General Fight Club

[ahadabans]

I gotta say, it's kind of crazy how much people play Tombstalker with a reduction and no flying. Considering Tombstalker was getting precisely 0 play.

This is what I was tripping out on recently. Most people cut Tombstalker a long time ago and never looked back (I still run him but I've been in the minority on that for awhile now).

Anyone running Angler instead of Tasigur for power reasons… I don't get that one. Tasigur is a good card, but he's really not broken.

 

[Aoret]

That one has always been really simple to me. One of the cards has play to it, the other really doesn't. Until Tasigur starts shitting all over games in a Grave Titanlike fashion, he stays.

 

[Jason Waddell]

This is what I was tripping out on recently. Most people cut Tombstalker a long time ago and never looked back (I still run him but I've been in the minority on that for awhile now).

Anyone running Angler instead of Tasigur for power reasons… I don't get that one. Tasigur is a good card, but he's really not broken.

I think in Modern, at least, that there are so few permanents on the board that the evasion doesn't make a huge difference. 5/5 is going to rumble in anyways, very few creatures there can block it. It's not like Delver that needs the evasion to swing in without trading. Although the deck runs both so they don't really have to choose.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

This is what I was tripping out on recently. Most people cut Tombstalker a long time ago and never looked back (I still run him but I've been in the minority on that for awhile now).

Anyone running Angler instead of Tasigur for power reasons… I don't get that one. Tasigur is a good card, but he's really not broken.

I'm also on team Tombstalker. But I'm also on team Tasigur! Both cards rock imo

 

[vennythekid]

You also never see anyone playing Distress, but Thoughtseize is everywhere for the exact same reason. 1 mana makes a huge difference, especially when it's a colored mana.

Plus, in cube (or constructed too, I suppose), 1C vs CC makes a huge difference in terms of splashablility. BB is much harder to hit early (Delve is strongest early) in a 3+ color deck.

I think in Modern, at least, that there are so few permanents on the board that the evasion doesn't make a huge difference. It's not like Delver that needs the evasion to swing in without trading.

There are a ton of huge butts in Modern that make evasion relevant. Just to list a few common ones:
Tarmogoyf
Young Pyromancer
Wall of Omens
Spellskite
Kitchen Finks
Deceiver Exarch
Siege Rhino
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Gurmag Angler

So as early as turn 2, the evasion on Delver is VERY relevant.

5/5 is going to rumble in anyways, very few creatures there can block it. . Although the deck runs both so they don't really have to choose.

And this is why Gurmag Angler is stronger than Tasigur in Delver. The extra power lets him cleanly break through anything and live to tell the tale, which is worth much more than the card advantage you gain on Tasigur (at least in Delver). Plus, he's not legendary, so you're never stranded with an awkward second copy in hand.

 

[blacksmithy]

Like, yeah, in Modern i understand the Angler love. For my cube, i'd rather have the weaker guy(s) that actually do things. As of late last night i'm running Tombstalker, Tasigur, and Muckdraggers, and we're finally cubing tomorrow. I'll let you all know whether my sleepless rant was correct.

 

[Jason Waddell]

There are a ton of huge butts in Modern that make evasion relevant. Just to list a few common ones:
Tarmogoyf
Young Pyromancer
Wall of Omens
Spellskite
Kitchen Finks
Deceiver Exarch
Siege Rhino
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Gurmag Angler

So as early as turn 2, the evasion on Delver is VERY relevant.

Sorry, what I meant is that a flipped delver, as just a 3/2, needs evasion, but Gurmag Angler, as a 5/5, generally doesn't. So the extra mana cost of Tombstalker in exchange for flying generally isn't worth it. We're on the same page here.

 

[ahadabans]

I have no doubt this is all true in constructed, but very little of this applies to cube IMO (at least my cube).

Comparing Distress/Thoughtseize to Tombstalker/Angler feels completely wrong to me. Targeted discard is something you definitely want early. Not saying you don't also want 5/5 monsters early - of course you do - but how on earth are you casting either of those guys early enough in the game where the extra B is that much of a game changer? Tombstalker plays as a finisher over here, which means he comes down pretty late in the game (T4 at the earliest). And he rarely costs BB (more like 2BB). The flying makes all the difference in the world later in the game.

Tasigur costs one less than Angler and hypothetically I think that is super relevant (I've played Tasigur in cube but not Angler so to be fair I'm theory crafting a bit). Tasigur you generally want as early as you can get him because he doesn't fly like Tombstalker. His ability in my mind is less useful than some make it out to be though. 4 mana for a card your opponent chooses is something I very rarely take advantage of unless I'm in top deck mode or know I'm getting something super great. So Tasigur is generally just a big dude you get at a discount. In cube, that is good but unspectacular compared to a lot of what else goes on.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

His argument wasn't to draw an exact analogy between targeted discard and delve creatures, but to illustrate the difference that one extra mana can make. Counterspell vs. cancel or dig through time vs. treasure cruise are other, similar arguments.

The main problem with tombstalker or necropolis fiend (which btw is the card that should be running long before sleeving up sibsig muckdraggers) is the . If you are on a spell velocity based gameplan, having to spend an extra mana hurts your ability to maximize your spell sequencing on that turn. If you are running it alongside counterspells, in a sort of modern draw-go setup, its harder to protect with counterspells. If you are running a "legacy lite" format, than double is a disadvantage against wasteland. If you are trying to turbo it out, tombstalker comes out a turn later. Finally, because angler costs rather than you can splash it in a huge variety of decks from aggro to midrange to control.

Its just a really great card.

Another factor is that prior to khans graveyard oriented velocity strategies weren't a reality in cube, which was part of why tombstalker saw no play. When I have insane incentive spells like dig through time, treasure cruise, murderous cut, gurmag angler, and tasigur, the golden fang (backed up by classics like snapcaster mage), suddenly support cards like thought scour or satyr wayfinder are much more appealing.

Tombstalker was mechanically isolated for years, which is no longer the case. I think this is less of an issue of tombstalker vs. gurmag angler, and more an issue of why not run both.

 

[blacksmithy]

Grillo, your post is great, and it actually encapsulates some recent (unlisted on CT yet) changes I've been making to further push various graveyard synergies in my cube. There's a LOT of things you can do now with your graveyard without being strictly a reanimator or recursion deck, and you can do those things in pretty much any color combo. Thanks Obama!

I like Muckdraggers because of its ETB and creature type, so the fact it's obviously low-power doesn't bother me. I just want a Delve Zombie that Raises Dead, y'know?
Now, I can see myself switching to Necropolis Fiend from Tombstalker if I owned a Fiend, but that difference isn't enough to make me buy a Fiend.



Still hate Angler.

 

[ahadabans]

Delve is great in cube. You won't get any arguments from me there. I just don't think it has all of a sudden become great because there are more delve cards and things like Satyr Wayfinder now. I run the majority of these cards and have a lot of graveyard support - maybe not like Gillo's cube. But Tombstalker isn't more playable now IMO. It was always a generic 5/5 flyer you got on a discount. And it is still is.

At 450, I really don't think I want or need more than Tombstalker and Tasigur as big black delve dudes. Decks can't support delving 4-5 cards every turn, so you can't just throw all these cards in a deck and have it function.

The primary reason I am so resistant to adding Angler is because I really don't think Tasigur is incredibly good. He's totally decent to be sure, but a more expensive version with 1 extra power and no special ability is all kinds of "filler" in my mind. Unless my cube was all-in graveyard.

I just see this delve love as a bit of bandwagoning to me. It's good, but running every delve creature in existence IMO is not where most cubes should be going. There is such thing as too much of a good thing. This mechanic has a real expense associated with it. Dig Through Time is a great card. But it completely sucks after you played another delve card and your yard is at zero cards. The more of these types of cards you run, the worse the ACS becomes for all of them.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The reason delve is a big deal is because 1) its an impetitus for velocity driven gameplay, and 2) its a graveyard theme that dosen't require much support.

Most graveyard themes are really isolated requiring too much support in a general cube. The penny cube dosen't have a focused graveyard theme in it as their just isn't space for it, but I can still include some level of graveyard interactions because of delve: a mechanic that involves the graveyard, but is at its core more of a tempo play, which rewards people for aggressively playout out spells.

You're not going to be rushing out an angler or tasigur on turn 2 in cube, but the real value is when you get into the mid or late game and can sequence out 2-3 spells in one turn, fueled by simply playing the game.

I don't think every delve creature should be run, but the ones that do make the cut are excellent:



Combine that with murderous cut, dig and treasure cruise for a very compact graveyard package. You than can create some interesting graveyard focused metagame relationships between those cards and other cards that care about the graveyard: e.g. tarmogoyf, snapcaster mage, deathrite shaman, scavenging ooze, ghastly demise, darkblast etc. They also work great with the fetchlands that everyone likes to run.

I feel like part of the disagreement is because you're playing larger multi-player games, and these sort of hyper efficent plays probably feel much less impactful. In a format that is much less about tempo, and much more about attriting out the opposition through card advantage, these cards are not going to be positioned as well.

 

[shamizy]

The only delve creature I run is Tasigur. The others just aren't as interesting to me nor have any added play to them. They're just efficient beaters that you cast for nothing in the later game. I don't really ever wanna cut a more interesting creature in those colors for something so boring.

 

[Chris Taylor]

New Topic:

vs

 

[RavebornMuse]

Managorger all day and it isn't even close. He rewards well-crafted decks and Trample keeps him extremely relevant. The single G in the cost is great, too.

Champion.. Where do I begin? 1GG for a 2/2 is already dull as nails, and you're probably playing him on T4 so he doesn't die immediately while you belch a land on the board, unless you're ramping into him. Then, every turn that you play a land, he gets harder for aggro/creatures/burn to interact with, while still being easy pickings for non-burn control decks. You want to include more Midrange vs Control incentives? Well, here comes your man. Personally, I have enough difficulty pushing aggro hard enough in my fast environ that I don't care to give green another big stupid creature that is neigh-unkillable in a R-based or creature-centric matchup, but that's me. I get it, Phantom creatures were cool, but they play hell on red and creature aggro, so I suggest anyone who worries about aggro vs green run, not walk, away from Champion as quickly as possible.

 

[blacksmithy]

Yeah... Undergrowth Chump is not what I'm looking for in a green 3-drop.
However, over the weekend I sharpied out the word "basic" on a Borderland Ranger, and that is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for in a green 3-drop. Managorger is pretty cool too if you're looking for a green beater.

 

[kevthewalker]

Wurm over Champion.


In a format with lots of tokens:

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Dictate because its a combat trick that impacts the board. I think crusade is cool but it's abysmally slow.

 

[ahadabans]

Dictate is crazy good. I really like it.

Many times a +2/+2 effect is sooooo much more relevant than +1/+1. It's the sole reason Citadel Siege is playable.

 

[Enki]

I run both at the moment. Depends on your environment. In a MP-Cube both should be run. If you have only room for one card Dictate all night long.
If you play with counters I would also include the crusade, performed pretty good e.g.
or or or and friends in green, red etc.

To name a few cards, that most cubes run...

 

[Aoret]

I don't really see the appeal of these super bomby +2/+2 enchantments. I've been seeing the "oh man, it's so... GOOD!" argument/justification at lot lately; that isn't a good enough argument for running a card (and is how powermax happened in the first place). What ever happened to "good in my cube, but not necessarily good for my cube"

Not saying the card shouldn't be run, but just that I haven't seen a single reason listed for why I should run the card other than the fact that it is good-tokens or not, that's a backbreaking play. I'd almost rather have you cast Elesh Norn because even if some of my dudes get swept at least I can doom blade that shit.

 

[ahadabans]

To me, a card like Dictate of Heliod is a classic white anthem effect (for that reason alone I want to run it). And it's powerful enough to be an incentive for token decks too. So I think you can argue it isn't just in my cube at least for power reasons.

On the flip side of the coin, token strategies are inherently problematic in my experience because they require a lot of sweeper effects to balance (which tend to be format warping if you run too many). For a while now, I've been having a hard time finding that middle point where token strategies are good and worth drafting but not overpowered (part of this is the overlap with blink, but that's another conversation entirely).

Back to Heliod… it's very expensive at 5 mana. The effect isn't overpowered at that cost IMO, and it requires that you have a decent board presence. I've played games where it won the game for me and I've played games were it rotted in my hand. I honestly think it's pretty well designed. As someone else mentioned, it's also a combat trick and I like encouraging more of that in cube personally.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I'm not sure a 5 mana enchantment that does little if you're behind needs to be doom bladeable

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I cut back on blink effect hard (there's Flickerwisp and a custom 2/2 haste without evasion that blinks on attacking, and that's it I think), and I really don't mind the "loss". Makes for less repetetive sequences to be honest. Blink certainly wasn't healthy for AVR limited, so we have at least one WotC sanctioned format where it proved to be annoying if supported too hard.

 

[ahadabans]

Yeah. I've had a blind spot for this problem I think because I love blink decks. But I'm doing the same thing now - cutting back on a lot of the blink effects. These decks don't need many to be very competitive because the base power level of these cards is already high (ETB cards in particular).