me of drafting 3x fifth dawn or drafting invasion block the few times I got to.

You might be right though, this is probably just a preference thing.

I think my last paragraph is about how having a bunch of good cards you can't play on drop is similar to having a bunch of okay cards that are only good when you can turn them on and that being able to find and turn on cards suits some colours better than others. The black white having a hard time finding it's fixing on drop is a funny example of this, as with it's relative lack of draw fixing and enabler cards.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah I think I'm just talking to Chris about our dumb experiences in half that post. Banning worship and capsize for power reasons is a moment I giggle a little when I recall.

The way it reminded me of this stuff was that there were an awful lot of synergy cards and an obvious focus on value unlocked when you get extra colorful.

Really what I'm seeing here reminds me of drafting 3x fifth dawn or drafting invasion block the few times I got to.

You might be right though, this is probably just a preference thing.

I think my last paragraph is about how having a bunch of good cards you can't play on drop is similar to having a bunch of okay cards that are only good when you can turn them on and that being able to find and turn on cards suits some colours better than others. The black white having a hard time finding it's fixing on drop is a funny example of this, as with it's relative lack of draw fixing and enabler cards.


Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the feedback. I just want to be able to parse exactly what the comment is. For example, some people didn't like Innistrad because of preference. But so long as we're making Innistrad, we should make it as good as possible.

Regarding okay cards that can be "unlocked", are you looking at the ____blade creatures? The Domain cards?

Out of curiosity, provided you were forced to play/design/make a set with a multicolor focus, how would you make it better (for your own enjoyment) than the multicolor sets you have played in the past?
 
It's kinda funny because I really liked drafting RAV RAV GLD and RAV GLD DIS but I look back at those drafts now and realize those really fell apart when they didn't didn't come together and not too many formats will be able to resemble those ones.

Maybe it was the card advantage lands and the incredible availability of removal and solid midranged creatures that made that format feel right to me. I guess it was like playing a bad dragon cube with less of a forgiving level of card quality.

I think the cards I was referring to are all those you mentioned. It sorta reminds me of glorious anthem. Boy you hope you stuff around that makes this card good. You can draft around it too but is that a good idea? What is everyone else picking up right now? Cards that need to be turned on can also be morbid or sacrifice guys. Creature battling might be more common in limited but building around recursion and graveyard triggers often feels to me like it requires a lot of pieces to really get working, or to exist on cards that can stand on their own two feet without the graveyard trickery. I guess I'm probably just worrying for you.

I guess adding in these layers forces new depth into deck building and in game decision making in a pretty deliberate way so I can't fault you there. As I said, it's probably just preference that I don't like multicolor as much as a lot of people do. I trust you know how to make a format where getting your cards working for you in interesting ways is painless and getting them into overdrive is a matter of experience.

I do recommend going with the invoker method of unlock guys as opposed to the battlemage one. Make all the cards good on their own, and if you can turn them on you get something to be excited about, not cards that are embarrassing without their additional requirements met and are unforgiving about when you play them. I guess what is good enough is sorta a question of the bar you set within your cube, but I find most of us take to cubing to escape from clutches of grey ogres and the like.

When I see a card like eldrazi monument I wonder about if someone is shooting pretty low with their power level or if they are just really excited about a quirk of their format and think the card suits it.
 
Also I have to say I'm super impressed with the amiable tone and sorta discourse I'm seeing here on a number of threads. I think I might be bringing it down a bit with my phone paragraphs but you hardly see any arguments of authority, dismissive citations, raised hackles or anything on here. I keep feeling like I should be getting ready to defend myself but all I get is more stimulating discussion.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
It's kinda funny because I really liked drafting RAV RAV GLD and RAV GLD DIS but I look back at those drafts now and realize those really fell apart when they didn't didn't come together and not too many formats will be able to resemble those ones.

Maybe it was the card advantage lands and the incredible availability of removal and solid midranged creatures that made that format feel right to me. I guess it was like playing a bad dragon cube with less of a forgiving level of card quality.

I think the cards I was referring to are all those you mentioned. It sorta reminds me of glorious anthem. Boy you hope you stuff around that makes this card good. You can draft around it too but is that a good idea? What is everyone else picking up right now? Cards that need to be turned on can also be morbid or sacrifice guys. Creature battling might be more common in limited but building around recursion and graveyard triggers often feels to me like it requires a lot of pieces to really get working, or to exist on cards that can stand on their own two feet without the graveyard trickery. I guess I'm probably just worrying for you.

I guess adding in these layers forces new depth into deck building and in game decision making in a pretty deliberate way so I can't fault you there. As I said, it's probably just preference that I don't like multicolor as much as a lot of people do. I trust you know how to make a format where getting your cards working for you in interesting ways is painless and getting them into overdrive is a matter of experience.

I do recommend going with the invoker method of unlock guys as opposed to the battlemage one. Make all the cards good on their own, and if you can turn them on you get something to be excited about, not cards that are embarrassing without their additional requirements met and are unforgiving about when you play them. I guess what is good enough is sorta a question of the bar you set within your cube, but I find most of us take to cubing to escape from clutches of grey ogres and the like.

When I see a card like eldrazi monument I wonder about if someone is shooting pretty low with their power level or if they are just really excited about a quirk of their format and think the card suits it.


Well, there's certainly a spectrum with "synergy unlocks". My main cube has various cards like Furnace Celebration, Goblin Bombardment and even the aforementioned Eldrazi Monument, which are all really awful on their own. But they bring a lot to the environment, and the fact that there are so many synergies allows for players to creatively "unlock" them. I don't think the "all cards have to be good on their own" thing holds up. Again, it falls on execution.

Perhaps this is a relevant article:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-the-poison-principle/

That said, it can certainly be overdone. Environments need a certain density of just "good filler cards" to operate smoothly. What I've tried to do with a lot of the themes is to fill them in with cards we already need. I have some proliferate cards, and also the ____blade cards. Why not turn them both on with something like Rakdos Cackler? Even then, many environments really work well with a few "archetype anchors", cards that are pretty narrow but allow you to build a unique deck if you want. An example here is Horde of Notions. There are various elementals around all the colors, and this one card makes there be some incentive for a "five-color elemental" deck.

Note that at the same time the elementals themselves are doing work in turning on Morbid (via Evoke) and making tokens for Populate, and interacting with cards like Undying Evil.

There are probably a many duds in the file. Fleshformer comes to mind:
45.jpg


If I were going to bet, I'd say this card won't work out. But for now I'm testing it out.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Also I have to say I'm super impressed with the amiable tone and sorta discourse I'm seeing here on a number of threads. I think I might be bringing it down a bit with my phone paragraphs but you hardly see any arguments of authority, dismissive citations, raised hackles or anything on here. I keep feeling like I should be getting ready to defend myself but all I get is more stimulating discussion.


I like to think that this is an open place to discuss ideas. Heck, even having a devil's advocate around is extremely helpful, and we all learn a lot just by discussing. I'm really glad you are engaging these threads so enthusiastically, don't worry about bringing anything down.

My goal is to improve my designs as much as possible, and any angle we can examine things from is a welcome one.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
re. fixing: I agree that one of the worst feelings in Cube is when you draft a Cube with too many gold cards and poor manafixing and end up with a kaleidoscopic mess with a basic-heavy manabase, but it doesn't have to be that way. The Cube I'm working on atm is gold-/fixing-heavy and the best decks are consistent two-colour machines.
 

CML

Contributor
RGD is completely and utterly the best draft format of all time and it is impossible to print anything like it again under NWO.

lucre, you'll find that the power level is fairly low for pretty much all cubes here -- if not low then 'flat.' or maybe the cards individually have low power levels but they coalesce into incredible decks.

all ideas are valuable, though some are less valuable than others, and the sheer hatred with which most magic communities react to criticism is indicative of mental illness. mental illness is kind of the norm elsewhere.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Also I have to say I'm super impressed with the amiable tone and sorta discourse I'm seeing here on a number of threads. I think I might be bringing it down a bit with my phone paragraphs but you hardly see any arguments of authority, dismissive citations, raised hackles or anything on here. I keep feeling like I should be getting ready to defend myself but all I get is more stimulating discussion.


I'm frankly impressed that you're able to type anything of merit at all from your phone. When I need to write out anything on my phone more than two sentences, my blood pressure starts rising and I get that little nervous tick from the corner of my mouth. I wouldn't even dream of responding to a forum post, let alone cohesively, from my phone. Bravo for doing so, and doing it well!
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
re. fixing: I agree that one of the worst feelings in Cube is when you draft a Cube with too many gold cards and poor manafixing and end up with a kaleidoscopic mess with a basic-heavy manabase, but it doesn't have to be that way. The Cube I'm working on atm is gold-/fixing-heavy and the best decks are consistent two-colour machines.

Yeah, this is all about consistency in design. It's the topic of my next article.

In my current cube we sometimes have two-color decks with 8-9 fixers. They're very powerful.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
RGD is completely and utterly the best draft format of all time and it is impossible to print anything like it again under NWO.

lucre, you'll find that the power level is fairly low for pretty much all cubes here -- if not low then 'flat.' or maybe the cards individually have low power levels but they coalesce into incredible decks.

all ideas are valuable, though some are less valuable than others, and the sheer hatred with which most magic communities react to criticism is indicative of mental illness. mental illness is kind of the norm elsewhere.


Less "low power" then a focus on making sure that the most powerful strategies are fun and interactive. That said this Eldrazi-Domain cube is much lower power than my primary cube.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I uploaded the list to CubeTutor (http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/625). As expected it drafts pretty terribly and needs a ton of work. I probably have too many narrow cards, and simultaneously not enough structure to direct the picks. I think I just need to systematically go through these drafts, write down the cards I feel gross about and go back to the drawing board.

We also need a less-flat power curve. Things are way too equal power level here, and I feel lost looking at the packs. I need to think about the distribution of first-pickable cards across the archetypes (our "rares" if you will, were it a retail environment).

But I'm excited! This is a fun and challenging task.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
That's an interesting point about making the power curve less flat deliberately. I know we value power curves as flat as possible in traditional cubes. But for cubes that are a little more unique or out there, having cards that are obviously more powerful than others seems like a great hand-holding mechanism, especially for new drafters unfamiliar with the cube.

I'm beginning to see why steep power curves are necessary in actual retail Limited formats, where all of the cards are brand spanking new.
 
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