Chris Taylor
Contributor
I hate that both of these spells just have a chance of not doing what I want
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Both Edge and Explore aren't really "jam this in any deck that can run Green" cards.
Explore is a card that's great if you have a land in hand or on top of your library, and incredibly mediocre otherwise. If the deck isn't drawing cards or tutoring up lands, I would honestly be more interested in Broken Bond or Swell of Growth (the landfall combat trick you didn't know you wanted
).
Edge of Autumn, on the other hand, is a hilariously specific card. Unless your cube really wants a "free" Mental Note, it's basically a card that fits in exactly decks that want to get to 4 mana but don't care about getting to 5 mana.
Of course, the other cards you're running in your Green section can really affect how good Explore and Edge are. Like, if your Green section has a bunch of Crucible effects or Life from the Loam, Edge becomes really solid.
Explore is a card that's great if you have a land in hand or on top of your library, and incredibly mediocre otherwise. If the deck isn't drawing cards or tutoring up lands, I would honestly be more interested in Broken Bond or Swell of Growth (the landfall combat trick you didn't know you wanted
).Edge of Autumn, on the other hand, is a hilariously specific card. Unless your cube really wants a "free" Mental Note, it's basically a card that fits in exactly decks that want to get to 4 mana but don't care about getting to 5 mana.
Of course, the other cards you're running in your Green section can really affect how good Explore and Edge are. Like, if your Green section has a bunch of Crucible effects or Life from the Loam, Edge becomes really solid.
i like explore quite a bit more. i may be biased by not running more than 1-2 basics in my cube decks
I run 2 Explore and 1 Edge of Autumn, so I'm in camp "why not both?" If you're trying to make any sort of ramp work with consistency, you want multiples of this type of card, so unless you've already maxed out on Rampant Growth and are just looking for a bit of spice I'd say that a mix might be what you want.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Edge is, honestly, also great in those decks. In fact, I run Edge of Autumn, Explore, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds and Ramunap Excavator in my cube.
I would cut Emergent Sequence because it has too many words
I like emergent. It makes the land a creature which makes it a better card than rampant in my book. Rampant growth is a real bad topdeck, emergent slightly less bad. I cannot see your cube but I do not know edge is better than growth in your cube.
Either they do the same, or one is sacrifice a land to cycle which can be quite steep versus filtering your deck.
Maybe you need a rampant growth with cycling 2?
I would easily run Edge of Autumn over most of them, particularly Farseek and Rampant Growth.
I think I'll just cut Harrow for Explore instead:
I think I'll just cut Harrow for Explore instead:
If you're not cubing Edge + Flagstones you're a coward.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think an interesting way to look at this dilemma is asking yourself which is better; Rampant Growth or a 2/2
Llanowar Elves, because that’s what Emergent Sequence often boils down to. I myself don’t think a two mana Llanowar Elves is that good. It’s not faster than Rampant Growth (like the real Llanowar Elves), but it is a lot more vulnerable. The goal of ramp is to accelerate into the mid and/or late game, and at that point a 2/2 is probably not very relevant to you anyway.The point I tried to make is that in a topdeck mode I rather have a 1/1 which filters me than a land. Yes, it is vulnerable, but destroy is not cheap. If the opponent is destroying my land I am quite happy.I think an interesting way to look at this dilemma is asking yourself which is better; Rampant Growth or a 2/2
The reason I've never vibed with Emergent Sequence, even in decks/formats designed to maximize it, is that there's a big difference between creature-based ramp and land-based ramp.
Rampant Growth is land-based ramp — once it puts that land onto the battlefield, it has done its job. It's very likely that you're permanently up a mana, since removal that can get rid of lands tends to both be niche and more expensive than the two mana that you spent on Rampant Growth.
Emergent Sequence, despite putting a land onto the battlefield, isn't land-based ramp. It's effectively just an ETB tapped mana dork, subject to all of the normal removal that you'd use to bolt the bird. And, while it can end up with decent stats (3/3 or 4/4 for is generally what you're looking at here)... it gets them at the wrong point in the game.
Usually, a good mana dork is going to be ramp early in the game and useful for other stuff later — compare Emergent Sequence (potentially a 4/4 for in the early game if you're lucky, topdecks as a 1/1) to Werebear (a 1/1 for in the early game, topdecks as a 4/4) or Llanowar Loamspeaker (a 1/3 for that "attacks" as a 3/3 in the late game).
Rampant Growth is land-based ramp — once it puts that land onto the battlefield, it has done its job. It's very likely that you're permanently up a mana, since removal that can get rid of lands tends to both be niche and more expensive than the two mana that you spent on Rampant Growth.
Emergent Sequence, despite putting a land onto the battlefield, isn't land-based ramp. It's effectively just an ETB tapped mana dork, subject to all of the normal removal that you'd use to bolt the bird. And, while it can end up with decent stats (3/3 or 4/4 for
is generally what you're looking at here)... it gets them at the wrong point in the game.Usually, a good mana dork is going to be ramp early in the game and useful for other stuff later — compare Emergent Sequence (potentially a 4/4 for
in the early game if you're lucky, topdecks as a 1/1) to Werebear (a 1/1 for in the early game, topdecks as a 4/4) or Llanowar Loamspeaker (a 1/3 for that "attacks" as a 3/3 in the late game).Well, but Emergent Sequence has some small edges mostly because it is still land based ramp. It triggers landfall. It removes a land from your remaining deck. It can be replayed with LftL/Crucible and such, grows your Knight of the Reliquary or Worm Harvest. Additionally, it counts as a spell that goes to the yard and it works with +1/+1-counter stuff. Many small things that Werebear can't do.
Also, a two mana 3/3 that taps for a mana of a chosen color is pretty great.
Also, a two mana 3/3 that taps for a mana of a chosen color is pretty great.
I could say the same thing about Siege Rhino...
Not sure if this is the place for this, but it's the closest to being the right thread.
Would it be nuts for me to make the following swaps in a low-power cube - specifically the Ana grid list linked in my sig?
Dimir Charm -> Phenax, God of Deception
Shambling Shell -> Pharika, God of Affliction
Shambleshark -> Kruphix, God of Horizons
There are only two clean answers to them in the list at present (Tear Asunder and Overwhelming Remorse sometimes), which is the source of my concern, but Phenax definitely screams "Mill people!" to bolster what is currently the weakest archetype, Pharika makes snake tokens which the cube supports and gives some much needed grave hate, and Kruphix isn't particularly offensive when all the expensive spells have cost reduction attached.
Getting 5 additional devotion is doable, but there's enough interaction to turn them back into enchantments and boards tend to stay fairly light until the game is close to over already, so I don't know how worried to be about the bodies. Animating a Phenax against mono-G might be the backup plan UB needs to survive the onslaught that Devotion stompy is capable of.
So, people who have cubed with them: Would the Theros gods invalidate other lategame wincons like Rise from the Tides? Are their static abilities interesting? I only have the vaguest memories of Theros block limited (It was dull, Phenax was too good, Pharika pretty solid, Kruphix a bit shit), and no memories at all of playing against any of these three outside of it.
Would it be nuts for me to make the following swaps in a low-power cube - specifically the Ana grid list linked in my sig?
Dimir Charm -> Phenax, God of Deception
Shambling Shell -> Pharika, God of Affliction
Shambleshark -> Kruphix, God of Horizons
There are only two clean answers to them in the list at present (Tear Asunder and Overwhelming Remorse sometimes), which is the source of my concern, but Phenax definitely screams "Mill people!" to bolster what is currently the weakest archetype, Pharika makes snake tokens which the cube supports and gives some much needed grave hate, and Kruphix isn't particularly offensive when all the expensive spells have cost reduction attached.
Getting 5 additional devotion is doable, but there's enough interaction to turn them back into enchantments and boards tend to stay fairly light until the game is close to over already, so I don't know how worried to be about the bodies. Animating a Phenax against mono-G might be the backup plan UB needs to survive the onslaught that Devotion stompy is capable of.
So, people who have cubed with them: Would the Theros gods invalidate other lategame wincons like Rise from the Tides? Are their static abilities interesting? I only have the vaguest memories of Theros block limited (It was dull, Phenax was too good, Pharika pretty solid, Kruphix a bit shit), and no memories at all of playing against any of these three outside of it.
I am looking for another mono green payoff and boiled it down to these two. Pretty different cards they are.
Primal Bellow is a very good combat trick in the right deck, having a ceiling even higher than Become Immense and Gaea's Might. It's also cheap, which is cool.
Howl is a big payoff, costly but hopefully gamewinnig. It works with the ramp/landfall identity mono green has in my cube, which is a big plus. There are also token synergies, even in another green devotion card Renata, Calles to the Hand.
Which one do you like more?
Primal Bellow is a very good combat trick in the right deck, having a ceiling even higher than Become Immense and Gaea's Might. It's also cheap, which is cool.
Howl is a big payoff, costly but hopefully gamewinnig. It works with the ramp/landfall identity mono green has in my cube, which is a big plus. There are also token synergies, even in another green devotion card Renata, Calles to the Hand.
Which one do you like more?
Primal Bellow is tricky - you're either all in on mono-G devotion stompy, or you aren't playing it. It's also a card that pretty much only takes a winning game to a won one, and while it's important to slam the door on someone there are games you would have won anyway without it. I kinda prefer Howl for those reasons - especially since you mentioned that Ramp and tokens are supported in your green section.
I am not a huge fan of either of those for supporting mono Green because of how narrow they are (two levels IMO).
The first level is regarding the color requirements obviously, they are only playable in very heavy Green decks. The second level is from a macro archetype perspective. One is for an aggressive deck and the other a slower ramp or control deck.
I'd rather see something like
That can be cast in both decks to great effect, but still forces you to be very Green heavy. It could even be a self-mill win condition in some weird games or cases.
If I had to chose between the two, I'd rather have Howl of the Night Pack as it is more unique (Vines of Vastwood is pretty close or even better than Primal Below).
The first level is regarding the color requirements obviously, they are only playable in very heavy Green decks. The second level is from a macro archetype perspective. One is for an aggressive deck and the other a slower ramp or control deck.
I'd rather see something like
That can be cast in both decks to great effect, but still forces you to be very Green heavy. It could even be a self-mill win condition in some weird games or cases.
If I had to chose between the two, I'd rather have Howl of the Night Pack as it is more unique (Vines of Vastwood is pretty close or even better than Primal Below).
Altar of Dementia by a country mile
2cmc >> 3cmc sac outlets. It’s a win-con. It fills your graveyard with more recursive threats, fishes out a Hogaak, or sets up a large Living Death. Fuels a spicy Yawgmoth’s Will or Underworld Breach
Phyrexian Altar has always been fringe at best for me.
2cmc >> 3cmc sac outlets. It’s a win-con. It fills your graveyard with more recursive threats, fishes out a Hogaak, or sets up a large Living Death. Fuels a spicy Yawgmoth’s Will or Underworld Breach
Phyrexian Altar has always been fringe at best for me.