General [GRN] Guilds of Ravnica

[yan]

the hexproof flyer with embalm and the clone with embalm in the same set amonkhet tho

 

[Aston]

I wonder who R&D is designing these hexproof cards for. I've never seen anything but dislike for big hexproof creatures on any MTG discussion channels I'm part of, but presumably there is, or they think there is, an audience out there for them.

 

[Chris Taylor]

People who think murder is the pinnacle of unfair magic

 

[Aston]

Who are those people though?

 

[Rowan_CB]

Children?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Probably a larger part of the magic buying public than we realize

 

[Velrun]

I have never heard anyone have that opinion As a man of science, I ask you this: Do you have a source for that statement?

 

[astraedm]

I have never heard anyone have that opinion As a man of science, I ask you this: Do you have a source for that statement?

The majority of people that we interact with by virtue of being invested enough to go online and talk about magic are going to understand that removal is part of the game. The part lots of people forget is that 90% of people that buy magic cards will never go to a local game store to play a sanctioned tournament (Full disclosure: I hear this everywhere and logically it makes sense, but I don't have an actual source handy). There are lots and lots of casual players that will complain about kill spells and god forbid countermagic. Take a look at some of the comments on the MTG Arena forums and reddit about control decks. That's only the tip of the iceberg, really.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Hard draw-go Control is worse on arena though since there are no match timers. A lot of play styles that would go to time in a normal event will take an hour a match on arena if someone is slowplaying.

 

[Velrun]

The majority of people that we interact with by virtue of being invested enough to go online and talk about magic are going to understand that removal is part of the game. The part lots of people forget is that 90% of people that buy magic cards will never go to a local game store to play a sanctioned tournament (Full disclosure: I hear this everywhere and logically it makes sense, but I don't have an actual source handy). There are lots and lots of casual players that will complain about kill spells and god forbid countermagic. Take a look at some of the comments on the MTG Arena forums and reddit about control decks. That's only the tip of the iceberg, really.

I know I shouldn’t have asked because I thought I would get an answer like this

Since I have never heard of that weird ‘Pinnacle of unfair Magic’ about Murder then I ask for a source. A link to a direct quote that represents ‘people’ or a statistic of some sort. This is no Gossip Girl fan site, bring facts

 

[safra]

Hexproof is kind of interesting because it forces control decks to be able to play some kind of creature combat game. and yet usually it's annoying...

these new guys! man oh man. didn't we end up solving DOM with Cold-Water Snapper + Arcane Flight? I like the trend of having a hexproof fattie for blue but if you can give it cheap evasion it screws with the actual depth of the format...

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I get that there's an audience out there who wants to enchant their hexproof fatties, but I'ld be happy for them to return to shroud. Poses the same problem to control decks without the troubles associated with hexproof. Alternatively, the Dominaria knights with hexproof from <color> were interesting enough and a lot less annoying.

 

[Velrun]

I get that there's an audience out there who wants to enchant their hexproof fatties, but I'ld be happy for them to return to shroud. Poses the same problem to control decks without the troubles associated with hexproof. Alternatively, the Dominaria knights with hexproof from <color> were interesting enough and a lot less annoying.

They were sort of a step backwards from where we have come. The ‘hexproof from..’ cards have the same problem as the five Mirrodin Swords: They hate on some opponents without hating on others and it is completely random and the players have no control over it.

A player’s color should not be the deciding factor in a game. That is almost as lame as losing/winning the coin flip.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

They were sort of a step backwards from where we have come. The ‘hexproof from..’ cards have the same problem as the five Mirrodin Swords: They hate on some opponents without hating on others and it is completely random and the players have no control over it.

A player’s color should not be the deciding factor in a game. That is almost as lame as losing/winning the coin flip.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle, because in my mind 'hexproof from <color>' is a (pretty significant) step forwards from 'protection from <color>'. Given that Wizards of the Coast wants to get across that certain colors are each other's enemies, 'hexproof from <color>' is a much more benign tool, because unlike creatures with 'protection from <color>', creatures with 'hexproof from <color>' can actually be interacted with, through combat. WotC has rightly recognized that permanent sources of protection from a color are unfun, they're in the process of discovering hexproof is just as bad (I hope), and their 'solution' to marry the two abilities, effectively watering down the most annoying features of both, is quite clever in my opinion.

Another problem in my mind with your comparison is that the five Mirrodin Swords actually give protection from two colors. Not only do they use a less interactive keyword, the chances of meeting an opponent with less or no outs to the protection ability is greatly increased as people will often draft two-color decks, and they may be entirely blanked (for example, I once played a blue-red deck where my opponent had Sword of Fire and Ice; how fun...), as well have a greater chance of being partly blanked.

 

[Velrun]

I am not talking power level. I am talking design. Wizards have gone further and further away from ‘hate towards only one color’ up until hexproof from ‘color’.

As have Riptiders. Being a Riptider does not only mean to power down a cube a bit or a lot in order to increase synergies, cross-color synergies and cross-theme synergies. It also means to minimize the amount of games that are determined by coin flip to see who plays first, land screw, matchup and games that are otherwise decided by non-player decisions.

At least that is my interpretation and why I like to Riptide my cube. Hexproof from ‘color’ goes directly against that philosophy because players can get screwed just for being a certain color.

 

[Aston]

I dislike Hexproof and Protection because they're non-interactive. Hexproof from X is at least a lot more interactive than both, and although I agree that having X be a colour is not very desirable, it's still better than flat Hexproof.

 

[Velrun]

Well yes if you only look at the percentage of cards that can target ‘hexproof from color’ cards and compare them to hexproof then of course there will be more cards that can target it But it does not seem fair nor fun that a certain random opponent can and another certain random opponent cannot interact with the card.

With Progenitus you know what you are getting. Nobody can touch it, neither of the 7 opponents in your draft. With ‘hexproof from color’ James, Marcus and Jordan can interact with your creature but Patrick, Anders, Jessica and Mohammed cannot.

 

[Rowan_CB]

Well yes if you only look at the percentage of cards that can target ‘hexproof from color’ cards and compare them to hexproof then of course there will be more cards that can target it But it does not seem fair nor fun that a certain random opponent can and another certain random opponent cannot interact with the card.

With Progenitus you know what you are getting. Nobody can touch it, neither of the 7 opponents in your draft. With ‘hexproof from color’ James, Marcus and Jordan can interact with your creature but Patrick, Anders, Jessica and Mohammed cannot.

I agree that this inequality makes the "hexproof from" cards still unsuitable for (my) cube. I think it's also true that those cards were much less frustrating in retail draft than regular hexproof creatures. There were very few mono-colored decks in Dominaria limited (as is the case with most limited formats), so often you had the ability to interact with one of those Knights via spell or ability even if you were in one of the colors they were hexproof from.

With that said, I think your overall point stands.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

With Progenitus you know what you are getting. Nobody can touch it, neither of the 7 opponents in your draft. With ‘hexproof from color’ James, Marcus and Jordan can interact with your creature but Patrick, Anders, Jessica and Mohammed cannot.

Again, that's not true. Or more specifically, that's a function of your cube. In my cube it's extremely unlikely that you end up in only one color, meaning you can have answers in your other color. In addition, even if all your spot removal is of the "wrong" color, you can still interact with a Knight of Grace through combat. If your cube is a cube that heavily slants towards monocolor decks, the colors are deep enough that four people can end up in the same color, and mono-spot removal is a thing in that color, then sure, "Patrick, Anders, Jessica and Mohammed cannot."

I don't believe for a minute that Wizards was (intentionally) moving away from 'hate towards only one color' either, they were consciously moving away from 'protection from <color>', but that's not the same as eliminating color hate altogether. I mean, we just had the mare cycle printed in M19 this summer (and that green one suuuuuuuucked for limited because it was effectively 'protection from black').

I mean, let's be clear, I still prefer shroud, but I much prefer 'hexproof from color' to both the nonsense of 'protection from color' and flat out 'hexproof'.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I think it’s probably not so much people being fans of hexproof as it is underdogs liking some high variance cards. Logically speaking, if there are 8 people in a pool and you are at the lower end of skill amongst those players, then if there was little to no variance you would basically be giving your money to the strongest player; just play casual at that point. Even a strong player has to fight the 1 in 8 odds. But if you have a shot at opening up and drawing some silver bullets that just strike your opponent like lightning, then that changes things.

 

[Velrun]

Thanks Rowan.

Will I give you that Ondezeeboot. As long as there is but a single card in any given deck (by the 7 opponents) then the card can be interacted with.

When talking about those two specific cards then this discussion almost doesn’t matter because they are so average to destroy with combat damage. For future reference; these are the two creatures under discussion:





Imagine a future set with some ‘hexproof from color’ creatures that are a lot more threatening than these. In that world I strongly believe that Player B should not lose a game or match just because Player A had that threat on the board against that color opponent.

Now imagine a creature (or any other kind of permanent) with ‘Hexproof from color X and Y’. Different power level but same logic.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think it’s probably not so much people being fans of hexproof as it is underdogs liking some high variance cards. Logically speaking, if there are 8 people in a pool and you are at the lower end of skill amongst those players, then if there was little to no variance you would basically be giving your money to the strongest player; just play casual at that point. Even a strong player has to fight the 1 in 8 odds. But if you have a shot at opening up and drawing some silver bullets that just strike your opponent like lightning, then that changes things.

Yeah pretty much. The smaller rat needs to win sometimes to keep on playing. Whether this is a reasonable way to go about it is a different matter though.

 

[Aston]

As it's somewhat relevant, here's my favourite Vine Mare video

This is a new player being taught how to play Magic in a promotional video for Wizards of the Coast. Timestamped to just before Vine Mare hits the battlefield, and the host and players gradually realise that the new player can't interact with it at all.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Oh no, timestamp doesn't work! What minute does this happen?

Edit: ~15:30!

Edit2: My goodness, off of a mana accelerator as well. Turn 3 against the monoblack deck. Are you having fun! Magic is fuuuuuuun! Vine Mare really is a shitty design, I don't know why the heck they thought giving it hexproof was a good idea.

 

[Velrun]

Yet another case of ‘you got screwed because you were that particular random color’. Something Wizards went away from until ‘hexproof from color’ creatures in Dominaria. Just poor design.

Give it unblockable and make sure to give it other downsides/increase mana cost so it feels fair. Like flying and not ‘flying against red decks’ Or trample and not trample against blue creatures