General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
I think you've managed to find the project with the least favorable effort-to-satisfaction ratio imaginable.
add an archetype of things like Benalish Trapper, and play only trap music during the draft portion, and i'm in!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Thinking about it... I'm not sure if the perfect Trap Cube would even be possible, especially if you're trying to be sneaky about it (AKA not just stuff obvious stuff like "there's only one Sliver in the cube"). You'd want to do something like:
"Um, why did you try to build an Izzet Prowess deck? Clearly you were supposed to draft Izzet's real archetype, Spiritbinder Pseudo-Twin."
Which is why I'm not going to try to actually build it. It's a neat thought exercise about what constitutes a "trap" in cube design, though.
- Include cool build-arounds but keep the density of stuff that synergizes with them below the threshold of viability (this is the easy part).
- Include cards that synergize well together but only if you play them in a pedantically specific order. For bonus points, pick stuff that causes arguments about layers.
- You'd want the cube to be fast (so you can include durdly "build arounds" that are too slow and ineffective to do anything), but you need the fast decks to feel terrible to play.
- The actually effective decks need to be super unintuitive and entirely unsignposted unless you're familiar with the cube (like the Spider Spawning secret archetype but ass).
- There are combos, but they all take 3+ cards to work and the removal definitely isn't tuned to let that work.
"Um, why did you try to build an Izzet Prowess deck? Clearly you were supposed to draft Izzet's real archetype, Spiritbinder Pseudo-Twin."
Which is why I'm not going to try to actually build it. It's a neat thought exercise about what constitutes a "trap" in cube design, though.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
LadyMapi everyone: tirelessly working so you don't have to 
You have been caught by the millennium bug… it was a year later, but the trapper is not even necessary.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I lost to this combo in my first ever sealed game, against a friend, I didn’t know about prereleases back then. I could have sworn he introduced me to the game in my first year of university, but apparently it was a year later
Ah. Playing magic as it was intended! Bashing with weak cards and a lot of randomness.I lost to this combo in my first ever sealed game, against a friend, I didn’t know about prereleases back then. I could have sworn he introduced me to the game in my first year of university, but apparently it was a year later
why are you just describing my cube
I lost to this combo in my first ever sealed game, against a friend, I didn’t know about prereleases back then. I could have sworn he introduced me to the game in my first year of university, but apparently it was a year later
The year of printing is written on the card. Maybe you had some other first experience with the game the previous year? I have sometimes mixed things up in my head when thinking back 20+ years.
I started during Onslaught. I feel like Odyssey block is "really old."
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I mean, you predate Odyssey, think about that!
Both extremely powerful cards. Which one do you prefer and why? Is Demonic "too easy" or "a bit too expensive"? Is not getting the card into your hand with Vampiric a huge issue for combo? Do you mind the change in CMC? Let me know!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Are these for combo decks? I don’t run any tutors myself, but I reckon both have cons and upsides. Demonic is good when going off on a turn, but if you pop it early, it does make your hand vulnerable to targeted discard. Vamp is great at assembling a line the turn before you go off, without exposing you to targeted discard, but it is card disadvantage. Vamp probably is a bit more universal as well, because it’s easier to sneak in a one mana setup spell into a turn than a two mana spell.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
My experience in vintag-y settings is there is a big gap between vampiric and demonic, I've seen quite a few five star storm decks trip over their own feet all night because they were constantly one card behind killing their opponent on like turn 3, because of the difference between these two.
Vampiric is still insane, well worth including, but has an actual cost demonic leaps over.
In fair enviornments (like mine), demonic tutor is slightly better impulse, and vampiric is not worth casting
Vampiric is still insane, well worth including, but has an actual cost demonic leaps over.
In fair enviornments (like mine), demonic tutor is slightly better impulse, and vampiric is not worth casting
If I see these two in a pack and no other information about the cube, I would take the Demonic Tutor. It can go in both fair and unfair decks alike since it isn't card disadvantage.
Yes it's too easy IMO, no it's not too expensive. I'm conflicted in regards to tutors because the generic ones can reduce diversity and replay value when you are always getting your best good stuff card (Fable of the Mirror-Breaker), but at the same time, they enable some cool shenanigans with unique build arounds (Living Death).
I decided to include "subpar" ones that you will only include if you really need it. Vampiric Tutor is one such and the other is Wishclaw Talisman (for synergy purposes with Welder/Engineer, Teferi, Touch the Spirit Realm, ...). That way, they end up where they are needed and can help fringe strategies be more consistent. DT can do that, but also helps the rich get richer, so I'm avoiding for now.
Combo decks usually have a ton of cantrips or ways to draw cards. I haven't found that to be a huge issue, but it definitely means you need to plan your turns out!
vs Reliable kill spell or unique land effect? Let me decide!
A couple in each case. Not many of either.
With your current list (assuming you're planning to put this in the cube you're linking in your sig), you have exactly three lands (Treetop Village, Rishadan Port, and Urza's Saga) that can benefit from the turtle at all, and Treetop Village is the only land that gets the full benefit.
I'd honestly go with the Woof, and consider adding some more cards that make Food so the second ability isn't as much of a false signal (Tireless Provisioner is a sweet and lovable child).
I am not a huge fan of either. You already have Six that does something similar to the Tortoise, not sure if you need to double up on that effect.
As for the Wolf, it's basically worse than all your other removal spells. In Red you have Mawloc and Pyrogoyf + burn that put it to shame. Black has infinite removal and some very high impact 4 drops that you would slot in before the Wolf. White is similar to Black with very potent targeted removal. An argument could be made for Simic decks which are known for being limited in that department. But even then, looking at your Blue 4s, you have Venser and Sower which would probably be included before the Wolf.
In addition to all that, it doesn't even hit all the important targets you could want at 4 mana. You can pick off most 1 and 2 mana creatures. At 3 mana, it's a 50/50ish chance that you trade. And at 4 mana you won't kill many creatures at all. You can also just kill it in response to the ETB and it does nothing. So unless you go hard on the Food plan as Lady suggested, I'd avoid it at 4 mana.
An alternative could be Garruk Relentless if you want a fight card at 4 mana.
As for the Wolf, it's basically worse than all your other removal spells. In Red you have Mawloc and Pyrogoyf + burn that put it to shame. Black has infinite removal and some very high impact 4 drops that you would slot in before the Wolf. White is similar to Black with very potent targeted removal. An argument could be made for Simic decks which are known for being limited in that department. But even then, looking at your Blue 4s, you have Venser and Sower which would probably be included before the Wolf.
In addition to all that, it doesn't even hit all the important targets you could want at 4 mana. You can pick off most 1 and 2 mana creatures. At 3 mana, it's a 50/50ish chance that you trade. And at 4 mana you won't kill many creatures at all. You can also just kill it in response to the ETB and it does nothing. So unless you go hard on the Food plan as Lady suggested, I'd avoid it at 4 mana.
An alternative could be Garruk Relentless if you want a fight card at 4 mana.