Innistrad Themed Cube: 360 Unpowered

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, I think its possible to set some more themes. These are the ones I've toyed with for B/W:

1) B/W humans: while xathrid necromancer is in the cube, there arn't a lot of humans card, and black is already supporting zombies and vampires, making space an issue.
2) B/W life drain: supported by cards like scholar, extort cards, and ghost council. I think the problem with this deck is that it tends to be very attrition and removal focused, and there is just no really exciting control cards in the cube right now to support it.
3) B/W spirits: This was part of why I was toying with the idea of kokusho, the evening star. Ghost council is the most sucessful of the B/W cards in the list, and kokusho would give help create a density of powerful B/W spirits for angel to abuse. The problem is that the deck dosen't really come together unless angel shows up in the draft, so it dosen't really feel like a fully realized theme.
4) B/W zombies: supported by necromancer's covenant, the problem here, of course, is that white has no zombies.

Ghost council has been really good: you can combine him with the white token makers to powerful effect, especially since he is a very difficult to deal with threat in this format, provided he has food. The other big card is unburial rites, of course, which a lot of decks want. Pontiff was in there because I wanted another human to encourage B/W humans, but he hasn't really been an incentive card.

I do think that a B/W sacrifice humans deck is possible, using skirsdag flayer, falkenrath noble, and blood artist in conjunction with gather the townsfolk. The new card drawing human from Khans would be another incentive card.

Another possibility, is to push more towards control, with cards like culling sun, or merciless eviction. I'm less excited about that though, still pretty wary of sweepers.

Porcelain Legionnaire is an interesting card. I've gone back and forth with having it listed as a white card or an artifact, but neither one really feels right to me. It shows up a lot in lists that run white, and when it dosen't, its usually in some control deck. Its also a card the humans deck wants, because those decks want a certain density of non-humans, due to stromkirk noble.

I like Atheros, but would want a theme in B/W to fit it into before adding it. I think that was a mistake I made with my other B/W attempts: not really thinking out clearly how I wanted to structure my incentive cards.

I know what you mean about combat tricks; I think I just generally don't think about them, as they seem incidental to a lot of the core interactions and themes I want to encourage. I think its one of those, like planeswalkers, that i've been reluctant to focus on, until I can get a better measure of the format. I'm open to suggestions though.
 
After trying to make the WB drain theme work but failing due to all the cards beeing either too weak or grossly over costed I agree that the BW humans theme is probably our best bet. We get alot of pieces free from the Wx human deck and adding a little black twist shouldn't be that hard. How about this:

Necromancer's Covenant -> athreos, god of passage - Great for sacrifice decks
Pillory of the sleepless-> Tidehollow Sculler - To keep the Brain maggot effect and the zombie count up despite the changes below.

Brain Maggot -> Skirsdag Flayer - Same cc and body but a good build around for the human deck
1 gravecrawler-> bloodsoaked champion - Recursive sacrifice fodder feels like something that humans could use as well.
 
Also: Bloodsoaked Champion works really well with champion of the parish
Honestly, if you can sneak in a loyal cathar, with bloodsoaked champion and xathrid necromancer, is a zombie/human sacrifice deck too far fetched? You might have to force things a little bit and it might not end up good, but if you in worst case double up on ie bloodsoaked you could probably have enough support to draft a cross-over tribal deck.
Carrion Feeder
Bloodsoaked Champion
Champion of the Parish
Gravecrawler
Gather the Townsfolk
Blood Artist
Loyal Cathar
Xathrid Necromancer
Grim Haruspex
Curse of Shallow Graves
Is it possible?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
These are a lot of really good ideas to mull over. The thing I really like here, is that we seem to be toying around with both a theme and a sub theme: B/W humans, and B/W sacrifice, which seems to bleed together, but also bumps up against the vampire and zombie tribes.

I'm going to have to think about this a bit more, but I do think that Grim Haruspex, whatever happens, should replace Dusk Urchins. Dusk Urchins was put in there originally as a control card, that had incidental overlap with the sacrifice theme, but Grim seems to do the job better. Both are going to be worth at least a card, both block at the same mana point (with the same P/T), but grim supports both sacrifice and humans themes. I also love the idea of cutting one gravecrawer for a bloodsoaked champion, and also running the loyal cathar, as those are de facto B/W cards.

I really have to think about how deep I want to go, as I think my number one concern is that this ends up being a closet buff to the already powerful champion of the parish based humans deck. I don't want that deck to gain so many new tools that it can just power through the formats existing disruption. Great suggestions though everyone.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ok, first things first, since we mentioned pod, and I built a strong pod list last night:

The Return of Pod










Birthing Pod didn't actually show up into until the third pack, and this started out originally as a first pick silverblade paladin, hoping to wheel ghor-clan, with the ability to audible into humans. Because the champions didn't show up until pack 3 (where they wheeled endlessly), and I had already been drafting a strong G/W/r midrange deck, by the time pod showed up, it fit naturally into the deck.

And thats pretty much how I feel these build around cards should work, where they are sort of the spice that adds an extra dynamic to an already viable deck. If they show up in pack 1, you can build around them, if they show up in pack 3, their is a good chance they will fit into someones existing strategy.

But anyways, this sort of shows how these pod decks can be a bit different. Its ok with poding stuff to the yard, because you can always reanimate it with reveillark, or use it as fuel for cagebreakers. Also, generator servant is a fun card.

Anyways, back on topic, these are the changes I'm set to put into effect:

Dusk Urchins->Grim Haruspex
Gravecrawler->bloodsoaked champion
Scholar of athreos->village bell-ringer
Adarkar Valkyrie->dearly departed
Aethertow-> azorius charm
Syndic of tithes-> loyal cathar
Underworld connections->skirsdag flayer

I thought about cutting one champion of the parish, but I think I'll hold off on that until it establishes itself as a problem. Bloodsoaked champion is really good at creating that B/W relationship, because--being an aggressive one drop--it naturally warps ones mana base to B/W in conjuntion with champion of the parish. I really need the two cards showing up in the draft together, at least until my players figure out that they work well together.

I think I feel comfortable enough with the cube's removal at this point, where athertow can become the much cheaper azorius charm.

The loyal cathar suggestion is really good, and since we are on a new strategy for B/W, there is no reason for having syndic of tithes.

I think skirsdag flayer is a really important card to run, as its a very strong effect, but also a defacto B/W card. Underworld connections has been feeling a bit out of place, being a slower card built for attrition formats, which this isn't.

With the revamped humans theme coming in, I want to keep pontiff in at least for a while to see how he does. He works very well with the sacrifice effects. Pillory is a card I really like so I want that to stay. As for necromancer's covenant, I think that slot should be whatever B/W card you think is most going to excit your players. Atheros could be fine, or even something big and dumb like deathpact angel.

I've not really been happy with necromancer's covenant. All games must end, but its kind of an unsatisfying card to lose to i.m.o.
 
Nice to see everything coming together for WB and nice pod deck. I thick my view of what a pod deck should look like is a bit skewed by constructed so I keep looking at it as a build around and not just incidental value.
Do you feel any other guilds need direction?

Also, have you considered running Cabal Therapy over thoughtseize?
while it's not quite as powerful it has other advantages like flashback and being a sac outlet. In addition to that it works well if you know what is your opponent's hand through top of library manipulation.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think the other guilds are fine, though I am probably going to take that explore slot and run wild hunger, and the necromancer's cov. slot and run something like colossal might. I don't think R/G needs much help to solidify it as the stompy/Pod color, other than a few trample granting combat tricks.

I know that might seem weird, but one of the things that wizards has done to balance out the graveyard fatties is deny them trample, and being the combination that fills that void, I think, is a good place for R/G to be. There are some other cards I could run in R/G that grant trample, but I want to experiment with adding some more combat tricks to the cube. I'm also toying around with 1-2CC removal options to replace grim affliction, and will probably settle on victim of night, given the recent changes. I think grim affliction's CC is not on pace with the benefit it provides, considering slower control decks want it.

I think its fine to run therapy over thoughtseize. I just don't own a therapy, and am too cheap to buy one. :D

I'm pretty happy with the structure of the cube at the moment, and want to play it as is for a while. I feel like its really been polished. Don't let that stop you though from making changes of your own, or adjusting it for your playgroup. I'm looking forward to your list starting to take on a life of its own.
 
I agree that the cube is really coming together. I should get the last cards I need to complete it this week and then i will take it for a spin with my playgroup and see what they feel. One change I'll likely make thought is turn Banishment Decree into Unexpectedly Absent simply because the decree always feel super clunky when I tried to fit it into decks. Have you considered it yourself? feels like a good replacement.
 
Had my first playthough with the cube last night and overall it worked out great. There were a few cards that most of my play group identified as weaker and i think i agree with them on most of them.

Blade of the Bloodchief
This card just does nothing on its own. You spend 2 mana and a card and get no benefit untill you can get one of your creatures in the yard. And even if you do and the equipped creature manages to die you're back to square one. Probably not even worth it in the vampire decks if there ever is such a thing.
Replacement: Sylvok lifestaff
This guy costs the same but at least you get 3 life and probably a good trade out of the deal without any other interaction. Overall the cube has a bit too little lifegain for my taste and this should help a bit without giving it away to easily, you still have to have the creature die to get any bonus and if you can produce alot of creatures to sac to this thing you are probably winning anyway.

Pithing needle
Looking over the cube there are few activated abilities i would board this in against since we have no planeswalkers. The biggest ones are GrimGrin, Corpse-Born and Bloodline Keeper followed by Gavony township. The two former are creatures and are either vulnerable (Bloodline Keeper) or slow (GrimGrin) and the latter can be killed with tectonic edge or raced. In addition to this we already have the Phyrexian Revoker in the cube to handle them and it, as opposed to the needle, can actually be a main deck card.
Replacement: Adaptive Automaton
Not 100% sure about what to put in this slot but going to try the automaton since a few of the players requested another anthem effect and I would love to see the lord used for spirits, vampires, zombies or one of the other marginal tribes present.

Tajic, Blade of the legion
Turns out i wasn't the only one who had my doubts about this guy. He went late and even though the guy who played RW got him he stayed in the sideboard the entire evening.
Basicly he just doesn't do enough to warrant one of the precious multicolor slots. He is just a decently big body sometimes but is mostly just a good blocker but nothing that pulls a player into RW.
Replacement: Brion Stoutarm
Now here is a guy that makes you look twice! A decent body, sac outlet, one of the rare ways of actually gaining life and a way to del those last few points. That would make me consider running RW. Perhaps something that could warrant keeping the needle in but i'll see if it's a problem first.
And regarding creature type: Now that both WB and WG have human themes I have no problem of cutting a red human for a non human.

Also considering taking out the Trepanation blade. What are your experiences with it?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Good to hear!

I'm ok with these changes. A few thoughts thought:

Blade of the Bloodchief: I kind of want you to run lifestaff, as its a card i've been on the fence about, but blade of the bloodchief has been good here. Its been really more of a boardstall breaker, though albeit not every deck wants it. I like the idea of running automaton if you cut it though, as that card provides some more tribal support, and that was what was really behind the inclusion of blade of the bloodchief.

Pithing Needle: this was originally put in mostly because I wanted to have some answers for tec. edge. It turns out that answering tec. edge really isn't essential as there are no strategies that depend on utility lands. Automaton seems like a fine replacement, though I agree that its hard to pin down what exactly should go there.

Tajic, Blade of the Legion: Ah, tajic, you continuous source of controversy; it took a while for people to warm up to him over here, but he's been strong in actual play. However, I think that slot should be whatever will make your playgroup excited to go into those colors, and if Brion Stoutarm does the trick, than so be it. Another nice thing about stoutarm, is that the lifelink pairs well with the fight effects in the cube.

I would have a lot of people angry with me if I took out trepanation blade lol. The main issue with it is that its inconsistant, so if you have a bunch of spikes in your playgroup they might not like it at first. However, its led to some great stories, and has a lot of awesome interactions with the self-mill and TOL aspects of the cube. Eventually, you'll have player's using lim-dul's vault to setup broken interactions, and trep. blade can really complicate the decision tree in those situations. As always though, you have to cater to the desires of your playgroup, but I would leave it in for now and see whether they grow into the card or not.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Also, while I have a moment, general accounting:

Out:




In




The colossal might is just something I am playing around with, and may become a number of different things. Victim of night could be an urge to feed, feebleness, dead weight, or debilitating injury. Will probably update banishment decree into unexpectedly absent right before the draft (don't own a copy, but I think one of my buddies does). I've also been toying around with the idea of replacing vanishment, which has been a bit clunky, with any of a number of other choices.

Also, I liked that mono red was a draftable deck. We had someone stumble into it a while ago, and its nice to see, as I feel thats a deck someone will go for at some point and I don't want them to be punished for it.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
There is a metric ton of sweet blue cards that I could potentially run, and here is my list of cards I have thought about at various times:




...and stitcher geralf. I feel like I could almost have two different blue sections that I could swap in on different occastions just to keep my drafters on their toes.

For vanishment, I was probably going to run a similar effect like time ebb or nevermaker; probably time ebb because of its spot on the mana curve for answer decks, though nevermaker is much more abusable (though mercifully not with sun titan).
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So, I made the changes for tonights draft. Ran time ebb in place of vanishment, and it worked out very well. I unexpectedly did not have a copy of unexpectedly absent, so that will have to go in later.

I felt like even though humans had gotten a buff, the buff to removal in the form of cheaper bounce more than compensated for it. We had one game where the humans player had a champion and two copies of gather in his hand, but couldn't get anywhere with it due to his UB opponent hitting it with time ebb and silent departure.

I really liked the B/W additions: the sacrifice theme is now so much deeper, and better situated to use gather tokens as a resource. It looks like R/W/B is developing into a strong human sacrifice wedge.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Hopefully, people see the time stamp on this and see thats its new...but it was suggested on the cube tutor forum for my cube that ashnod's altar may have outlived its welecome, for which I am inclined to agree. I originally envisioned the altars being a center piece to a sacrifice ramp deck using tokens as fuel. That never really came to pass, for a variety of reasons, so now they are little more than clunky sac. outlets, that occastionally draw people into a deck that dosen't exist.

I still want to have some colorless sac. outlet, but perhaps one with more utility. This is what I was thinking of running in their place:




Crown is another TOL effect, and spawning pit provides another, albeit less than spectacular, colorless sac. outlet.
 
Funny, I am running a small cube that is highly influenced by your list and added Crown of Convergence few days ago.
Also I've got some questions regarding some of your archetypes:
1) How offen does the UG Mulch deck come together and how does it play/what are the incentive cards?
2) What are your thoughts on the interaction of Altar of Dementia and Undead Alchemist? I've recently killed a friends aggro deck from somewhat less than 20 cards in library, stealing a win and leaving him pretty disappointed. Has that interaction ever turned up/been a problem for you?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
1.) Generally, fixing over here is good enough where you won't see a pure UG deck, typically it will be some sort of BUG deck, and those come together all the time.

Mulch is a graveyard ramp card. Traditional ramp is just about building up your board, while graveyard ramp is about building up your board and graveyard. Mulch feeds the yard, while making sure that these mana hungry decks hit their land drops. A mulch list is going to want cards like bonehoard, ghoultree, nemesis of mortals, splinterfright, golgari grave-troll, and kessig cagebreakers. The blue cards that work well with it are the two stitched drakes, skaab ruinator, dream twist, spider spawning, and the two armored skaabs. Birthing pod also is occastionally good.

They also are capable of easily running memory's journey and runic repetition for the loop. Memory's journey is also just strong graveyard hate that makes life very difficult for certain decks, and something you want to run in a more control focused list. Some varients of the deck can also be very combo focused, relying on spider spawning, or lab. maniac to win.

2) I've not had that interaction come up, so its hard for me to comment on it. Altar is a very powerful card in the cube though, and it might be thats its fundamentally broken, just that none of my players have put it in the right list yet. I'll keep you updated over here, but if your players start putting together lists where it feels broken, I would like to both see the types of decks, as well as know how often its happening. Basically, I don't want to ban a card thats otherwise fun, but is only OP in a certain disruptable combo. Increasing confusion is another card thats potentially a feel bad, but hasn't shown itself a problem yet.

3) Do you have your list up on cubetutor? I would love to see it. All of this input is really helpful

-------------

For sac. outlets, I think I will probably go with blasting station for now. That was part of why I left the altars in for so long, was that the alternatives are less than exciting :/ Culling Dais is actually a consideration, because sources of raw card advantage can be hard to come by around here.

I also think I am going to cut a carrion feeder for a gnarled scarhide. Feeder is very narrow, being a defacto RB card that really only goes into a certain aggressive list. Treacherous urge is going to turn into a psychotic episode, if I can clear it with my group. Urge is basically a sideboard card, and episode has a lot of sweet interactions with the TOL cards.

When I made the list, I was a bit paranoid about dumb midrange fatties taking over the format--because thats what they did with my first cube. Since I want to buff RG anyways--and i've learned that multi-color sections are good places to isolate things that might otherwise be "too good" for a format--I want to hid a few big dumb fatties in my gruul section. I was thinking of finally cutting tajic, but for polis crusher, and run Zhur-Taa Swine instead of colossal might. Swine dosen't grant trample, but its a combat trick and a fattie all in one. I think than either scab-clan giant, for the fight effect, or skarrg guildmage for the trample and ability to create 4/4s. I want RG to be bigger, and in a position to take better advantage of the fight effects than other colors.

In addition, eric pointed out that the ferocius mechanic is a defacto gruul mechanic, so I think their might be some room to passively encourage the color combination without filling up the multi-color section.

Running Crater's claws rather than red sun's zenith, for example. Perhaps sneak in heir of the wilds as well: human, and cheap deathtouch for fight effects. I was also thinking that see the unwritten might be a really fun combo card. Granted, it would be a BUG card mainly, used in combination with insidious dreams, lim-dul's vault, or living death to create some absurd board states, but it seems like it would feel fair while rewarding player creativity.
 
I am toying around with two different lists right now. Based on this list I use for 2-Player drafts(http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/10514) I've recently created a second list that is focused around 5 guilds and 5 wedges, that using the baseline of the first cube. (http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/12139)
Also I drafted a deck in a ktk draft today that had See the Unwritten and the card felt pretty rewarding. I think that its powerlevel is dependant on the possible targets in the cube. I think it's similar to Bloodbraid Elf in that regard.
 
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