General Fight Club

[Velrun]

As I wrote in the War of the Speark thread:

I dislike Gideon Blackblade because the player who controls him have no choices to make.

- He will always activate his +1 because there is no reason not to grow him and he has no other abilities to choose to activate.
- He will always attack because he is only a creature for the turn which means he cannot be held back to block incoming attacks. He is also indestructible and cannot take damage so there is no reason not to attack with him.

Unlike any other creature or planeswalker: This card is just on auto pilot and the controller is just a spectator.

 

[ravnic]

I think you're starting to fall into the "trying to make something janky work" category. For years I tried to make a really large Orzhov enchantments theme work, until I eventually just cut a lot of the support for the deck. I was able to keep the theme, and I would even argue it's better now that I made it smaller, but I wasn't able to jam a ton of support in my list. The reason for this was simple: there weren't enough good enablers at the power level I was trying to build toward.

Landfall is an extremely difficult deck to make work since some of the enablers are pretty great while others are inherently terrible. I think the cards you're running right now make pretty good sense. Zendikar's Roil, as an example, is a type of board advantage engine that isn't backbreaking. It's a good place for a payoff to be. However, that doesn't mean you should be jamming in more random 5s with landfall just for the sake of having more 5s with landfall. Zendikar's Roil is just a good card, while the other options are fairly mediocre.

If you really want another 5-drop with landfall for U/G decks, I would recommend Guardian of Tazeem. It's pretty powerful, but not really above the rest of your list.

If you're looking for green 5s, then I would just recommend picking something that is good with having lots of lands. As an example, consider:

Heroes' Bane is really good in a deck that's playing a bunch of lands and is presumably ramping in the process. However, it doesn't need to be in a dedicated lands deck to be good. It's better in a specific deck, but playable elsewhere, much like Zendikar's Roil. The same cannot be said for something like Sporemound.

I think you are right. A slightly better quote of payoffs is not worth adding something that is both, narrow and too good/bad for my powerlevel. Sometimes your working so much on making something function, that you lose your objective judging.

Guardian of Tazeem was a tad too powerful for a blue 5 in our list, being basically a removal check. I'm giving Embodiment a chance for 2 drafts. If it doesen't surprise me positively, I'll just add a nice mana sink like Heroe's Bane. Thanks alot!

If you're still looking for an Orzhov-theme, I had quite a bit of success lately with lifegain matters!

 

[Chris Taylor]

As I wrote in the War of the Speark thread:

I dislike Gideon Blackblade because the player who controls him have no choices to make.

- He will always activate his +1 because there is no reason not to grow him and he has no other abilities to choose to activate.
- He will always attack because he is only a creature for the turn which means he cannot be held back to block incoming attacks. He is also indestructible and cannot take damage so there is no reason not to attack with him.

Unlike any other creature or planeswalker: This card is just on auto pilot and the controller is just a spectator.

I get all that, but I still would recommend him over trials because all that non decisions creep towards the game ending, instead of it not.

Mind you, it's kinda a weird comparison. Despite their shared name, comparing these two cards is like comparing oblivion ring and brimaz. Neither of them really play out like planeswalkers, much closer to just a Creature or just a removal spell

 

[Erik Twice]

I don't know, I would rather have a longer if interesting game than a short game where someone drops an undercosted 4/4 Indestructible and wins the game. It's not like a full game of Magic is long. Are long games really a concern?

 

[Velrun]

I don't know, I would rather have a longer if interesting game than a short game where someone drops an undercosted 4/4 Indestructible and wins the game. It's not like a full game of Magic is long. Are long games really a concern?

In my personal opinion, no.

But if you have a group of 8 people drafting a cube and one of the matches take a whole lot longer than the other three matches, then you end up with a bored crowd of 6 people. There are other solutions to that problem (TV show running in the background or other entertainment.)

 

[TrainmasterGT]

vs.

Trials is more generically useful in a handful of different archetypes, but Blackblade is a sweet card for W/x aggressive strategies that can be cashed it to remove a roadblock later in the game.

I like Gideon Blackblade a lot more than Gideon of the Trials. Gideon of the Trials is just an annoying fog with a bad Platnum Angel attached. Blackblade, on the other hand, is just a fun card to play with. It's one of the only planeswalkers that hasn't been punishing to play against while still being powerful.

As I wrote in the War of the Speark thread:

I dislike Gideon Blackblade because the player who controls him have no choices to make.

- He will always activate his +1 because there is no reason not to grow him and he has no other abilities to choose to activate.
- He will always attack because he is only a creature for the turn which means he cannot be held back to block incoming attacks. He is also indestructible and cannot take damage so there is no reason not to attack with him.

Unlike any other creature or planeswalker: This card is just on auto pilot and the controller is just a spectator.

I don't entirely agree with this. Although Gideon Blackblade is going to be "on rails" for the first turn or two after you play him, he adds a lot of depth to the game after his initial turn. The choice to use him as a vindicate is a real one for his pilot, especially in a fast matchup. It's only totally on rails if the only good thing to do with him is +1 and attack, which honestly is the case with a lot of Planeswalkers. Gideon Blackblade's issues are just an easier to spot version of a common issue many planeswalkers have- activating the +1 ability is just better when your ahead. The complexity of this card only becomes apparent when it's pilot is equal with or behind their opponent in the game.

 

[Erik Twice]

Which one and why?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Roar of the Wurm in an environment where you want green to be the "graveyard matters" deck. If you have discard outlets and/or other ways to get that card into the graveyard, it's simply a higher upside and a more satisfying line of play. Call of the Herd is the card you should run (of those two) if you are not that environment. Call is meant to be cast from the hand, then flashed back for additional value. It's a really, really bad payoff for the discard matters deck, as a 3/3 for isn't anything to write home about, if that's all you're getting from the card.

 

[ravnic]

Yeah, I agree, but I love both of these. And Call is still fine as it still is card advantage when you discard it for something impactful like a looting effect e.g.

A 4-mana Kavu Climber is still a great card.

 

[ahadabans]

Call of the Herd is a powerful card. Was in PowerMax lists for a long time. It's CA and great in goodstuff decks or things like the Rock. If you need support for those decks, run it. Anything powerful enough to run with flashback is generally going to increase the fun and depth of your cube regardless of what themes you have in there.

 

[Erik Twice]

Which one and why?

 

[Tzenmoroth]

Omenspeaker because Augur reads "look at the bottom three cards of your library".

 

[Mondschwein]

Augur sucks in most cubes. I like the new Faerie of Modern Horizons that scries 2 while being a 1/1 flier for U more than the speaker but it depends on what creatures are in your cube at cc1/2/3 for the speaker to block.

Call of the Herd is such a beautiful card design. nuff said

 

[Brad]

Augur is a little too good when it hits and feels like shit if it misses in a spell dense deck.

Omenspeaker always does what you expect.

 

[vennythekid]

If you want spells matters but it doesn't have to be blue, then Burning Prophet would be my choice for 2-mana 1/3.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Burning prophet kicks ass! Triggering from anything noncreature is a brilliant design move from WoTC, and the scrying really helps with keeping it going. This is a slam dunk in my opinion.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

vs

I'm looking to add a green planeswalker that is pretty mellow in my big cube rebuild. Both of these seem fine, I'm trying to figure out which to run. I am looking for a sort of "go wide" ramp package in GW, so I'm thinking Nissa would be more synergistic in the cube, but maybe Vivien does enough general work in green to be fine?

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Which one and why?

Omenspeaker's ability to set up draws is far better than sometimes grabbing an instant or sorcery, even in cube.

vs

I'm looking to add a green planeswalker that is pretty mellow in my big cube rebuild. Both of these seem fine, I'm trying to figure out which to run. I am looking for a sort of "go wide" ramp package in GW, so I'm thinking Nissa would be more synergistic in the cube, but maybe Vivien does enough general work in green to be fine?

Vivien, champion of the wilds requires way too many creatures to be card advantage most of the time. Basically, she's usually just a Vedalken Orrery for creatures that also gives a dude vigilance. Nissa, voice of zendikar's ability to provide board advantage and grow a team of creatures is pretty good. I've heard from Chris Taylor (I think, don't quote me on that statement) that people won't often use Nissa to pump their team, even when it would benefit them to do so, in a vain attempt to draw cards. Nissa is better than Viv in my opinion, but she works against the player's desires at times.

I think another good option for "Mellow Green Walker" would be:

Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury has a similar ultimate to Nissa, but isn't over-powering. Her negative ability is genuinely useful. Her +2 makes a great token as well.

 

[ravnic]

Which one and why?

Why not:



I think he's the best 2-mana blink target for blue and guarantees value.

Else I'd be for Omenspeaker. There are better payoffs for spells matter than augur.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Omenspeaker is solid. Helps survive against aggro and gets you gas or land as needed. She's just not very exciting. Watcher doesn't block the turn it comes down and is easier to remove. Depends if you want anti aggro/early game set up or blink/bounce advantage.

Im interested to see how watcher plays out, particularly if you have a lot of blink and bounce.

 

[sigh]

I'd personally much rather have fblthp, the lost than watcher. And I definitely like Omenspeaker better, but they seem to be in slightly different roles.

 

[Nanonox]

I'm seeing pros to both of these cards and really cannot decide.

Bident

• Is an artifact (for Teshar, Sai, ...)
• Can draw multiple cards
• In a MP game, can leave a player wide open (though this is rarely used)

Network

• Creates a board out of almost nothing

Help appreciated!

 

[ravnic]

Network. It is my favorite artifact payoff since you just need 1 to get it stsrted, but it inproves slightly with every artifact (creature) in your deck.

Bident is just a payoff for the evasion decks. That's fine, but in other decks it feels too much win more for me.

 

[Nanonox]

Interesting, as I saw Bident as a less narrow card than just evasion decks:

• Payoff for tokens as it draws a card for each creature dealing damage (where Network is capped at 1 no matter how many attackers)
• Value from my random assortment of utility creatures/mana dorks (functions like a second Edric)
• Draw engine for evasion decks (as you mentioned)

The downside is that it needs a board to actually do something whereas the Network creates a board.

 

[ravnic]

It depends on blue's role in your meta, but I think you answered yourself there. In my cube it would be more common for blue than curve with a Signet or other mana rock into Network than having a wide and/or evasive board presence.

In the end, the cards are not really competing for the same slot. Bident gives you a reward for being strongly into skies or Ux tokens, whereas Nerwork is like I said a great artifact payoff, where you don't need to go all in for most of it's power. The question is probably just what you want in this slot. Both are cc4 enchantments with a draw ability, but they don't fulfill the same role imho.

I prefer Network generally, cause it is not only a payoff but also an enabler for it's respective deck.