General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Keep both, cut a narrow card instead.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
If I have to pick I'll keep Spirit (mainly because working with creatures is such an upside) but both are fantastic
I am not sure if I should be playing both of these or just one. I like that they can both be mana sinks (more or less for Kytheon). I really dislike the heavy white commitment that Student asks for, but scaling one drop is strong.
Kytheon rewards attacking and a token strategy which I like.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I love the play patterns of Kytheon though, it's so much more fun to play for me than Student of Warfare. I had them both in my cube at one point and chose to cut the Student myself.
I think it depends on what you want to do with your cube, Kytheon is imho definitely an "expert card".
Same.
I got asked about this on stream yesterday. No experience with the latter.
They're somewhat similar, but bring different qualities:
Grapple is instant, which could matter for Gx flash for example. It's actually a grave tutor for mill decks, where it really shines.
Winding Way can be especially good early in the game, if you're in need for either lands or more creatures, but it also ensures you to draw more gas in topdeck mode.
I'm definitely going to run both, along Tracker's Instinct and other similar cards.
Grapple is instant, which could matter for Gx flash for example. It's actually a grave tutor for mill decks, where it really shines.
Winding Way can be especially good early in the game, if you're in need for either lands or more creatures, but it also ensures you to draw more gas in topdeck mode.
I'm definitely going to run both, along Tracker's Instinct and other similar cards.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I love Grapple with the Past a lot - it feels a lot more on-brand for green than a generic Regrowth and the instant speed gives it crucial flexibility (not just buying back something that died in combat on their turn but being able to respond to new developments). Winding Way is an excellent card too - I'd have Grapple for sure and make room for Winding Way if I can
..and that's exactly where I want my cube cards to be.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I wanna draw 2 cards though 
You're probably right...
You're probably right...
You take that back! Green mages have ways to make creatures better, ways to get access to creatures, ways to use creatures, ways to ramp out lands, and a touch of removal!
We can do spell-slinging too!
See? There's variety there.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Double grapple is probably better tho
If Mulch is good in your cube, Winding Way is a strictly better Mulch.
If Mulch doesn't cut it, then you probably aren't going to want Winding Way.
If Mulch doesn't cut it, then you probably aren't going to want Winding Way.
Uh isn't Winding Way much stronger than Grapple? Am I missing something? In a deck that's split between lands and creatures that's like a green Foresee. More realistically, with 17 land, 15 creatures, 8 non-creature spells, you get either 1.7 lands or 1.5 creatures, and the part that makes it good is that you can choose which, so if you're missing creatures you will get creatures, and likely more. Likewise, if you are missing lands, you will get lands, and likely more. Sure, it can miss, but the average case is way better.
Plus, you can do cute things with ToL manipulation like Brainstorm, scry, and Sylvan Library. Particularly, you can fire it when you know it's more likely to draw a lot.
Grapple with the Past seems really useful for self-mill decks because it can rebuy the key creatures that got milled, but in general I think Winding Way is better.
That's all in terms of power level, of course.
What I don't like about Winding Way is how it dissuades you from playing non-creature spells. I personally prefer formats where fewer creatures (say, 10-13) is ok to play for most decks.
Plus, you can do cute things with ToL manipulation like Brainstorm, scry, and Sylvan Library. Particularly, you can fire it when you know it's more likely to draw a lot.
Grapple with the Past seems really useful for self-mill decks because it can rebuy the key creatures that got milled, but in general I think Winding Way is better.
That's all in terms of power level, of course.
What I don't like about Winding Way is how it dissuades you from playing non-creature spells. I personally prefer formats where fewer creatures (say, 10-13) is ok to play for most decks.
Grapple has a few key advantages:
- You can use it as a Regrowth that mills 3 in a pinch.
- If you have a way to recast it, it synergizes with itself.
- It's easier to set up a situation where Grapple gives you maximum value.
- It asks way less from your deck to be good.
Grapple is better in almost all scenarios because it can bring back pre-existing cards. If you need quantity over quality there are already dedicated and better options like Loam. Agree with Chris that double grapple is probably a good choice for cubes that already really want the first grapple. If I'm going to diversify this particular slot, I'm leaning towards the following right now.
Gets critical enchantments and artifacts, can nab a planeswalker, and gains life for slower Gx decks. Doesn't self-mill, which leaves it more open for the Gx decks that aren't full GY-based (only land-recursion-based for example)
Gets critical enchantments and artifacts, can nab a planeswalker, and gains life for slower Gx decks. Doesn't self-mill, which leaves it more open for the Gx decks that aren't full GY-based (only land-recursion-based for example)
I bet Wizards have fallen in love with their new “if you can’t” mechanic so much that within a few years we will get the best Grapple the Past variant.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I disagree with this notion. For one, you don't need to be graveyard based for Grapple to be useful, just as running one Eternal Witness as your only graveyard interaction is perfectly fine. Also, you will typically not draw your whole deck, so milling or putting cards on the bottom are essentially the same thing if you don't run any other graveyard interaction. Really, the advantages Bond has over Grapple are "just" the wider range of possible targets and the incidental life gain, and you give up instant speed and the option to regrowth something that died earlier for that, as well as potential self-mill synergies.
I still like them both and fail to see why one should be reasonably stronger in a vacuum, since you're playing both for synergy/deckbuilding purposes in the first place.