General Fight Club

[Rusje]

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Actually, here's a question - assuming a cube where all instants and sorceries have retrace, which of these cards is most interesting?

kidding aside, the disdain is only good against expensive cards (and it filters a bit). Grip is only good when the opponent has a large yard, and then it is not of use anymore. Invasive can be too strong since you can retrace.
That said, many players do not like playing against repeatable counters, so keep that in mind. That makes the grip the most palatable one I think.

 

[LadyMapi]

How much would your calculus change if most of the "engine pieces" for the cube lived in the graveyard (e.g. Pyretic Ritual instead of mana rocks)? Would you still think Grip was the most palatable?

(Thinking through which cards work well with retrace is legitimately giving me a bit of a headache. Like, is Far Wanderings an excessive card-advantage engine? Would Not Forgotten be acceptable graveyard hate in the format, or would it be a prison piece? What kind of removal can I run without it being hyper oppressive?)

Actually, I just thought of a fourth potential counter:



The idea here is two-fold — the land bounce pays for the next Deprive/spell, but also reduces the amount of mana you have available on future turns. It's probably way too mana-efficient, though...

 

[Rusje]

How much would your calculus change if most of the "engine pieces" for the cube lived in the graveyard (e.g. Pyretic Ritual instead of mana rocks)? Would you still think Grip was the most palatable?

(Thinking through which cards work well with retrace is legitimately giving me a bit of a headache. Like, is Far Wanderings an excessive card-advantage engine? Would Not Forgotten be acceptable graveyard hate in the format, or would it be a prison piece? What kind of removal can I run without it being hyper oppressive?)

Actually, I just thought of a fourth potential counter:



The idea here is two-fold — the land bounce pays for the next Deprive/spell, but also reduces the amount of mana you have available on future turns. It's probably way too mana-efficient, though...

When the engine pieces are the ones with retrace the math changes a bit. The problem with grip and disdain is that they replace themselves with a draw.

Suppose a heavy sorcery/instant cube:
1) grip is probably useless since the opponent can play around it by removing its graveyard once. Then leaving only one retrace spell and replaying it makes grip a dud. Grip is Nice when the yard is full as a graveyard removal with carddraw.
2) disdain replaces itself with a draw, but the other card will also be able to be replayed by the opponent… this becomes a mana/how much lands do you have battle. As long as the disdain player has more, it is over. The replace makes it in this case quite strong.
3) invasive does not replace itself but single-handedly removes ALL sorceries of the opponent and has the added benefit that the opponent had to pay mana for it. A bit like we built a wall and they will pay for it kind of card.

I love the idea, but most cards with retrace are relatively weak, with a reason. (Repetitiveness, life from the loam nonsense) The cards which give you options to play from the yard tack an exile clause to the cards played from the yard. Maybe you could do the same? It would avoid a lot of issues.
E.g, (once each turn?) a player may casts card from his yard for its mana cost with an additional cost of discarding a land.
Or each instant and sorcery in the yard has flashback with the cost equal to its mana cost and discard a land.

 

[LadyMapi]

Eh, the fact that the format is going to be utterly degenerate is part of the fun.

I'm also unlikely to run Life from the Loam (maybe if there was a version that didn't have Dredge?) If I'm going to include ways to loop lands, it'll be something like Turntimber Sower or the like.

 

[Rusje]

Eh, the fact that the format is going to be utterly degenerate is part of the fun.

I'm also unlikely to run Life from the Loam (maybe if there was a version that didn't have Dredge?) If I'm going to include ways to loop lands, it'll be something like Turntimber Sower or the like.

The problem with utterly degenerate is that it becomes stale quite quickly. However, what I would do is just use one of your regular cubes and add this rule and see what happens. If you like what happens you can make a special cube

 

[LadyMapi]

"Regular" cube? I don't actually have any.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

The problem with utterly degenerate is that it becomes stale quite quickly.

That's not necessarily true. The MODO Vintage Cube is degenerate, but lots of people enjoy drafting it again and again. Much of it comes down to personal preference.

 

[Modin]

I'm also unlikely to run Life from the Loam (maybe if there was a version that didn't have Dredge?) If I'm going to include ways to loop lands, it'll be something like Turntimber Sower or the like.

 

[Zoss]

I also have it on good authority that The Degenerate Micro-Cube is both

a) degenerate
and
b) quite fun!

 

[shamizy]

That's not necessarily true. The MODO Vintage Cube is degenerate, but lots of people enjoy drafting it again and again. Much of it comes down to personal preference.

I don't know about that. A lot of times they bring it back for a set period of time for drafting, but I'm not sure how popular it would be year-round. I feel like the novelty of "limited time only" is what keeps people at it again and again like I've seen on streams over the years. I think it's kind of like the McRib where people are like whoa, the McRib is back! And then they try it once or twice and feel like nah I'm good, the McRib is actually pretty gross. Then a year passes and WHOA! THE MCRIB IS BACK! And we repeat the process ad nauseum.

 

[Rusje]

I don't know about that. A lot of times they bring it back for a set period of time for drafting, but I'm not sure how popular it would be year-round. I feel like the novelty of "limited time only" is what keeps people at it again and again like I've seen on streams over the years. I think it's kind of like the McRib where people are like whoa, the McRib is back! And then they try it once or twice and feel like nah I'm good, the McRib is actually pretty gross. Then a year passes and WHOA! THE MCRIB IS BACK! And we repeat the process ad nauseum.

Thank you. This was my point exactly. It is probably fun for a few tries and then the novelty wears of and people recognise that it is unbalanced and boring.

Not that I mean it cannot be pulled of. On the contrary, but turning the rules upside down requires a different viewpoint and probably a completely different cardpool to valence things. That is very difficult, but rewarding to pull off.

Case in point. If everyone starts at 60 life, aggro becomes very different.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Thank you. This was my point exactly. It is probably fun for a few tries and then the novelty wears of and people recognise that it is unbalanced and boring.

Not that I mean it cannot be pulled of. On the contrary, but turning the rules upside down requires a different viewpoint and probably a completely different cardpool to valence things. That is very difficult, but rewarding to pull off.

Case in point. If everyone starts at 60 life, aggro becomes very different.

Ah EDH

Big fan of other games for this reason. Draft some 7 wonders, play dominion, fire up online with something wildly different (Like the 15 card cube)
I think my whole playgroup drafts more often and more consistently because we usually alternate between my extremely fair enviornment and Freyja's vintage cube (With the occasional appearance of whatever Dom built this week )

 

[LadyMapi]

I mean, you're also making the assumption that I have a group of people who would be drafting this cube on the regular.

Which is flattering, don't get me wrong, but the reality is that this would be a design exercise that would probably get drafted once or twice as a novelty.

As for the "turning the rules upside down requires a different viewpoint, maybe a different card pool"... that's kinda why I cube? I like fucking around with rules and finding out. Playing the game is strictly secondary to playing with the game, if that makes sense.

(Like the 15 card cube)

Side note - I'm actually not a fan of "no decking" rules in this kind of cube. I like the fact that the cube has a hard limit on how many turns a game can last.

 

[Rusje]

I mean, you're also making the assumption that I have a group of people who would be drafting this cube on the regular.

Which is flattering, don't get me wrong, but the reality is that this would be a design exercise that would probably get drafted once or twice as a novelty.

As for the "turning the rules upside down requires a different viewpoint, maybe a different card pool"... that's kinda why I cube? I like fucking around with rules and finding out. Playing the game is strictly secondary to playing with the game, if that makes sense.



Side note - I'm actually not a fan of "no decking" rules in this kind of cube. I like the fact that the cube has a hard limit on how many turns a game can last.

It sure does make sense. When turning stuff upside down it forces you to rethink. I like that, but it is not an easy task.
It probably requires a few passes, and is more likely that you are better off with a complete new game. It is very hard for players who know mtg when the rules are changed a lot. It has a tendency that it becomes like bringing a gun to a knife fight, but with the caveat that a player who plays it only once or twice thinking that it is a gun while it is actually a knife.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I mean, you're also making the assumption that I have a group of people who would be drafting this cube on the regular.

Which is flattering, don't get me wrong, but the reality is that this would be a design exercise that would probably get drafted once or twice as a novelty.

As for the "turning the rules upside down requires a different viewpoint, maybe a different card pool"... that's kinda why I cube? I like fucking around with rules and finding out. Playing the game is strictly secondary to playing with the game, if that makes sense.



Side note - I'm actually not a fan of "no decking" rules in this kind of cube. I like the fact that the cube has a hard limit on how many turns a game can last.

You are possibly lowest on my list of "Having a novel drafting experience to mix in from time to time"

Also I'd counter that a hard limit on the number of turns makes certain decks just flat impossible, diversity I'd encourage where I can. It's usually not all that difficult to figure out who wins when both decks are face up on the table once someone is "out of library". This also applies to aggro decks as well as slower strategies, if decking is in place you've got a REAL short timeline to deal 20.

Also mill is quite strong in this kind of format for just the flat amount of things it denies your opponent, Dream Twist is juuuuuust below the bar of toxic.

 

[LadyMapi]

You are possibly lowest on my list of "Having a novel drafting experience to mix in from time to time"

I dunno if that's supposed to be a compliment or not.

As for the "short deadline to deal 20"... I forgot to mention that my particular 15-card environment started everyone with 10 life. And that the "grindy" decks were packing stuff like Serene Remembrance.

 

[Chris Taylor]

It's 100% a compliment. Something I've always struggled with in my environment is (Ugh forgive me) "The byline"
It's really hard to communicate what my cube is like in less than the length of your average podcast other than "it has customs", and even with that detail, what is it like?

EVERYTHING I've seen you do is not only interesting, but also really comprehensible in a way I know is a weakness of mine.

As for the "short deadline to deal 20"... I forgot to mention that my particular 15-card environment started everyone with 10 life. And that the "grindy" decks were packing stuff like Serene Remembrance.

So Serene Remembrance is is still an excellent card if you don't include decking because you get to reuse typically one off resources. Especially in being able to have a breaker for "I did a thing that would win me the game, you answered it, now what do we do?"

You can address the initial problems with a format like this by changing either decking or starting life totals, but I feel like changing decking leads to more interesting card choices PLUS you get to alleviate some baseline stress in deckbuilding, changing the initial question you asking during drafting from "How am I going to not die?" to "What do I want to do?"

 

[Nanonox]

Cheap Black self-mill options (this would be Stitcher's Supplier #2).



Supplier is the cheapest, mills the most, but also has the least value. It's also breaking singleton, but I am not too worried about that.

Triton is the best at stabilizing the board, but mills the least. Deathtouch means you trading with something or deterring attacks, and the 2 life isn't nothing.

Butler gives you the best value, but seems more middle of the road. Mediocre body and exiles itself.

What would you chose?

 

[blacksmithy]

the 1 drop

 

[ravnic]

I'm playing everything but the Stitcher. Only going in a focused selfmill strategy makes it too narrow for my taste.

 

[Zoss]

Double Feature (better than the WotC one!)



I feel like Ashnod's is the best way to make a combo happen in a relatively combo-light list. Do either of these work if you're not using them to finish a game?



Similarly, I know that in constructed Fires was a midrange/control tool and Frenzy an aggro one. Does this hold true in cube as well or are they more versatile here?

 

[inscho]

I feel like Ashnod's is the best way to make a combo happen in a relatively combo-light list. Do either of these work if you're not using them to finish a game?

I’d say no, but I wouldn’t be a Riptidian if I said there wasn’t an environment where it was possible!

There could be a cube out there with recursive creatures and tokens in abundance with a bunch of x-spells

The difficulty is finding payoffs for altar that don’t culminate in a game ending scenario, but are still strong enough to justify the investment of altar + multiple sac’d creatures. I ran Ashnod’s at peasant level to drop uncommon eldrazi alongside the likes of channel and generator servant. It didn’t win on the spot, but introduced a game finishing scenario. I suppose it’s up to your definition of finishing a game

In general, I’ve found the altars to be fairly fringe in even combo cubes imo fwiw ymmv etc etc

 

[Velrun]

I don’t see it either but it’s probably possible somehow.

For 3 mana you get a double mana ramp like Worn Powerstone or Gwenna, Eyes of Gaea so it would have to sacrifice more than one creature to be beneficial on the mana front if not looking at the combo potential. Otherwise those types of cards would be stronger for the controller. Losing a creature is a hefty price outside combo.

 

[Zoss]

Ok, thanks! That's helpful feedback.

 

[Rusje]

Double Feature (better than the WotC one!)



I feel like Ashnod's is the best way to make a combo happen in a relatively combo-light list. Do either of these work if you're not using them to finish a game?



Similarly, I know that in constructed Fires was a midrange/control tool and Frenzy an aggro one. Does this hold true in cube as well or are they more versatile here?

If you want to sac creatures without comboing then I suggest