General Fight Club

[Onderzeeboot]

This largely comes down to whether you want your gold lands to support midrange and control decks (the vivids), or if you want to throw aggro decks a bone. Not only do City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Gemstone Mine enable first turn fixing for aggro decks, they also come with a cost for the slower decks, a cost that aggro decks can prey upon.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I am way more partial to the first group. I also think most of the first group have more "play" to them than the Vivids.

 

[Meltyman]

First group with the caveat that i see City of Ass instead of Tendo Ice Bridge

Vivids are slow and you need to hook up with the right one for your color, not a huge fan of that. Rather have temples as my ETB tapped lands.

 

[Mondschwein]

Tendo Ice Bridge, Grand Coliseum and the Vivid lands all suck. For aggro I personally like Thran Quarry, although wrath effects get a lot better.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Tendo Ice Bridge, Grand Coliseum and the Vivid lands all suck.

Patently untrue. Grand Coliseum and Vivid lands are perfectly acceptable in slower decks. The question is, do you want to encourage that kind of fixing?

 

[Mondschwein]

That verdict was very subjective, thus it can't be 'untrue'. I just don't like that kind of fixing, I want my mana to be immediately usable. There are more elegant (hihi) ways of encouraging midrange and control.

 

[japahn]

Patently untrue. Grand Coliseum and Vivid lands are perfectly acceptable in slower decks. The question is, do you want to encourage that kind of fixing?

Vivids are, but Grand Coliseum was always terrible for me, and never worth running instead of a basic land. The decks that are slow enough to run it don't want to take the pings, and the decks that need the colored mana don't want to take so many pings either.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Vivids are, but Grand Coliseum was always terrible for me, and never worth running instead of a basic land. The decks that are slow enough to run it don't want to take the pings, and the decks that need the colored mana don't want to take so many pings either.

I can't remember ever playing a game where I wanted to tap a vivid for mana and couldn't because I ran out of counters. I'm not 100% sure I'd take an off-color vivid over the coliseum, but I think there's a strong argument for it. They only thing Coliseum has going for it as tapping for Eldrazi stuff.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I can't remember ever playing a game where I wanted to tap a vivid for mana and couldn't because I ran out of counters. I'm not 100% sure I'd take an off-color vivid over the coliseum, but I think there's a strong argument for it. They only thing Coliseum has going for it as tapping for Eldrazi stuff.

I mean as a huge fan of proliferate, dice on my lands is actually super annoying...

 

[Eric Chan]

Generic black control value card:

vs. vs.

 

[sigh]

I really like wretched confluence. I think its not too busted, and provides a cool mix of what control likes doing. For hard control, I like being able to recur wincons late game if needed. Its maybe a little better in a sorta GB, WB rock sorta deal, where you are grinding a lot more. Returning 2-3 creatures with incidental upsides is really gas in that situation.

 

[genericco]

Profane Command is sad to be excluded from the generic black control value party

 

[Eric Chan]

Profane Command is safe, as one of the premier black control anchors - it's been in there since the beginning, and is only getting better as I lower my format's power level. I'm just trying to figure out how to supplement the archetype with more grindy value spells, in lieu of overpowered finishers like Grave Titan.

 

[Peter LaCara]

Grip of Desolation can't possibly be a card at the power level most of us run our cubes at. Its strength in BFZ draft was as much a product of the format it was in as anything else. If you dropped it into, say, SOI draft, it'd be a C+ pick at best.

So I guess it comes down to Palace Siege vs Wretched Confluence. I could see an argument for either. Siege is slower and grindier, while Confluence is faster and more versatile, so I guess it depends on what you actually want your black control decks to look like.

Here's a better question for black control, assuming you want grindiness:

vs

 

[Diakonov]

Re: grindy black control cards



I've found Kokusho to be a lot better than she looks.

 

[japahn]

Palace Siege is sweet, works as a finisher, helps surviving with the life gain and avoids stalls. Also, the Raise Dead mode is sometimes better and also creates inevitability. Surprisingly, it has been played 70% in the drain 2 mode and 30% in the Raise Dead mode here.

 

[Fulcrum]

Re: grindy black control cards



I've found Kokusho to be a lot better than she looks.

I like that Kokusho plays well with Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Distended Mindbender.

 

[Eric Chan]

Pick two:

 

[yan]

inquisition and duress. i took out negate in cube but black could use some. i like them all

 

[Dom Harvey]

Inquisition and another Thoughtseize

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Duress and transgress if you're only playing two. I have blackmail as well. Really like transgress but depends on your curve.

 

[Mondschwein]

I doubled up on Blackmail, Inquisition and Duress. If I had to pick two, it would be Blackmail and Inquisition.

 

[Eric Chan]

I'm on team "Hate Thoughtseize" (aka Team Kibler), and I know it's a pretty divisive issue both within the larger Magic community as well as on here, so I don't really wanna open that can of worms right now. But basically I'm looking for the best of the other options.

Related question: what's the optimal number of these targeted discard effects to run in a 360 list?

 

[Diakonov]

I think it depends a lot on whether you want black aggro to be able to target a wrath.

 

[Peter LaCara]

I think it depends a lot on whether you want black aggro to be able to target a wrath.

I feel like the answer to that question should always be 'yes.'

Hmm. Blackmail was originally going to be my pick, but maybe I do want Duress instead.