Innistrad Themed Cube: 360 Unpowered

Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, generally I am trying to encourage everyone to play sim city magic, that was part of why I had to get rid of most of the mass removal

hmmm...according to my notes, here are the black themes and subthemes I have:

BW: nickle/dime control: tokens.*
BG: Dredge (includes spider spawning/worm harvest/midrange)
UB: tempo: mill control
BR: sacrifice tempo: vampires

Of those combinations, red and white seem to do the best job of creature buffing. I do seem to be a bit light on ways to buff creatures in green and black. Not sure how I feel about that--they seem a bit equipement dependent to me. Blue dosen't buff creatures, which I am fine with.

*There are some issues with this color combination since white is very human themed, while black is very zombie and vampire themed.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So, things are wraping up. I'm really pleased with how everything is running, and this will probably be the last big update. Right now I am just looking for weak spots to replace with planeswalkers. This is where the last couple weeks have brought us. Somewhat odd looking changes: no deck needs FOWs card advantage due to flashback cards, and no aggro deck needs bonesplitter. Those deck are very strong, and I want there to be a tempo cost to equip. Also, mentor of the meek is an insane card.

The moonmist is kind of random, but I have no idea what to do with that slot (go green) and my players were actually complaining about a lack of fog effects so its in there. It will probably become innistrad garrick.

Out:




in


 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That...is an interesting card. I missed it in the spoilers. I'm not even sure how to evaluate it as its like a reverse armored skaab, which I just added a second copy of. Traditionally, a card like that I would evaluate from that perspective, as a defensive blocker putting flashback cards into the yard for a controllish U/G or U/B deck.

However, I have no idea how it would play out over here, whether the control decks would use it as a blocker and psudo removal; or whether the aggressive decks would be interested in it due to its 3 power and ability to stock their graveyard, something they need to do to stay relevant in the late game. At 3CC it is coming a bit late in the game for an aggressive player but that might be all right. It also recurs gravecrawler, which tends to cross the aggro/control line all the time, and I could cut pawn of ulamog for it. Seems like it could be a good idea.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That card is a little hard for me to assess what its playability would be. I think its probably too much mana between the {2} and {1} to activate it thought. On the other hand, its a source of dig in a format where that is a big deal, so it might be reasonable.

I might as well take this moment to provide an update:

Out for a while





In for a while




Tweaks for this Week

Out:





In:





Changes on the Horizon

Out





In




Slowly bringing back some of the ramp, but moving it around in colors and having it tied to creatures with aggressive stats.
 
B

Balkmeister

Hi, love your cube and am trying to find the cards to put it together myself. If you don't mind i have a few questions.
  1. The Out-In lists here does not entirely seem to match what you have in the cube tutor list (e.g adarkar valkyrie was marked as out a few posts back but is still in the list). Is the cube tutor list accurate?
  2. How about Mesmeric Orb instead of one of the Ghoulcaller's bells?
  3. What would you take out for Snapcaster if you had it?
  4. How about taking out the Kozilek's predator and instead run Vital splicer? They are both green 3/3s that generate more than one creature when they enter the battlefield. Sure the predator ramps a bit but the splicer gives the option of regeneration and also have a relevant creature type.
  5. I see that you have run both Hedron crab and Dakra mystic in the cube and am a bit surprised you selected the crab when the mystic seems to work so well with the "top of library" theme, mill when needed and also can act as card draw. Is it just to expensive due to the activation cost?
  6. Have you considered Gyre sage over tinder wall? They both ramp for mana but the sage actually gives you a usefull creature that does more than just sack for 2 mana.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Hey, thanks! Glad you are enjoying it, I will attempt to answer your questions:

1. The out-in list should be pretty accurate. I originally ran two adarkar valkyrie, but cut one, which is why there is still one on the list. Sometimes I will make changes to the cube, and then update here in batches. I think there are three changes that haven't been reflected in this thread: I added a merfolk looter, hada spy patrol, and morgue theft; cutting civilized scholar, and neurok invisimancer for curve reasons. I also cut phyrexian reclamation for the morgue theft. I really like phyrexian reclamation, but morgue theftis just an effect more in demand by the self-mill decks. If there is anything else I’m missing, let me know, and I will try to clarify.

2. Mesmeric Orb might be a good idea, simply because it provides a good build around. The reason I like the bells is that they give you control over exactly when you mill, so you can get all sorts of interesting cat and mouse interactions between it and the TOL tutors and bounce.

3. Right now I would cut kira. I had originally put her in because I thought the spells matter decks needed the help due to their low creature count, but they really don't.

4. That would probably be fine. The reason I run Kozilek's predator is mostly because it works well with pod, but I don't love the card. Splicer looks like it could fill a similar role.

5. Yeah, I really wanted mystic to work due to the TOL themes, but the activation cost was a problem. If you are playing against anyone that can exert any amount of pressure, its an issue. This is also part of the reason why I have x2 bells, rather than a mystic/bell split, which I think I would prefer in the abstract.

6. The sage is an interesting idea, and maybe I should be running it. The thing with tinder wall is that it is so good at bricking or delaying an early aggro rush. It kind of puts the pressure on champion decks to have a specific draw, it shuts down stromkirk noble, and it blanks gravecrawler. My list normally has you waiting until turn 3 to get out good blockers, and tinderwall kind of breaks that rule for its spot on the curve. Sage is worse at all of those things on the draw, but is otherwise a more interesting card. I think that would be a meta call, based on how your aggro decks are performing.
 
B

Balkmeister

Regarding Kozilek's predator and pod interaction: Doesnt the splicer work even better with pod? With the predator you get a 3/3 and have to start again from 0 if you want to keep poding and don't feel like loosing the 3/3. If you have the splicer instead you can pod away the 1/1 for a 5 drop and still have a 3/3 left behind.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, i've never been a big fan of predator in general, I feel that the two 0/1s and 3/3 body make attacking kind of miserable. Sometimes the pod decks can kind of "go off" with it, where they pay life on pod, pod up the predator, and than can sequence out something else using the mana from the spawn.

I think I would probably enjoy vital splicer more overall though.
 
B

Balkmeister

Ok, got most of the cube together and will proxy the rest. After looking over the list a few times i found some possible replacements that i think will fit nicely

Treacherous urge or Morgue Theft -> Stitch Together
The urge seem to be very hit or miss, either they have a bomb they have not been able to play yet or they have emptied their hand of creatures and 5 mana is a bit too much to find out. How have the urge played for you guys?
Alternatevily you could replace morgue theft to keep the reanimation effects constant if you replace ink eyes as suggested below.

Tajic, Blade of the Legion -> Firemane Angel
I never really liked tajic, all he is is a big beater. The angel has graveyard interaction in a color combination not know for having lots of them. A bit more pricey sure but it doesn't require suiciding 2 more dudes to be good. Sure the angel isn't a human but angels work well in INN block as well. =)

Ink-Eyes -> Champion of stray souls
Though neither have relevant creature types the champion feels more thematic. Also turning a bunch of 1/1 tokens into real creatures seems powerful, expensive but powerful. In addition to all this the champion ties in nicely with the Top of library theme.

 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Those seem fine for the most part.

I would keep morgue theft in though and cut the urge for stitch together. Treacherous urge is a card my players really love because of the memorable games that it can result in, but its not essential to the list. Morgue theft actually does play an important function though in the self-mill decks, and I feel strongly about its inclusion.

Firemane angel I have some reservations about. While Tajic has his issues, and I could see replacing him on the basis of not being interesting enough, what he does do is provide another 4 drop for a G/R/w/ pod deck, act as an incentive card for R/W wide aggro, and is another human for the humans deck.

I'm not sure firemane angel is the card to replace him though. In those R/W decks, six mana has proven to be quite a lot, and the 10 mana to return to the battlefield is probably never going to happen. There is also nothing that synergizes with the 1 life a turn.

Ink eyes has always been kind of a fringe card over here, and i'm not sure why that is, but I am open to making swaps for him and champion seems like a fine suggestion. Its a very slow card, but I think the deck that it will go in will be ok with that, and it might turn into a build around on its own merit.

I also wanted to let you know that right now death or glory is on the chopping block. Its the only card left that I can't really rationalize its place on the list. Any ideas on what to replace it with?

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I'm looking forward to comparing metas. What kind of drafts are you planning on doing? We've done 1 v 1, multiplayer, and 2 headed giant over here. If you are planning on doing 2 headed giant, I think you probably want to cut terminus, as it really slows the games down if it shows up in the draft.

Also, are you the kirblix guy thats been drafting on my cubetutor page? I wanted to say thanks if you were. If not, and you have an existing cube tutor list, link to it and I will do a few drafts of it. I like to do that as a thank you to people that show attention to my list.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
If you feel strongly about having to suicide guys to get battalion triggers, consider this:



the way the rules work currently you can activate the ability after combat damage has been dealt (Same as you can with condemn), making this a combination dolmen gate and serra's blessing for half the mana
Alternativly, you could try this instead of Tajic:


Perhaps a little out of place, but the 7 power, 4 mana and hard to remove are all there. goblin war drums may be better than the ability to swing as a 2/2, depending.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thanks :) In the interest of full disclosure though, i've been toying with the idea of putting together laz's sweet scuttle cube for a while now.

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I would suggest playing the list as close to the original as possible, and than adjust to your player's tastes from there. That gives you a chance to see how everything performs, and if you have any questions it will be easier for me to answer.

I tend to be very slow in making changes, because I want to give the meta time to adapt. Sometimes I find its tricky to tell whether a card really dosen't deserve its slot on the list, is not being evaluated correctly by the players, or that maybe its beneficial for it to be something that wheels but fills a needed niche. At this point, I feel strongly that death or glory is just a blank spot in the list, and should be replaced. My other likely swap in the near future is melancholy for stab wound. I want that slot to be sort of a black pacifism that goes late, but melancholy hasn't been popular, but i've heard a lot of good things about stab wound being a fun card.

Fettergeist is also on my watch list, as I feel a second stitched drake makes a lot more sense, though geist is fine. I also suspect I don't need two pods at this point, but i'm miles away from making that cut.

Iroas looks reasonable on paper. Is it a fun card to play against though?

Some other things I was thinking of for the death or glory slot, were angel of flight alabaster and replace dictate of heliodwith celestial crusader. Theres a lot of loose (and very powerful) spirits spread across the cube, and angel seems like a good incidental spirit lord. Another thing I could do is run triplicate spirits with maybe a pride of the clouds. Also, the new fight card from Khans will eventually replace hunt the weak, the one where the guy is punching a bear.

 
B

Balkmeister

Nice to get such fast response to my suggestions =)
I have to admit that part of the reason i suggested the angel was to try and get a bit of angel subtheme in the cube. Not that there are many cards that synergize with it but perhaps you could run defy death instead of miraculous recovery, if only for thematic reasons.
Have you considered Serra Avenger?
One problem with white though is that it's almost all creatures, a few buffs and removal, Not many other kinds of effects in there. One wierd suggestion if you are after strange game states is to replace death or glory with mirrorweave, seems like it could be a good finisher for tokens.
Or perhaps even Jabari's Influence or Martyr's bond, Now those are a break from the usual, run of the mill white effects. =)
I Have also been eyeing the spirit theme and trying to find ways of getting more spirits and "spirits matter" cards in there. One card that caught my eye was twilight drover but it may just be too slow.
Regarding the play style i was considering for the cube i was thinking of running standard, 6-8 man drafts with 1-1 matches afterwards.
 
B

Balkmeister

AlsoEric, who said anything about proxying? ;)
I just dropped like $300 to get the cards i was missing to complete this cube (other then the fetches, seems stupid to get them with khans just around the corner)
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Defy death looks good. Over here, miraculous recovery is something people are excited to play, so I feel like I would have to wait to make that change. Jabari's influence looks sweet, and I had no idea that card existed. Twilight drover looks too slow. Mirrorweave you would have to sell me more on. ;)

Martyr's bond looks interesting as a build around, but I have some reservations both about the high CC, and also that it mimics grave pact a little bit too much i.m.o cards like that can get pretty unfun when combined with something like gravecrawler.

Now, serra avenger is an interesting card. I used to run it in the old cube, many moons ago, but cut it due to the {W}{W}. I think I was too quick to cut the card though: it is an undercosted 4 drop that rewards good sequencing. That being said, I don't think the list really wants it right now. I think it wants something thematically stronger, and more interesting, than just an undercosted flyer.

What I kind of want to do, is encourage a U/W flyers list. Right now, the pieces are there, but the U/R delver version of the deck, I think, is much more powerful. Thats because red offers so many more powerful build arounds: young pyromancer, charmbreaker devils, guttersnipe, and burning vengeance.

The only real incentive card I have for a strong U/W list is geist of saint traft. I don't want to run drogskol captain, because hes a bit too narrow. Angel of flight alabaster does a lot of things for a geist deck, but can also get back karmic guide, ghost council of orzhova, dungeon geists, mindshrieker, fettergeist, and kira, great glass-spinner. The distribution of spirit cards, really pushes towards a U/W spirit flyers deck and she is basically a U/W card here. The main problem with angel though, is that she is overcosted on her own.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That actually looks reasonable, though i'm not sure its strong enough to make its way into a competitive gold slot. It does make me wish there were more cards like mul daya channelers, that change function depending on what card is TOL.

I think angel of flight alabaster is probably the best spirit lord. Herald of war was the only "angel lord" I could find. Nostalgia is making me want to run windreaver.

I think I am going to take small steps, and run angel, and see where it goes from there.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I had considered spirit en-dal a while ago, the problem is that forecast isn't something you can really interact with, and I'm not sure I want games ending that way.

ah, tallowisp, I don't think I have quite enough auras to be able to run that, though I do love the flavor text.
 
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