General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I find you don't actually want to run too many CC cards. I also think these play similar enough that you don't really need both. Harbinger is a bit more flexible, in that it can be cast as a 2UU card, but I personally think Merfolk Trickster is more fun, as you can ambush random evasive creatures or get in an attack (with an extra attacker!) by tapping down a defender eot. Harbinger's "tapped creature" requirement, meanwhile, means you are really more restricted in what you can bounce than you want to be, which makes it a lot less useful than it appears to be at first glance. Unlike the Trickster, for example, it gives you no way to push through damage. The only situation where it really outshines the Trickster is when you're being attacked by two creatures, one of which has to have 2 toughness and no evasion, and the other of which preferably has to have a sizeable cost to replay (and no vigilance), after a turn in which you had the luxury of having four mana open. That, obviously, isn't a situation you want to find yourself in, nor one all too common.
If you really want a four mana flash creature that bounces something, might I suggest?
I think this card is leagues more interesting than Harbinger of the Tides, not only because it lacks the "tapped creature" requirements, but also because it can "bounce" spells! Plus, it doesn't compete for the two drop slot with Merfolk Trickster
If you really want a four mana flash creature that bounces something, might I suggest?
I think this card is leagues more interesting than Harbinger of the Tides, not only because it lacks the "tapped creature" requirements, but also because it can "bounce" spells! Plus, it doesn't compete for the two drop slot with Merfolk Trickster
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Venser is really fun, in my opinion at least, unless you have a way to reliably bounce it every turn, much like Mystic Snake is a delightful cube card until you also run Crystal Shard...
I feel like fighting today. Now that life has sort of settled down a bit, I can now attempt to finish my cube. Help me with the following decision:
or (the 2/3 version)
Black/White archetype in my cube will be based on shamizy's awesomely in-depth post for B/W humans back in 2016: https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/archetype-spotlight-b-w-humans.1597/
Sin Collector is a Human and provides disruption (and personal nostalgia), while Knight adds additional damage when more threats to the board whilst making some use of the recursive options the archetype provides. Unsure to go either/or or both.
or (the 2/3 version)Black/White archetype in my cube will be based on shamizy's awesomely in-depth post for B/W humans back in 2016: https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/archetype-spotlight-b-w-humans.1597/
Sin Collector is a Human and provides disruption (and personal nostalgia), while Knight adds additional damage when more threats to the board whilst making some use of the recursive options the archetype provides. Unsure to go either/or or both.
I'd go with Corpse Knight. The big thing when it comes to that archetype is get in your chip damage whenever possible via evasion or drain triggers and to keep the pressure on your opponent. Triggering off ETB gives you some sweet plays you can make with things like Gravecrawler or Bloodsoaked Champion whenever you recast them from the grave. Aside from getting in with a bunch of 2 power creatures early to get that initial chunk of damage through, the gameplan becomes more like death by a thousand cuts off triggers.
If you want a similar effect to Sin Collector, Kitesail Freebooter has been a sweet card ever since I've added it to my cube. Disruption and evasion on one clean body and it'll probably get in there for 2-3 points of damage over the course of the game.
If you want a similar effect to Sin Collector, Kitesail Freebooter has been a sweet card ever since I've added it to my cube. Disruption and evasion on one clean body and it'll probably get in there for 2-3 points of damage over the course of the game.
You pretty much nailed all the thoughts I had about the card too (and from the author themself). Yeah, guess it was a no brainer after all.
I've been on the fence on Kitesail Freebooter - not because it's not strong, but because I'm using Brain Maggot as that form of disruption, in order to have options for Golgari to enable the Delirium archetype... which in practice does not appear to be working as well as I hoped. I'll probably end up running Kitesail Freebooter when it is all said and done though.
I've been on the fence on Kitesail Freebooter - not because it's not strong, but because I'm using Brain Maggot as that form of disruption, in order to have options for Golgari to enable the Delirium archetype... which in practice does not appear to be working as well as I hoped. I'll probably end up running Kitesail Freebooter when it is all said and done though.
Sin Collector, no doubt.
What I like about it is that it combines raw usefulness with synergy. He's cheap, easy to play and easy to put in a deck. You can play him in control, aggro, tempo or midrange and make your deck more interactive. In that sense, he provides quality of play to the cube. But he also has a handful of synergies going for it. He's a human, he works well in hatebears and other disruption-heavy decks. He, unlike Kitesail, works with Blink spells and can result in lasting card advantage if he picks up a Bonesplitter and trades. You can also Unearth him or return him with Reveillark for value.
Corpse Knight is much more straightfoward. He makes the Aristocrats deck better. He makes recursive creatures do Goblin Bombardment damage when they come into play and turns Token generators into creatures plus shock. I don't think there's much interest in that. He's good if you want a "signpost" BW creature for the archetype, but I think he's too blunt for my tastes.
What I like about it is that it combines raw usefulness with synergy. He's cheap, easy to play and easy to put in a deck. You can play him in control, aggro, tempo or midrange and make your deck more interactive. In that sense, he provides quality of play to the cube. But he also has a handful of synergies going for it. He's a human, he works well in hatebears and other disruption-heavy decks. He, unlike Kitesail, works with Blink spells and can result in lasting card advantage if he picks up a Bonesplitter and trades. You can also Unearth him or return him with Reveillark for value.
Corpse Knight is much more straightfoward. He makes the Aristocrats deck better. He makes recursive creatures do Goblin Bombardment damage when they come into play and turns Token generators into creatures plus shock. I don't think there's much interest in that. He's good if you want a "signpost" BW creature for the archetype, but I think he's too blunt for my tastes.
Sin Collector's discard is a permanent one? What the hell is wrong with me never having realized it up until now? Interesting card!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Don't listen to Brad, he's clearly biased!
I've missed with Sin Collector plenty of times, and a 2/1 for 3 isn't exactly a stellar body. In my experience, the card can be a sweet value play against the right deck, but at three mana, it's no Thoughtseize on wheels as far as wrecking people's day goes.
I never saw the appeal in 2-color 3-mana more narrow duress effect, even when the give me a piker to make up for it. Yes, it is probably a really nice 2 for 1 when it hits, but I already cut Duress for being bad against a few decks, so I don't think I wanna waste a gold slot for a 3-mana version of the effect, which will probably be played less often against a full grip.
Rank the following by power/flexibility:
Rank the following by power/flexibility:
Go For the Throat > Cast Down > Ultimate Price > Smother > Murderous Compulsion
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
1. Go for the Throat / Cast Down / Ultimate Price
The power level of all three of these is exactly the same, and their flexibility is highly dependent on the contents of the cube. Usually, Go for the Throat ends up being the most powerful one, because there's typically less must remove artifact creatures than there are legendary and multicolor ones. Cast Down and Ultimate Price are often comparable, though this, of course, depends a lot on the themes one runs in their cube. Let's have a look at the creatures in your Highball cube that you would want to kill but can't touch with each spell.
Go for the Throat (8): Combustible Gearhulk, Metallic Mimic, Steel Overseer, Porcelain Legionnaire, Scrap Trawler, Hollow One, Scuttling Doom Engine, Walking Ballista
Cast Down (15): Anafenza, Thalia, Sai, Zahid, Yawgmoth, Tasigur, Kari Zev, Alesha, Pia Nalaar, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Polukranos, Ghalta, Teysa Karlov, Roalesk, Sidisi.
Ultimate Price (14.33): Senate Guildmage, Soulherder, Psychatog, Hostage Taker, Bloodhall Priest, Knight of Autumn (in 4/3 mode), Pitiless Pontiff, Teysa Karlov, Deathrite Shaman, Underrealm Lich, Roalesk, Boros Challenger, Butcher of the Hoard, Sidisi, Siege Rhino.
Heh... Spot on
Note that I prefer Cast Down or Ultimate Price, precisely because there's a few more untouchable targets in the cube, but also because those targets are spread out across decks, whereas the must kill artifact creatures often end up in one or two decks, making the card a god tier kill spell against half the table, and decidedly more mediocre against one or two opponents. I don't like the variable effectiveness in that, for much of the same reasons that I don't like "protection from (color)" on creatures in draft.
4. Smother
I think this is a noticeable step down from the previous three. Still gets a lot of targets, but not at a great rate (on average you will spend 2 mana to kill something that's 2 mana). More importantly, it can't ever hit the most impactful targets on board. I prefer something like Disfigure or Last Gasp in the "kill small creatures" slot, since those can at least target high cmc creatures.
99. Murderous Complexion
This is just a bad card. Has a really, really hard time killing utility creatures, can't kill a blocker, and unless you have a discard outlet, you will take one painful hit before you can even use it.
The power level of all three of these is exactly the same, and their flexibility is highly dependent on the contents of the cube. Usually, Go for the Throat ends up being the most powerful one, because there's typically less must remove artifact creatures than there are legendary and multicolor ones. Cast Down and Ultimate Price are often comparable, though this, of course, depends a lot on the themes one runs in their cube. Let's have a look at the creatures in your Highball cube that you would want to kill but can't touch with each spell.
Go for the Throat (8): Combustible Gearhulk, Metallic Mimic, Steel Overseer, Porcelain Legionnaire, Scrap Trawler, Hollow One, Scuttling Doom Engine, Walking Ballista
Cast Down (15): Anafenza, Thalia, Sai, Zahid, Yawgmoth, Tasigur, Kari Zev, Alesha, Pia Nalaar, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Polukranos, Ghalta, Teysa Karlov, Roalesk, Sidisi.
Ultimate Price (14.33): Senate Guildmage, Soulherder, Psychatog, Hostage Taker, Bloodhall Priest, Knight of Autumn (in 4/3 mode), Pitiless Pontiff, Teysa Karlov, Deathrite Shaman, Underrealm Lich, Roalesk, Boros Challenger, Butcher of the Hoard, Sidisi, Siege Rhino.
Heh... Spot on
Note that I prefer Cast Down or Ultimate Price, precisely because there's a few more untouchable targets in the cube, but also because those targets are spread out across decks, whereas the must kill artifact creatures often end up in one or two decks, making the card a god tier kill spell against half the table, and decidedly more mediocre against one or two opponents. I don't like the variable effectiveness in that, for much of the same reasons that I don't like "protection from (color)" on creatures in draft.
4. Smother
I think this is a noticeable step down from the previous three. Still gets a lot of targets, but not at a great rate (on average you will spend 2 mana to kill something that's 2 mana). More importantly, it can't ever hit the most impactful targets on board. I prefer something like Disfigure or Last Gasp in the "kill small creatures" slot, since those can at least target high cmc creatures.
99. Murderous Complexion
This is just a bad card. Has a really, really hard time killing utility creatures, can't kill a blocker, and unless you have a discard outlet, you will take one painful hit before you can even use it.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Did you mean murderous cut?
I rank exactly like Ondezeeboot.
I run Cast Down, Go for the Throat and Murderous Cut as my black spot removals in my 360 cube and nothing else.
I like my spot removals to be somewhat of a rare thing in the cube.
I run Cast Down, Go for the Throat and Murderous Cut as my black spot removals in my 360 cube and nothing else.
I like my spot removals to be somewhat of a rare thing in the cube.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I run the following black targeted creature removal cards (at 450):
I actually cut Cut for the Throat and Ultimate Price, because they were a little bit too effective for my taste.
I actually cut Cut for the Throat and Ultimate Price, because they were a little bit too effective for my taste.
1. Go for the Throat / Cast Down / Ultimate Price
The power level of all three of these is exactly the same, and their flexibility is highly dependent on the contents of the cube. Usually, Go for the Throat ends up being the most powerful one, because there's typically less must remove artifact creatures than there are legendary and multicolor ones. Cast Down and Ultimate Price are often comparable, though this, of course, depends a lot on the themes one runs in their cube. Let's have a look at the creatures in your Highball cube that you would want to kill but can't touch with each spell.
Go for the Throat (8): Combustible Gearhulk, Metallic Mimic, Steel Overseer, Porcelain Legionnaire, Scrap Trawler, Hollow One, Scuttling Doom Engine, Walking Ballista
Cast Down (15): Anafenza, Thalia, Sai, Zahid, Yawgmoth, Tasigur, Kari Zev, Alesha, Pia Nalaar, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Polukranos, Ghalta, Teysa Karlov, Roalesk, Sidisi.
Ultimate Price (14.33): Senate Guildmage, Soulherder, Psychatog, Hostage Taker, Bloodhall Priest, Knight of Autumn (in 4/3 mode), Pitiless Pontiff, Teysa Karlov, Deathrite Shaman, Underrealm Lich, Roalesk, Boros Challenger, Butcher of the Hoard, Sidisi, Siege Rhino.
Heh... Spot on
Note that I prefer Cast Down or Ultimate Price, precisely because there's a few more untouchable targets in the cube, but also because those targets are spread out across decks, whereas the must kill artifact creatures often end up in one or two decks, making the card a god tier kill spell against half the table, and decidedly more mediocre against one or two opponents. I don't like the variable effectiveness in that, for much of the same reasons that I don't like "protection from (color)" on creatures in draft.
4. Smother
I think this is a noticeable step down from the previous three. Still gets a lot of targets, but not at a great rate (on average you will spend 2 mana to kill something that's 2 mana). More importantly, it can't ever hit the most impactful targets on board. I prefer something like Disfigure or Last Gasp in the "kill small creatures" slot, since those can at least target high cmc creatures.
99. Murderous Complexion
This is just a bad card. Has a really, really hard time killing utility creatures, can't kill a blocker, and unless you have a discard outlet, you will take one painful hit before you can even use it.
This post is really thoughtful and must have taken a fair bit of time to put together. Thank you very much, this gives me a lot to think about.
Twister. Not random and more interactable than an enchantment. Beautiful card design.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Not a fan of the 2/5 stat line, that's going to stonewall aggro pretty hard. I actually don't mind that the enchantment is less interactable either. My vote goes to Stormbind.