Chris Taylor
Contributor
Cool! Never thought of that one.
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Cool! Never thought of that one.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
If I can jump back to the art tanget for a bit, I found my favorite:
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/feature-article-why-you-should-be-sideboarding-lands/
BAM! You're chances to hit the required amount of lands are higher with 16 lands on the draw than they are with 17 lands on the play! I never knew this, and I will certainly use this to my advantage the next time I play limited!
Wow, I thought I'd read all of the CFB articles over the years, but I don't remember this one. Thanks for the find!
I think it's an interesting starting point for research and conversation, but I remain skeptical. There are a lot of things the article doesn't cover, such as being able to produce all of the required colours of mana from your land base. It might be ok to go from 17 mountains to 16 on the draw in your mono-red aggro deck, but if you're Grixis and your colour requirements are stretched as far as they'll go, cutting any one land could be disastrous. Colour screw is a much bigger problem in limited than in constructed, despite people running good fixing around these parts, so I'm not sure I'd ever shave a land if I was running three colours.
The other main consideration the article misses is that it's not the end of the world to miss a land drop on the play, while it's more critical not to miss one on the draw. The reason is that you're already a half turn ahead if you went first, and if you miss a land drop, you're now simply a half turn behind, but you're presumably up on spells. On the other hand, if you went second and are already behind a half turn, you very likely can't afford to fall a full one-and-a-half turns behind. So, all else being equal, I actively want that extra 10% probability to hit my third land drop on turn three. Also, being on the draw and missing a land drop early on makes you more likely to need to discard, whereas that isn't true on the play.
All told, I think the matter of sideboarding out a land on the draw is more complex than those three tables would illustrate. Like most other raw data presented without context, I think it's important to apply your own analysis to it, before simply accepting the most straightforward conclusions of said data as gospel. But don't just take my word for it; there's another interesting, recent article that addresses this same topic.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-better-sideboarding/
I think it's an interesting starting point for research and conversation, but I remain skeptical. There are a lot of things the article doesn't cover, such as being able to produce all of the required colours of mana from your land base. It might be ok to go from 17 mountains to 16 on the draw in your mono-red aggro deck, but if you're Grixis and your colour requirements are stretched as far as they'll go, cutting any one land could be disastrous. Colour screw is a much bigger problem in limited than in constructed, despite people running good fixing around these parts, so I'm not sure I'd ever shave a land if I was running three colours.
The other main consideration the article misses is that it's not the end of the world to miss a land drop on the play, while it's more critical not to miss one on the draw. The reason is that you're already a half turn ahead if you went first, and if you miss a land drop, you're now simply a half turn behind, but you're presumably up on spells. On the other hand, if you went second and are already behind a half turn, you very likely can't afford to fall a full one-and-a-half turns behind. So, all else being equal, I actively want that extra 10% probability to hit my third land drop on turn three. Also, being on the draw and missing a land drop early on makes you more likely to need to discard, whereas that isn't true on the play.
All told, I think the matter of sideboarding out a land on the draw is more complex than those three tables would illustrate. Like most other raw data presented without context, I think it's important to apply your own analysis to it, before simply accepting the most straightforward conclusions of said data as gospel. But don't just take my word for it; there's another interesting, recent article that addresses this same topic.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-better-sideboarding/
Inspired by CML's post on 7-drops.
I currently run Ashen Rider because it's much better in reanimator, but Angel of Despair is way more castable. Basically exiling two permanents >>> destroying one permanent, but seven mana >>> eight mana. Thoughts?
(Also: Ashen Rider is blinkable by Restoration Angel for what it's worth.)
Going back to this post, I prefer Angel of Despair since it's actually castable. But I must chime in regarding Magister of Worth: the card is way too good. It stabilizes you from any position and then blanks their next threat or just kills them. It's such a piss-easy splash in any sort of control deck and the fact that it's a creature lends the card far more value than Phyrexian Rebirth. Unlike Rebirth, your opponent can't fuck with the token and she's always huge and has flying. Add to that the recursion/reanimation/clone/survival possibilities and you will begin to see a problem. Honestly, she was one of the most oppressive cards i've added to my cube and I'm glad I cut her. She's slightly weaker than Wurmcoil and Grave Titan on average, but she can be better in some situations, which is pretty fucked up when you think about it. People often recover from Elesh Norn in my cube, but Magister was close to unbeatable.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Nice feedback!
Say you want a wrath effect in
, and accepting that Magister of Worth is too brutal, which one would you pick?
I'd go with Culling Sun based on artwork and nostalgia. Some crazy shit is seriously going on in Culling Sun, just look at that. How terrifying! Imagine that happening! Merciless Eviction just looks like Halo 4 is trying to edge its way into other games, and I'd rather forget it all together.
Culling Sun is mono color and instant speed now, though:
I'm a big fan of merciless eviction's flexibility. We need more cards that slap planeswalkers.
I'm a big fan of merciless eviction's flexibility. We need more cards that slap planeswalkers.
I wish Merciless Eviction let you "choose two". But to answer your question, I like Eviction more since it answers anything.
Yeah I know consume the meek. It's never seemed good enough to run, which is why Culling Sun won't go in, even though I like it more for bad reasons.
Not to belabour this point much further, but I think the two cards are closer on the power level spectrum than we're putting them. It's true that Magister of Worth is better suited for all sorts of shenanigans, but I also suspect that in the majority of actual gameplay situations, a no frills vanilla 4/4 will get the job done just as well on an empty board. We're also underestimating the cost of splashing, which isn't as easy as it's made out to be. Thanks to Lucas's innovations over here, UWR is probably the most common control colour combination, followed by straight UW, and you even see the occasional Bant list. When two cards are similar enough in functionality and cost, I think it's better to open up the slightly weaker option to a wider variety of decks. It's the same reason most of us feel Detention Sphere and Supreme Verdict are wholly unnecessary, when rough equivalents exist in mono-white.
I fully expect to need to ban Phyrexian Rebirth a few months from now; it's already on my watch list, despite not having run a single draft with it yet.
I think Dreampaint is right on this one I'm afraid Eric. There is so much more to the creature aspect from a tutor/blink/reanimate perspective than an artifact token. I still like the rebirth but I think there's a fair gap in power. You're right re splashing, but that depends on cube content/design.
CML
Contributor
The problem is that Rebirth isn't always a 4/4. That's what makes Magister so good. Against one or two threats she is great where Rebirth is miserable. I haven't played with Rebirth, but instead I run Martial Coup. I've been moderately happy with Coup and it hasn't felt OP at all. And it's got more play to it than Rebirth and Magister, which I enjoy.
Yeah, Martial Coup came to mind for me as well, as it's in a similar class of spell. It was pretty busted, though, even in the earlier high-power iterations of my cube, so it got the axe pretty quickly.
Don't forget that on the other end of the spectrum, Rebirth can make creatures a good deal larger than a 4/4, too. I cast multiple non-Rebirth Wraths in my own cube today, and none was for fewer than four bodies, while one cleared out over eight. If you draft enough spot removal, it's not difficult to craft board states where you're not using your sweepers as one-for-one trades.
To be clear, I understand what everyone are saying, but with gold slots being as precious as they are - I imagine most of us run over fifty mono-coloured cards, but devote only four or five gold slots to each colour pair - I'm willing to take a modest reduction in power for a card that slots into a wider swath of decks. Like, we're talking about a card that's maybe a 9.5/10, versus a 9/10, but the latter makes zero demands of your manabase. These days, I'm less excited by the efficient utility spells in gold - your Terminates and Detention Spheres - and more by the build-arounds that will actively get drafters to consider a splash. As strong as Magister of Worth may be, it doesn't feel like a particularly unique effect if you're already deep in white during a draft, compared to, say, Sphinx's Revelation, Unburial Rites, or Ajani Vengeant. Especially when there exist multiple white Wraths that perform a similar function.
Don't forget that on the other end of the spectrum, Rebirth can make creatures a good deal larger than a 4/4, too. I cast multiple non-Rebirth Wraths in my own cube today, and none was for fewer than four bodies, while one cleared out over eight. If you draft enough spot removal, it's not difficult to craft board states where you're not using your sweepers as one-for-one trades.
To be clear, I understand what everyone are saying, but with gold slots being as precious as they are - I imagine most of us run over fifty mono-coloured cards, but devote only four or five gold slots to each colour pair - I'm willing to take a modest reduction in power for a card that slots into a wider swath of decks. Like, we're talking about a card that's maybe a 9.5/10, versus a 9/10, but the latter makes zero demands of your manabase. These days, I'm less excited by the efficient utility spells in gold - your Terminates and Detention Spheres - and more by the build-arounds that will actively get drafters to consider a splash. As strong as Magister of Worth may be, it doesn't feel like a particularly unique effect if you're already deep in white during a draft, compared to, say, Sphinx's Revelation, Unburial Rites, or Ajani Vengeant. Especially when there exist multiple white Wraths that perform a similar function.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I am going to crash the art nostalgia party. Old magic art was strange and weird, and for every Serra Angel or Sengir Vampire, you had dozens of stinkers like these:
What is with carapace? Why does the dude's armor include a ball sack on his back? What is with the blinding blue and light blue beams as the background on recycle? Would a real background have cost too much money? Why is there a frog and a lizard in the foreground of Joven's Ferrets?
Yes...these are full size images to drive this important point home, and make us grateful for what we have today.
Don't you be dissing these sweet pieces of art!
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I cut all the white wraths and couldn't be happier.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Wait all of them?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well I'll be damnned.
He still has damnnation, Living Death, disk, and a few red sweepers.
Also cataclysm, but that's a different beast
He still has damnnation, Living Death, disk, and a few red sweepers.
Also cataclysm, but that's a different beast