General In search of ideas

[Dom Harvey]

Aggro doesn't seem like something you can dial back only partially to me, unless it's heavily overpowered or takes up a very large number of slots in your Cube. If you don't commit to it then nobody will want to draft it, and then Firedrinker Satyr and friends will be slumming it together in sideboards and at the end of packs.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, I'm more referring to the amount of space it eats up right now, along with your earlier comment about aggro being poison principle-y, which I agree with. It sucks as a control player to table packs full of Dryad Militants and Gravecrawlers, when what you need is another signet, draw smoother, or cheap removal spell.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, I often feel like Calvin and myself are the only ones remotely interested in drafting aggro in my cube, over the last year and a half. Most of the other twenty odd players who've popped in for cube here and there would not touch Stromkirk Noble with a ten-foot pole. But wave a Chameleon Colossus, Nekrataal, or Cloudgoat Ranger in front of their eyes, and watch them drool over it...

This whole thread is making me wonder if I should dial back aggro support in my own cube.

One thing that you could try that worked for me pretty well is to run some Timmy or Johnny cards that tie in with the aggro cards you want people to use.

For example, in my cube I run angelic overseer, which is the type of exciting midrange bomb that sucks in those more casual players. It also pushes those players towards the low CC white human cards and specifically champion of the parish: in interesting build around capable of providing early pressure and which grows into a midgame threat. I actually had it happen this weekend where a player drafted a W/B humans deck for the first time, because of overseer. He let the champions lap, but afterwords I mentined how cool it would have been to see him hitting for five on turn three withgather the townsfolk, and you could see the light bulb go on over his head.

My ultimate hope is that he will start to see the other aggro cards as design space to explore: delver is a human and can flip off of gather the townsfolk, reckless waif is a human, firefist striker is a human, and those small human creatures would benefit from hellrider and so forth or turn on a sweet tajic, blade of the legion.

The idea is just to make the aggro cards less poisonous and a more holistic part of the cube.

 

[CML]

Yeah, I'm more referring to the amount of space it eats up right now, along with your earlier comment about aggro being poison principle-y, which I agree with. It sucks as a control player to table packs full of Dryad Militants and Gravecrawlers, when what you need is another signet, draw smoother, or cheap removal spell.

no sympathy for anyone who expects a signet to wheel.

compared to constructed, draft is an environment where aggro is intrinsically underpowered. curve and fixing is the issue, and we've written about this extensively in how the way grim mongo MTS cubes resolve the power discrepancy between Jackal Pup and Jace, the Mind Sculptor is by making the control decks do nothing from bad mana or high curve some games. since we want to increase the amoutn of interaction and reduce the incidence of non-games, we buff aggro by lowering the curve and switching fixers (from signets to fetch / shock, i.e.) and buff control by giving it the tools it needs to interact (innocent blood, brainstorm, rough // tumble, wrath of god, or whatever.)

that being said, i have felt the poisonous nature of aggro cards when i doubled up on Goblin Guide and cards like it. cutting aggro from a draft environment is a completely stupid idea. the zoo-type decks are fun and difficult to draft and, even if aggro vs. hardcore control isn't of great interest, it's way better than it is in regular cubes, aggro mirrors and aggro vs midrange are fun, etc. yet really the roshambo model is something i only hear from people who don't play magic. i am pretty sure sealed would suffer similarly, i think it's worth a try though. the danger would be having "midrange wars" with boring decks as often happens in Winston draft or other alternative draft formats, and the upside would be something cool like RGD draft

 

[Dom Harvey]

Is aggro more fun than stuff you can do when you're not packing a third of the slots (at a conservative estimate) with cards that only truly belong in aggro?

 

[Lucre]

This is more-or-less what I did. I got rid of the roshambo approach and focused on supporting credible early pressure that could maintain relevance into the mid-game. That way the format still has a sense of urgency in developing early board presence, but you don't have the super narrow hyper aggro decks that I feel make for bad magic (and would not work in my format anyway).

I don't really consider most thoughtful cubes to be too guilty of roshambo dynamics, the go big vs go under vs play defensive is much more evident in more classic cube making. The philosophy of red fun police decks evolved through very midranged formats where aggro-capable creatures were much less plentiful, but still a deck that was consistently pressuring was still carving a big chunk out of the idiotic inbred metagames of niche decks, midranged and controlish decks.

I think one thing that is important is making sure that you have enough aggro-capable creatures that other decks might find interesting. Another way to go about this is engineering a format where you might want that kird ape because it blocks the hell out of other cheap creatures very well.

Just my input. Midranged formats can work, look at Ravnica Guildpact Dissension. Just also remember that aggressive RG and Jund decks would often crop up in the cracks and just sweep tables because nature finds away when metagames get that stilted and silly. It's not an awful idea, I just feel like somewhere folks are missing some perspective. We are talking basically about going back to the dragon cube days where folks like me and Chris Taylor started cubing. Sure we didn't really name the archetypes as well as we do now but I can recognize the similarities.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

We are talking basically about going back to the dragon cube days where folks like me and Chris Taylor started cubing. Sure we didn't really name the archetypes as well as we do now but I can recognize the similarities.

I don't think anyone is really advocating for that, I'm certaintly not. I just don't like poisonous aggro decks and don't encourage them. I want my early aggressive creatures as a means to avoid earlier iterations of my cube that were dominated by horrible games of dragon magic.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

One effect of taking out almost all of the mana ramping from my cube (elves and wild growths excepted, I think cultivate might be another casualty) is that aggro decks that need to win before control hits 6 mana actually have 6-8 turns to do that. So, even though I do support blisteringly fast aggro decks, aggressive decks in my cube can opt to a more moderate approach, using engine cards, tricks and midrange 4-5 drops. The results of this were twofold:

First, the aggro dudes go in more decks because more decks can angle at an aggressive approach.

Second, less aggro dudes overall are needed because aggro decks can make use of a lot of the mid-sized cards.

 

[ColonelSanders]

something that I've already implemented in my cube is moving all board wipes to 6+ mana slots and isolating mana ramp to green. I've found this takes a little pressure off of aggro decks (which in my cube are probably less 1 drop heavy than in most cube lists). This has allowed for some interesting cards to be included that probably wouldn't make the cut in lists with 4 mana board wipes and artifact mana.

That being said, after reading through this thread, I'm becoming more interested in cutting traditional weenie strategies. Between my friend's disinterest and the huge number of card slots required to support aggro in sealed, I feel like aggro isn't really pulling it's weight in my cube environment. However, I think the biggest problem with cutting aggro is making sure colors like red, white, and black all remain viable as central colors instead of simply providing removal and utility. Additionally, I would need to ensure that the inevitable flood of midrange decks feel distinctly different in their play styles.

 

[Lucre]

wow six mana board wipes usually feel like total concessions to me when I am comfortable enough with a core of removal but acknowledge that I need more.

I think it's more important to make your early turns (and draft picks that relate to them) way more interesting. Weenie decks are sorely lacking for interest in many environments, but some exceptions include UG tempo decks and implementations of the Bx graveyard aggro shell. Make your weenies feel interactive and like they play well with other colours and people will draft them. It's also super important to make sure you aren't really saturating your colours with cards only aggro decks want. There are tonnes of creatures I'd be happy to cram into a control deck if need be or love to have in midranged or value decks.

Look to your loyal cathars and blade splicers, these are cards that people see past aggro regarding. Even wasteland and tithe can fit this bill. I like to advocate things like stoneforge with mediocre equipment, even doubling up on it. Find ways to add interest to aggro and help people do cool things with it and draft it in multicoloured decks.

 

[Jason Waddell]

To be fair CML Goblin Guide is one of the most narrow aggro cards out there. Perhaps there's an article in this space.

 

[GenericZero]

To be fair CML Goblin Guide is one of the most narrow aggro cards out there. Perhaps there's an article in this space.

Write us an article on how best to identify good, flexible aggro dudelettes vs bad dudelettes and make it a riptidelab exclusive!

(but don't you dare shit on Spikeshot Elder)

 

[ahadabans]

I'll toss my 2 cents in this discussion as I find it very interesting.

I think there are a lot of ways to solve for a meta that is diverse, interesting and balanced. One core debate that comes up often is the importance of aggro to a meta. While I agree with the prevailing thought that you want aggressive decks to keep the control decks honest (at a high level), how you go about doing that I think is not black and white.

One of the points I'm constantly highlighting is the change in the game itself post NWO (not everyone will agree but this is my take on it). The biggest part of that IMO is the increase in power level of your top end creatures (I'll leave the walker discussion out of this). Grave Titan ends games against aggressive decks in short order. Where as old school finishers like Kokusho do not really end the game by themselves (you can't block and attack with it for example). Aggressive decks can still kamikaze their way through that card (even kill it though that option has a fog-like effect). Yes, it's a losing scenario long term but you can do it for a time and not lose the game outright. Finishers like the Titans stabilize the board while also allowing the control player to use them aggressively. They are simply much more game altering.

Because of that, modern magic has more of an urgency I feel. Aggressive decks simply need to win faster because the game essentially ends for them at 6 mana. Where back in original Ravnica (the set I played the most), I don't really think that was true. You were certainly losing as an aggressive deck if the control/midrange player hit 6 mana - you didn't want to be there - but the game wasn't over. So for me personally, I prefer that "softer" meta to the modern game and as such that is how I try to gear my cube. By muting the control/midrange options at the top end I do not need hyper aggro to be a thing in order for aggressive decks to be viable. In fact, because I play a lot of multi-player, I really need my aggro decks to have options if the "win now" option doesn't pan out. Decks that vomit their hands on the table in 3 turns really suck in most multi-player settings.

Someone mentioned making aggro more of an "aggro/control" arch type and I'm really in favor of that personally. I'm not sure I have successfully done that in my cube, but it would be the ideal scenario - where essentially I still have aggressive decks that can put pressure early but don't just roll over once the game goes past turn 5. At the same time, if someone loves to play hyper fast "go for broke" type decks, I don't mind trying to support that as long as it doesn't involve allocating 100 cards of my cube to make it draftable (especially since most guys I play with do not tend to make those kinds of decks anyway).

 

[Dom Harvey]

If you want to retain 'aggro' in some form, I suggest looking at aggro-combo decks. They're a lot more fulfilling to draft/play, at least IMO, and they're no less insular than normal aggro decks. Isamaru might 'seem' like a versatile card, but it really isn't.

 

[Eric Chan]

Even though it was kind of a linear and poison principle-y mechanic, I enjoyed how rebels played out in Modern Masters. Kind of an aggro-leaning deck, but with card advantage engines built in, and multiple angles of attack. I don't know how you could recreate this for cube, though, without liberal use of errata and custom cards.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I find the W/X aura aggro decks pretty interesting. Its weird how the same exact deck can, depending on the hand can function as an all-in-aggro deck, a disruptive aggro deck or a combo deck.

I mean, sometimes you draw three auras and your four drop and have to mull, but that's life.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Even though it was kind of a linear and poison principle-y mechanic, I enjoyed how rebels played out in Modern Masters. Kind of an aggro-leaning deck, but with card advantage engines built in, and multiple angles of attack. I don't know how you could recreate this for cube, though, without liberal use of errata and custom cards.

I tinkered with the idea of a cubewide errata whereby after you draft you could assign creature types to N cards so that certain tribal cards worked better(mostly rebels and Kalastria Highborn), but it got binned. If I were to include rebels, I'd do something like that whereby if you drafted a rebel searcher you could name 4 creatures as rebels. You would show this to your opponent before your match and they would declare one a traitor, vetoing it. I like this formulation to avoid the silver bullet situation and to make matches a little more dynamic.

 

[anotak]

a custom conspiracy could do that

 

[ColonelSanders]

I like the idea of less oppressive finishers that don't instantly shut aggro decks out of the cube at 6 mana. The idea of a combo/aggro or synergy reliant aggro deck also seems like it might help find a balance between supporting weenie strategies and removing aggro.

However, I don't know what cards would support such a deck. The gravecrawler/bloodghast sacrifice deck seems like a good candidate. W/G aura's might be interesting, but I don't want it to become W/G boggles (which means it would still be pretty vulnerable to removal). R/W tokens might be ok. It could synergize with the sacrifice decks, work well with equipment, and use cards like furystoke giant, burn at the stake, and assemble the legion to punch through board stalls.

Any other ideas for deck shells that might qualify as interesting aggro decks?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Over here, we have a bunch of white human shells revolving around champion of the parish, angelic overseer, gather the townsfolk, and (now being tested) mentor of the meek. Those decks tend to be very good at transitioning from an aggressive role to a more midrange or controlling role depending on the game state.

We also have red shells revolving around counter vampires like stromkirk noble and a disruption package of cards like silent departure, stingscourger, or mesmeric fiend. They can dish out a lot of early damage and then transition into the midgame with credible midrange threats already on the board.

Good equipment or bestow creatures can also help keep those decks stay relevant into the midgame.


As an fyi, I have a very synergy focused cube, and if you go in that direction you might have to rethink the number of your board sweepers as they just ruin those kinds of developed boards.

Great discussion btw

 

[FlowerSunRain]

6 mana finishers that don't instantly shut out aggro decks, but put the game away quick:

Necropolis Reagent, Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Reaper of the Abyss, Aetherling, Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Bestow Creatures are amazing attacking decks of all stripes. If you don't want to go in on aura aggro all the way, get all of the credible bestow creatures in anyway for a light version of the deck. FYI black has the best bestow selection, which makes an interesting angle that the color doesn't usually explore. Works great with the alternate direction of enchantress/constellation.

Double Strike aggro stays relevant mid game and can act like a combo deck with the right hand.

 

[Eric Chan]

I find the W/X aura aggro decks pretty interesting. Its weird how the same exact deck can, depending on the hand can function as an all-in-aggro deck, a disruptive aggro deck or a combo deck.

Would you have a sample decklist of one of these W/x aura decks, FSR? It sounds fascinating to me, but I can't even begin to picture what a typical build of this archetype looks like.

+1 for Aetherling. It doesn't do a whole lot in a losing situation against aggro, but what it does provide is a hammer to crack clogged board stalls wide open.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Another great six mana finisher:

 

[FlowerSunRain]

You can find a W/R/G one in the 3-0 thread and a W/U one in my cube thread. The G/B hasn't come together yet in a successful fashion, but I have faith.

 

[ahadabans]

Another great six mana finisher:
skeletal vampire

Does this guy really stand up in today's world of pushed creatures? I love Batman but I keep wanting to take him out because against the other options he seems so underpowered these days (even in my semi-retro cube).

How are you using (abusing) this guy? Clearly blink themes are good, but otherwise I'm just not sure he is worth 6 mana (anymore).