General Fight Club

[safra]

The best reason to vote for Phyrexian Altar is an environment where you have multiple Gravecrawlers and a viable Storm archetype (where it enables saccing Gravecrawler for and recasting it an arbitrary number of times; bleeding storm into creature-storm). Short of both of those, it's Altar of Dementia for sure.

 

[shamizy]

Altar of Dementia is a better roleplayer in more decks while Phyrexian Altar is pretty much just a combo outlet from my experience, and you usually need 2 other pieces. I don't play either currently but I'd lean towards Dementia.

 

[Karshtakavaar]

Thank you for reminding me of this card's existence, it's going straight into my Ana grid cube.

 

[Erik Twice]

2cmc >> 3cmc sac outlets.

For me that's the biggest thing, isn't it? The 3 mana slot of everything is so crowded.

 

[ravnic]

I'd rather see something like



That can be cast in both decks to great effect, but still forces you to be very Green heavy. It could even be a self-mill win condition in some weird games or cases.

I had considered Beacon originally. But I figured out, that all of my mono green decks would prefer a 7-mana version, that makes 2/2s instead. However, I've decided to run neither and instead decided to bring back a card, that has been in my cube years ago.



This is worse in mono green at seven mana (or eight, it's the same p/t at nine), but I think the flexibility is worth it, flexibility on two levels that is. It can be cast for anything from four mana upwards and goes into two or three colored decks as well. I can play it as a flexible 4/5/6-drop in my golgari midrange deck or cast it for twelve mana in my mono green superramp pile.

So, from these two Altar of Dementia has a much broader appeal and is cheaper, so I'd take that. But it's not a particular fun card imo in a 40-card world. Have you considered:



It's cheap, free to activate and works incredibly well with sac and artifact strategies of all kind. Also, neat with tokens. Or boardwipes. It's a great little cog to many decks.

 

[Nanonox]

I thought about suggesting Wolfbriar Elemental, but figured it would be too strong. Definitely my favorite out of the options for mono Green support as it is solid with even 3 or 4 Green mana.

So, from these two Altar of Dementia has a much broader appeal and is cheaper, so I'd take that. But it's not a particular fun card imo in a 40-card world.

Not trying to tell you how to have fun obviously, but I'll try to say why it's fun for me (other than cheap and free colorless sac outlet).
- It's an enabler for GY decks (with all the synergies inscho mentioned in their post).
- It's a mill win condition
- It converts creatures into another resource. This is key IMO to having unique and whacky decks pop up.
- Weird corner case scenarios where you can mess up a Mystical Tutor or reset cards from a Brainstorm.

Spawning Pit is a great option if you don't have a strong GY theme or want a more traditional aristocrat deck (converting creatures into more creatures is amazing there), but you lose out on unique interactions and decks.

 

[ravnic]

I have to admit, I have no play experience with AoD, but I could imagine games with somewhat bigger board, where one player gets the upper hand but then the other topdecks the altar, sacs his remaining 11 power of creatures and mills the opponent. That feels like ooops I win to me.

But I can definitely see the appeal in drafting and crafting unique decks with it. Of course also the self-mill potential, but I think there are better options for it.

 

[inscho]

I have to admit, I have no play experience with AoD, but I could imagine games with somewhat bigger board, where one player gets the upper hand but then the other topdecks the altar, sacs his remaining 11 power of creatures and mills the opponent. That feels like ooops I win to me.

This is relative to format speed and the type of boardstates an environment generates imo.

Erik's cube is reasonably high powered and relatively fast so I think it's a pretty fair inclusion even if he was worried about feel bads.

 

[Nanonox]

The best reason to vote for Phyrexian Altar is an environment where you have multiple Gravecrawlers and a viable Storm archetype (where it enables saccing Gravecrawler for and recasting it an arbitrary number of times; bleeding storm into creature-storm). Short of both of those, it's Altar of Dementia for sure.

This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you!

I recently drafted a cool deck in Erik's cube and was trying to think of other ways to get that Gravecrawler loop going.

BG creature-storm

The deck used Gravecrawler + Earthcraft, a Zombie and a sacrifice outlet to get infinite creature casts.

I couldn't figure out how to get another Gravecrawler type card. Turns out you can run 2!

Phyrexian Altar is both mana and sacrifice making it a superior Earthcraft variant for the deck.

Now to figure out a zombie package to make Gravecrawlers worth it...

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Now to figure out a zombie package to make Gravecrawlers worth it...

There's also other nice synergy zombies to combo with Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar.

Headless Rider and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver both generate infinite mana.
Archghoul of Thraben mills your whole deck (and draws all the zombies).
Noxious Ghoul wipes out all non-zombies every turn.
Wretched Anurid makes you lose infinite life!

 

[Chris Taylor]

Wretched Anurid makes you lose infinite life!

Value!
Also generally true outside this combo, as well

 

[ravnic]

I thought I would prefer Lagomos as an enabler over Juri as a payoff for sacrificing. But then I remembered I'm running 18 Prismatic Vistas ...

 

[landofMordor]

I don’t love Lagomos as a design, anyways. A combat trigger that creates a unique token with a keyword AND a delayed trigger, plus a body that’s too often a glorified enchantment and a tap ability that’s hopelessly aspirational. I played Lagomos in like 2 CubeCon drafts and every game missed at least one trigger. Juri is probably more powerful, but significantly more streamlined.

 

[blacksmithy]

Juri is SURPRISINGLY good

 

[TrainmasterGT]

I don’t really love either of these cards as the only card in an R/B section tbh.

 

[ravnic]

I don’t really love either of these cards as the only card in an R/B section tbh.

Why is that?

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Why is that?

I think Lagomos is more complicated than it needs to be, and Juri is more of a support card for a sac deck than a primary engine.

Personally, I like these a little more:

Dropper and Priest can both be enablers and payoffs depending on what the player needs at the time, and Mayhem Devil is a really elegant payoff. I didn't suggest these initially because I don't know what you're necessarily looking for, but just thinking about the options, these seem like the most fun to me.

 

[ravnic]

But isn't Mayhem Devil the same kind of supporting payoff like Juri? Just stronger? And I feel like the Devil would be too sick triggering of boh players Prismatic Vistas. Slaughter-Priest on the other hand has proven a little too clunky when tested.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

But isn't Mayhem Devil the same kind of supporting payoff like Juri? Just stronger? And I feel like the Devil would be too sick triggering of boh players Prismatic Vistas. Slaughter-Priest on the other hand has proven a little too clunky when tested.

I think it’s more that Mayhem Devil is a reason to play a sac deck (3/3 body is fine by itself and the potential ceiling is very high if you can support it), while Juri is more a reward for a deck that is already doing a lot of sacrificing.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I too think that Mayhem Devil is the objectively better card, and much better than Juri, Master of the Revue in a deck that has sac elements but doesn't revolve around it, but I worry that it's a bit much in a environment with 18 Prismatic Vista's. It's a bummer it triggers on your opponent sacking things as well. For that reason, I'm inclined to vote for Juri.

 

[ravnic]

... while Juri is more a reward for a deck that is already doing a lot of sacrificing.

Actually, this very helpful conversation makes me want to try Lagomos. Unlike Juri, he provides (and endless stream of) on part of the A+B combination a sac deck needs to work. Also triggers all the support cards with death triggers like Zulaport Cutthroat etc.

Yes he's a bit wordy and complicated, especially with that second ability which I would happily trade for an additional point of power or toughness or menace, anything really. Still might be my best option currently.

He also might have some lesser obvious synergies, which is a big plus. Cards that care about creature etb like Mentor of the Meek, all the Ninjas with Ninjutsu, Cranial Plating with the activation ...

 

[landofMordor]

Lagomos feels like a heckin chore to track and maintain. I don’t want to discourage you from trying him, but I’m not sure if I emphasized that enough in my initial reply. Granted, I might not have felt that way if he wasn’t on a board full of other overlapping triggers. So if he’s the most complex card on your battlefield, plus is cool and powerful, then that might outweigh the downsides.

 

[ravnic]

I've just read your post in your cube thread about what you've learned from CubeCon, and I totally get where you are coming from. My cube is probably among the lesser complex ones already, even compared just with other riptiders. And I want to keep it that way. That being said, if there is any slot in it where I am willing to make an exception, it's this one. Since this cube's origin a decade ago, I've went through SO many rakdos cards, much more than for any other guild, always ending up being unhappy with them in the (not so) long run.

 

[ravnic]

I am really struggling with the red three drops in my ravnica cube (only cards from the magic year 05/06, so og ravnica and 9th edition). I need some that can actually beat down to some degree, as three of thered guilds are rather aggressive. But I don't love my options. It's like the worst spot for creatures in the format.



Others aren't even worth mentioning. I feel like I basically have two options: I could add like 3× Goblin King, 3× Chariot and hope to give that subtheme to red (there are ~10 other Goblins) or play like a mix of Sandstalker and Prowler.

I also have one copy each of Flaring Flame-Kin and Orcish Artillery, but I don't think I'd want multiples of those.

 

[Zoss]

Looks like an aggro t3 play to me.

Realistically, maybe you just want to lean into the spells available, as they're so much better.