Inscho's Graveyard Combo Cube

V3 Primer below. V5 Primer to come.


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Graveyard Combo Cube
Cube Size: 384
6-8 players



Design constraints:
Singleton. No morph, monarch, dfc, companion, conspiracy, or tribal.


Format:
The Graveyard Combo Cube (GCC) is a graveyard cube in the sense that the graveyard ties most strategies together. This is not a graveyard-themed cube.

Zone interactions, complexity, and a variety of axes of play define the format. The pace is fast for a turn-2 aggro environment without mana elves or fast mana. Decision-making is dense with many moving parts, triggers, and exchanges in zones (hand to graveyard, graveyard to library, play to library, play to hand, etc). Games are punctuated by big turns and splashy sequences.

This is a medium+ powered format (6.5/10?) that seeks to capture the highs that one might find within a more degenerate pool of cards. Most strategies have access to something reasonably unfair to do, you just have to work a little harder for it.

This is not a suitable cube for beginners, but this version is less esoteric than some earlier iterations.


Cards:
There are no Eldrazi for your Sneak Attacks. There are no two-card infinite combos. While cards are generally two steps below powermax, promoting fast and smooth gameplay through mana-efficient effects remains a top priority.

Egalitarian card pool with a narrowed power band. Modality and versatility is important. The best card at its job may not be the best at its role. An innocuous glue card could define your deck as much as that sweet build around. Cards may feel like pieces of a puzzle, but most should have a baseline utility.

With some regards to elegance, I try to pare down keywords when convenient. I avoid mechanics that reference multiplayer formats as much as possible. I try to reduce the types of tokens whenever convenient. At the end of the day, these rules are loose and subject to be abandoned if a card provides something essential to the cube architecture.


Draft:
This is a choose your own adventure draft experience. There are often no clear first picks and the path to deck construction is splintered with decision trees. My goal is to foster a draft experience that is exploratory, indulgent, expressive, and challenging. I want a drafter to have multiple opportunities to pivot their deck’s focus before drafting their 45th card, but I also want them to be rewarded for committing to an early whim and trusting an impulse.


Deck Construction:
When looking at your draft pool, you may find that what you drafted does something very different than what you expected. Familiar archetypes are approached from unfamiliar angles. Deck styles vary significantly and operate at a lot of different frequencies. Cohesive themes and experimentation is rewarded. The sum is greater than the parts, and careful deck construction unlocks higher ceilings.


Card & Mechanic Spotlights:
Below are a few mechanics/cards that I get especially excited about in the GCC. I selected the following to show the types of things that are taken into consideration when assessing a card or mechanic's value and utility to the GCC.

Cycling:


(+ others)

Cycling is one of the most prevalent mechanics in the GCC. I could write a lot about the merits of cycling in this cube, but I’ll sum it to these points:
  • Cards with narrow windows of relevance remain relevant when drawn at the incorrect phase of the game (Decree of Justice and Waker of Waves in the early game, Censor and Migration Path in the late game, etc)
  • Smoothes the sequencing in the early turns. Spells that cycle help you hunt for mana when you are low on lands, Lands that cycle mitigate mana flood
  • Increases opportunities for decision-making
  • The draw and discard interact favorably with other cards in the cube
  • Cards that self-bin are useful for reanimation/recursion strategies as well as graveyard counting effects
  • Having built in cantrips is useful when hunting for combo pieces
  • Sideboard cards are always relevant (Forsake the Worldly, Wilt, etc)

Target Player Mill:



This is a graveyard cube so mill gets a lot of mileage here. Mill that can target either player is especially dynamic. Depending on your support cards you can easily switch gears on how mill is utilized when constructing your deck. You may even find yourself switching gears mid-game.

Target player mill can:

Squee:



I chose to pair these two cards together, because they are both equally unassuming, but provide something immensely valuable to this cube that isn’t necessarily apparent without having experience with the format.

Squee has obvious utility to the point that it is essentially a colorless card in this cube. It's almost like a static more or less. It can help some decks be a little more competitive by pushing the card parity of looting effects into pure card advantage. This is useful when you are lacking in mechanical payoffs like madness or flashback which is often, because I actually don't run as many of these cards as your average graveyard cube. It’s usefulness is context dependent even within a discard-centric archetype, there will be many times when it doesn’t crack your 40, but there will be plenty of times where it is the card that consistently gains you the upper hand.

To a lesser extent, Golgari Grave-Troll is another card in this family of glue cards, and there are others. I just wanted to take a moment to highlight a couple of less obvious ways to circumvent the mechanical demands of the format.

Vesperlark:



Vesperlark is a good example of how a card can be leveraged in unexpected ways in this cube:



From this pool you can see that Vesperlark can facilitate reanimator, artifact, blink, sacrifice, mill, and ramp strategies....all while being a solid card in its own right. Vesperlark can sometimes be the best card in your deck or the star in a game-ending sequence, and it doesn’t seem particularly special at first glance.


Archetype Overview:
WU: Blinkets, Mill, Tokens, Reanimator Control
UB: Tempo Dredge, Mill, Delve Control, Artifact Stax
BR: Hellbent Aggro, Welder Sneak, Aristocrats, Wildfire
RG: Madness Berserkers, Creature Sneak, Wildfire, Turboland
GW: Land Tilling, Rampinator, Tokens, Creature Value
WB: Aristocrats, Stax, Artifact Aggro, Reanimator
BG: Delirium Aggro, Sac Combo, Stax, Living Death
GU: Madness/Dredge Tempo, Self-Mill Combo, Turboland, Oath
UR: Aggro Loot, Artifacts, Wildfire, Spell Volume Control
RW: Artifact Aggro, Wildfire, Creature Cheat, Tokens


Archetypes Snapshots:
Below you will find archetype snapshots for each guild. These snapshots are only one example of a way you can tailor a strategy. Most archetypes fall on a spectrum. Comparing the snapshots within a guild may help you see other possibilities that aren’t explicitly spelled out here.

Azorius:

Blinkets:
Grind out value by reusing valuable artifacts and baubles through recursion and blink.


Mill: A control/combo deck that can switch gears from milling your opponent out to milling yourself to end a game via alternate win conditions.


Tokens: Midrange deck that uses cast triggers and graveyard-fueling effects to go wide.


Reanimator Control: Typical control deck with an organic reanimation component.


Dimir:

Tempo Dredge:
Aggressive deck using the graveyard as fuel for recursive and undercosted large bodies


Mill: Self-mill deck that can quickly whittle your library away to win via alternate win conditions or a combo finish.


Delve Control: Control deck that utilizes a stocked graveyard as a second hand as well as ramp.


Artifact Stax: Grindy resource denial deck with an artifact backbone.


Rakdos:

Hellbent Aggro:
Discard-driven aggro deck that thrives on having little to no cards in hand.


Sneaky Welder: Cheat out large hasted creatures and artifact creatures with board-warping impact.


Aristocrats: Sacrifice deck with multiple death triggers that can lead to combo-like finish.


Wildfire: The graveyard fuels undercosted fatties that break through symmetrical resource denial.


Gruul:

Madness Berserkers:
Aggressive creature pump deck that converts wheel effects to bursts of damage.


Creature Sneak: Cheat out hasty/bomby creatures with board-warping impact.


Wildfire: Resource denial deck with a discard slant and larger than Wildfire bodies.


Turboland: Exploration effects and wheels combine to generate lots of mana for large creatures and spells.


Can have a graveyard bent with things like:


Selesnya:

Land Tilling:
Midrange deck that grows creatures via land triggers and has a land destruction component


Rampinator: A ramp and reanimator hybrid deck made possible by key cycling cards.


Tokens: Go-wide deck with team pump effects tied together with land synergies


Creature Value: Toolbox midrange deck employing blink, recursion and sacrifice effects for maximum value.


Orzhov:

Aristocrats:
Sacrifice deck with multiple death triggers that can lead to combo-like finish.


Stax: Use small recursive creatures to whittle away your land-locked opponent’s life total.


Artifact Aggro: Resilient aggro deck with an artifact backbone and ample disruption.


Reanimator: Classic reanimator deck.



Golgari:

Delirium Aggro:
Graveyard-focused aggro deck pumping out oversized and recursive bodies backed with creature pump and disruption.


Sacrifice Combo: A sacrifice deck with toolbox utility, infinite creature loops, and a combo finish.


Stax: Resource denial deck centered around profiting on "lands to graveyard" triggers.


Living Death: Bin creatures in your graveyard via dredge and mill, reanimate, profit.


Simic:

Madness/Dredge Tempo: Discard-centric tempo deck utilizing the graveyard as a second hand.


Self-Mill Combo: Self-mill deck that can quickly whittle your library away, shuffling key cards back to win via alternate win conditions.


Turboland: Generate lots of mana to pump out big spells via exploration effects, draw spells and a stocked graveyard.


Oath: Contemporary take on an extended classic


Izzet:

Aggro Loot:
Aggressive deck centered around looting effects and discard triggers


Artifacts: Recycle and cheat out artifacts for incremental or monumental advantage
Recycle:



Cheat:


Wildfire: Midrange deck that gains advantage through seemingly symmetrical resource denial cards


Spells Volume Control: Control deck utilizing a variety of graveyard-counting effects.


Boros:

Artifact Aggro:
Explosive ggro deck centered around artifacts and recursion.


Wildfire: Midrange deck that gains advantage through seemingly symmetrical resource denial cards


Creature Cheat: Cheat out bomby hasted creatures via reanimation or sneak effects.



Tokens: Go-wide off the back of token-generating permanents


Inspiration:
I began playing around 1998, and started playing competitively around 2000. One of my favorite metas to this day was the 2001 Extended Metagame, it was my preliminary jumping off point for this cube 5 years ago, and it is something I still consider when thinking about my cube's meta.

20 years later, what remains interesting to me about this format was the variety of decks played, how extreme many of the strategies were, and how combo and resource denial weaves through and defines much of the format: decks with 0-2 creatures, decks with 10 lands, prison, land destruction, ramp, creature cheat, creature toolbox, turboland, metagamed aggro decks, glacially slow control, blistering aggro, etc.

Its relationship to this cube is far from 1:1. The original version of the cube was a little more nostalgic, but I’m much more entrenched in contemporary mechanics and fascinated by how intricate and granular strategies can be now. In comparing 2001 extended to this cube, I’m speaking in terms of the general spirit, the deck creativity, and the structure of the format. Take a look at these beauties and maybe you can see how this format has impacted my cube design:

Creature (4)
Crater Hellion
Shivan Hellkite
Spike Feeder
Spike Weaver

Sorcery (16)
Creeping Mold
Gaea's Blessing
Hammer of Bogardan
Pillage
Stone Rain

Instant (7)
Incinerate
Urza's Rage

Enchantment (8)
Oath of Druids
Seal of Fire

Land (25)
Dust Bowl
Forest
Karplusan Forest
Mountain
Taiga
Treetop Village
Wasteland



Creature (33)
Elvish Lyrist
Elvish Spirit Guide
Quirion Ranger
River Boa
Rogue Elephant
Rushwood Legate
Skyshroud Elite
Vine Dryad
Wild Dogs

Sorcery (4)
Land Grant

Instant (3)
Bounty of the Hunt

Artifact (2)
Winter Orb

Enchantment (8)
Briar Shield
Rancor

Land (10)
10 Forest



Creature (3)
Shard Phoenix

Sorcery (1)
Hammer of Bogardan

Instant (11)
Disenchant
Enlightened Tutor
Tithe

Artifact (14)
Cursed Scroll
Ensnaring Bridge
Jester's Cap
Mox Diamond

Enchantment (6)
Aura of Silence
Humility
Peace of Mind
Seal of Cleansing

Land (25)
Forbidding Watchtower
Ghitu Encampment
Mountain
Plains
Plateau
Shivan Gorge
Wasteland



Creature (36)
Deranged Hermit
Elvish Lyrist
Llanowar Elves
Masticore
Priest of Titania
Quirion Ranger
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Skyshroud Poacher
Spike Weaver
Squallmonger
Uktabi Orangutan
Verdant Force
Wall of Roots
Woodripper

Sorcery (4)
Natural Order

Land (20)
13 Forest
Gaea's Cradle
Wasteland



Creature (24)
Ashen Ghoul
Birds of Paradise
Elvish Lyrist
Hermit Druid
Krovikan Horror
Spike Feeder
Spike Weaver
Tradewind Rider

Sorcery (8)
Duress
Land Grant

Instant (4)
Intuition

Enchantment (4)
Oath of Ghouls

Land (20)
Bayou
City of Brass
Forest
Swamp
Tropical Island
Underground Sea



Creature (19)
Ball Lightning
Goblin Patrol
Jackal Pup
Mogg Fanatic
Viashino Sandstalker

Sorcery (3)
Hammer of Bogardan

Instant (12)
Fireblast
Incinerate
Shock

Artifact (4)
Cursed Scroll

Land (22)
Ghitu Encampment
16 Mountain
Wasteland


Creature (3)
Nether Spirit

Sorcery (18)
Choking Sands
Duress
Pox
Rain of Tears
Unmask

Instant (7)
Contagion
Spinning Darkness
Vampiric Tutor

Artifact (10)
Chimeric Idol
Cursed Scroll
Mox Diamond

Land (22)
18 Swamp
Wasteland



Creature (20)
Meddling Mage
Mother of Runes
Ramosian Sergeant
Soltari Priest
Steadfast Guard

Instant (12)
Brainstorm
Swords to Plowshares
Tithe

Artifact (4)
Cursed Scroll

Enchantment (6)
Seal of Cleansing
Crusade

Land (18)
Flood Plain
Plains
Scrubland
Tundra



Creature (24)
Academy Rector
Anarchist
Birds of Paradise
Hermit Druid
Masticore
Monk Idealist
Phyrexian Plaguelord
Spike Feeder
Spike Weaver
Verdant Force
Wall of Blossoms

Sorcery (6)
Duress
Living Death

Enchantment (7)
Attunement
Aura of Silence
Oath of Ghouls
Pernicious Deed
Recurring Nightmare

Land (23)
Bayou
Forest
Gemstone Mine
Mountain Valley
Phyrexian Tower
Reflecting Pool
Savannah
Swamp
Undiscovered Paradise



Instant (24)
Counterspell
Enlightened Tutor
Foil
Force of Will
Gush
Mana Leak
Rescue
Thwart

Artifact (6)
Claws of Gix
Feldon's Cane
Powder Keg

Enchantment (6)
Aura Fracture
Kismet
Stasis

Land (24)
Adarkar Wastes
Forsaken City
12 Island
Treva's Ruins
Tundra



Creature (14)
Avalanche Riders
Dwarven Miner
Jackal Pup
Mogg Fanatic

Sorcery (12)
Earthquake
Hammer of Bogardan
Pillage
Stone Rain

Instant (3)
Incinerate

Artifact (3)
Cursed Scroll

Enchantment (3)
Seal of Fire

Land (25)
Dust Bowl
Ghitu Encampment
13 Mountain
Rishadan Port
Wasteland



Creature (23)
Birds of Paradise
Deranged Hermit
Elvish Lyrist
Ophidian
Quirion Ranger
Tradewind Rider
Wall of Roots

Instant (8)
Force of Will
Impulse

Artifact (3)
Winter Orb

Enchantment (4)
Opposition

Land (22)
Forest
Island
Tropical Island
Yavimaya Coast



Creature (14)
Hunted Wumpus
Phyrexian Negator
River Boa
Skyshroud Elite

Sorcery (8)
Duress
Vindicate

Instant (7)
Swords to Plowshares
Tithe

Artifact (7)
Cursed Scroll
Mox Diamond
Powder Keg

Enchantment (2)
Rancor

Land (22)
Bayou
Grasslands
Savannah
Scrubland
Treetop Village
Wasteland



Creature (22)
Longbow Archer
Mother of Runes
Paladin en-Vec
Soltari Foot Soldier
Soltari Monk
Soltari Priest
Soltari Visionary
Standard Bearer
White Knight

Sorcery (4)
Armageddon

Instant (7)
Disenchant
Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (3)
Cursed Scroll

Enchantment (4)
Crusade

Land (20)
Kor Haven
19 Plains


Cubes of Influence:
The riptide community has been an endless well of inspiration for me for half of a decade. I couldn’t possibly touch on all of the members that have provided helpful insights and inspiration over the years. Just know I appreciate all of you.

That said, there have been a handful of cubes that have been particularly influential to the evolution of the GCC:

Alfonzo Bonzo’s Alchemist Crucible 3.1
dbs’ Mox Cube
Zubat’s Graveyard Cube

This cube is an ever-work in progress. I appreciate any feedback, criticisms, and samples drafts.

Archived Lists:
V2.0
V1.0
V0.0 (Lost to time)

Original Post:
Hi guys,

Apologies in advance for this vague garbagepost, but I wanted to get some ideas out for discussion.

The last cube I shared on here was a penny-inspired cube: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/inschos-turn-2-cube.1075/

Over the course of this year, I've been having a difficult time settling on my cube's power level. It's become so bad that my cube has been in complete shambles for the better part of the year while I endlessly tinker with iterations of the same idea on cubetutor...meanwhile my playgroup has only been meeting once every couple months due to my cube being out of commission.

The idea I've become fixated on originates with a card pairing posted on here a few months ago:

Sneak AttackWeatherseed Treefolk

Powerful dynamic enablers with a cast of lower-powered support cards. I started playing around mirage, but really started to delve into deck construction around Tempest and Urza Blocks. I wax nostalgic over Hammer of Bogardan and Ensnaring Bridge....Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit...Tradewind Rider and Armageddon. I've been trying to recapture some of these interactions in a contemporary context.

The list that feels the most promising at the moment is the one with the highest power level:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/59868

The other defined aspect of this cube is the mana base:
full set of bouncelands
full sets of both cycle lands
full set of fetches

This emphasizes hand and graveyard interactions as a foundation of the cube. Magic is a game of resource management, and this is amplified in many of the cube's archetypes as lands, hand, library, and graveyard are leveraged for value.

The land suite also establishes fixing as a hot commodity, which is a tension I enjoy when drafting. The land base is intentionally anemic and I foresee a lot of micro decisions occurring when developing your mana base in a game.

I've been wavering on the removal suite, ETB effects, and the general power level so I won't go into depth on that at this time.

Some sample decks:


Jund Hellbent
Ones
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Berserk
1 Bonesplitter
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Gravecrawler
1 Lightning Axe
1 Reckless Charge

Twos
1 Asylum Visitor
1 Avacyn's Judgment
1 Blood Scrivener
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Lightning Mauler
1 Lupine Prototype
1 Noose Constrictor
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Pale Rider of Trostad
1 Wild Mongrel

Threes
1 Fiery Temper
1 Gathan Raiders

Fours
1 Bloodhall Priest
1 Briarhorn
1 Snuff Out

Sixes+
1 Become Immense
1 Hooting Mandrills

Lands
1 City of Brass
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
5 Forest


Lands Matter Beats
Ones
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bonesplitter
1 Emerge Unscathed
1 Gryff's Boon
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Land Tax
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Rogue Elephant
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Tithe

Twos
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Noose Constrictor
1 Oreskos Explorer
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Tarmogoyf

Threes
1 Angelic Purge
1 Griffin Guide
1 Knight of the Reliquary

Fours
1 Pack Guardian
1 Ranger of Eos

Lands
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Windswept Heath
8 Plains
6 Forest


Token Stax
Zeroes
1 Mox Diamond

Ones
1 Land Tax
1 Raven's Crime
1 Tithe

Twos
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Oreskos Explorer
1 Perilous Myr
1 Scrapheap Scrounger
1 Seeker of the Way
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Smallpox
1 Zulaport Cutthroat

Threes
1 Flickerwisp
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Lingering Souls
1 Midnight Haunting
1 Tangle Wire

Fours
1 Battle Screech
1 Braids, Cabal Minion

Fives
1 Murderous Cut

Sixes+
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Unexpectedly Absent

Lands
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Windbrisk Heights
8 Plains
7 Swamp

Simic Lab Man
Ones
1 Brainstorm
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald

Twos
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Miscalculation
1 Mulch
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Remand
1 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thing in the Ice

Threes
1 Filigree Familiar
1 Frantic Search
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Trygon Predator

Fours
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Mystic Snake
1 Stunt Double

Fives
1 Body Double

Sixes+
1 Crush of Tentacles
1 Seasons Past
1 Temporal Mastery

Lands
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Remote Isle
1 Simic Growth Chamber
7 Island
7 Forest

Sneak Attack
Ones
1 Darkblast
1 Dead Weight
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gamble

Twos
1 Perilous Myr
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Magma Jet

Threes
1 Blast from the Past
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Feldon of the Third Path
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Necromancy
1 Tuktuk the Explorer

Fours
1 Erratic Portal
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Sneak Attack

Fives
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Shriekmaw

Sixes+
1 Crater Hellion
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Symbiotic Wurm
1 Artisan of Kozilek

Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Gruul Turf
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Vesuva
6 Swamp
5 Mountain
1 Forest

Miracles
Ones
1 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Harm's Way
1 Land Tax

Twos
1 Counterspell
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Miscalculation
1 Regrowth
1 Remand
1 Scroll Rack
1 Think Twice
1 Wall of Omens

Threes
1 Forbid
1 Oblivion Ring

Fours
1 Archaeomancer
1 Hedron Archive

Sixes+
1 Rise from the Tides
1 Syncopate
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Unexpectedly Absent

Lands
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Remote Isle
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Shelldock Isle
5 Plains
5 Island
2 Forest


Thanks for taking the time to look.

First Main Revision:
Archetype Overview:
WU: Prowess Tokens, Show Control, Skies, Reanimator
UB: Dredge, Gifts Control, Reanimator, Dreams Combo
BR: Hellbent Aggro, Aristocrats, Sneak Attack, Deathcloud
RG: Madness Aggro, Sneak Attack, Wildfire, Turboland
GW: Oath, Elfball, Lands, Hatebears/Company
WB: Stax, Aristocrats, Hatebears, Control
BG: Delirium Aggro, Stax, Sac Combo, Living Death
GU: Madness, Turboland, Seasons Combo, Oath
UR: Storm, Artifacts, Madness, Wildfire
RW: Tokens, Wildfire, Sneak Attack, Artifact Aggro


Azorius

Dimir
Dredge Aggro: Aggressive deck using the graveyard as fuel for recursive and undercosted large bodies
Scrapheap Scrounger
Eternal Scourge
Skaab Ruinator
Tombstalker
Unearth
Mesmeric Orb

Gifts Control: Control deck utilizing the graveyard as a second hand
Psychatog
Torrential Gearhulk
Darkblast
Circular Logic
Ancient Excavation
Gifts Ungiven

Reanimator: Typical reanimator deck
Body Double
Simic Sky Swallower
Collective Brutality
Entomb
Show and Tell
Necromancy

Dreams Combo: Sneak out a key enchantment, and proceed to play out your deck using wheel effects to keep your grip full.
Show and Tell
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Will
Dream Halls
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Omniscience

Rakdos
Hellbent: Discard-driven aggro deck that thrives on having little to no cards in hand
Asylum Visitor
Bloodghast
Olivia, Mobilized for War
Anger
Faithless Looting
Raven's Crime

Aristocrats: Sacrifice deck with repeated death triggers leading to a combo-like finish
Blood Artist
Goblin Sharpshooter
Imperial Recruiter
Midnight Reaper
Living Death
Goblin Bombardment
(Midnight Reaper is the broken link)

Sneak Attack: Cheat out bomby hasted creatures with board-warping impact or death triggers
Apprentice Necromancer
Feldon of the Third Path
Scuttling Doom Engine
Artisan of Kozilek
Sneak Attack
Volrath's Stronghold

Death Cloud: Recursive creatures and artifacts maintain a board presence while the world burns
Greater Gargadon
Bloodghast
Scrap Trawler
Death Cloud
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Smokestack

Gruul
Madness Berserkers: Aggressive deck converting Wheel effects to bursts of damage
Wild Mongrel
Anger
Honored Hydra
Berserk
Reckless Charge
Wheel of Fortune

Sneak Attack: Cheat out bomby hasted creatures with board-warping impact or death triggers
Feldon of the Third Path
Greenwarden of Murasa
Woodfall Primus
Evolutionary Leap
Sneak Attack
Pattern of Rebirth

Wildfire: Resource denial deck with a discard slant and bigger-than-wildfire bodies
Lupine Prototype
Tarmogoyf
Devastating Dreams
Life from the Loam
Roar of the Wurm
Wildfire

Turboland: Dump your hand on the back of mana from explore effects and mana-doublers. Wheels keep your grip full. Win with a large fireball or something else degenerate.
Oracle of Mul Daya
Devil's Play
Exploration
Heartbeat of Spring
Mana Flare
Memory Jar

Selesnya
Oath: Use board-altering enchantments to cheat out bomby permanents and creatures
Enlightened Tutor
Replenish
Decree of Justice
Oath of Druids
Mirari's Wake
Overwhelming Splendor

Elfball: Go-wide with small bodies and convert them into big mana or overrun with combat damage
Llanowar Elves
Rishkar, Peema Renegade
Ranger of Eos
Woodfall Primus
Chord of Calling
Earthcraft

Lands: Midrange deck that gains advantage through seemingly symmetrical resource denial cards
Magus of the Balance
Knight of the Reliquary
World Shaper
Life from the Loam
Cataclysm
Land Tax

Hatebears/Company: Toolbox midrange deck with creature-chaining card advantage and disruptive bears
Fauna Shaman
Remorseful Cleric
Reclamation Sage
Recruiter of the Guard
Collected Company
Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Orzhov
Stax: Use small recursive creatures to whittle away your land-locked opponent
Bloodghast
Braids, Cabal Minion
Tombstalker
Land Tax
Lingering Souls
Death Cloud

Aristocrats: Sacrifice deck with repeated death triggers leading to a combo-like finish
Carrion Feeder
Blood Artist
Recruiter of the Guard
Weaponcraft Enthusiast
Reveillark
Blasting Station

Hatebears: Swiss-army knife white weenie deck tuned with all the tools to disrupt "flashier" strategies in the metagame
Tidehollow Sculler
Phyrexian Revoker
Stoneforge Mystic
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Path to Exile
Cranial Plating

Control: Atypical control deck with copious amounts of removal, life gain, and game-ending permanents
Academy Rector
Vampiric Tutor
Renewed Faith
Fumigate
Alhammarret's Archive
Yawgmoth's Bargain

Golgari
Delirum: Graveyard-focused aggro deck pumping out oversized and recursive bodies backed with creature pump and disruption
Bloodsoaked Champion
Grim Flayer
Tarmogoyf
Mindwrack Demon
Collective Brutality
Moldervine Cloak

Stax: Resource denial deck centered around profiting on "lands to graveyard" triggers
Turntimber Sower
Braids, Cabal Minion
The Gitrog Monster
Raven's Crime
Life from the Loam
Death Cloud

Sac Combo: A sacrifice deck with toolbox utility, infinite creature loops, and a combo finish
Carrion Feeder
Blood Artist
Midnight Reaper
Fecundity
Protean Hulk
Pattern of Rebirth
(Midnight Reaper is the broken link)

Living Death: Bin creatures in your graveyard via dredge and mill, reanimate, profit
Satyr Wayfinder
Archfiend of Ifnir
Extractor Demon
Living Death
Altar of Dementia
Tombstone Stairwell

Simic
Madness: Discard-driven aggro deck using the graveyard as a toolbox
Fauna Shaman
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Wonder
Silent Departure
Gifts Ungiven
Roar of the Wurm

Turboland: Play lots of lands early and often. Use your overwhelming mana advantage to outpower your opponent
Lotus Cobra
Oracle of Mul Daya
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Simic Sky Swallower
Urban Evolution
Exploration

Seasons Combo: A storm deck with our without storm cards. Sneak out a key enchantment, and combo out your opponent using the largest spells in the game
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Show and Tell
Heartbeat of Spring
Dream Halls
Seasons Past
Omniscience

Oath: Contemporary take on an old extended classic
Greenwarden of Murasa
Moment's Peace
Deep Analysis
Gifts Ungiven
Rise from the Tides
Oath of Druids

Izzet
Madness: A counter-burn version of the madness deck. Burn, counterspells, flyers, and haste
Looter il-Kor
Waterfront Bouncer
Flamewake Phoenix
Curator of Mysteries
Blast from the Past
Circular Logic

Storm: Textbook storm deck revolving around cycling through your deck with free/cheap spells to get a critical amount of storm triggers
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Crow Storm
Wheel of Fortune
Dream Halls
Mind's Desire
Rise from the Tides

Artifacts: Recycle and cheat out artifacts to gain incremental or monumental advantage
Scrap Trawler
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Combustible Gearhulk
Tinker
Ichor Wellspring
Mindslaver

Wildfire: Resource denial deck with heavy emphasis on wildfire-dodging permanents like artifacts, gods, and planewalkers
Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Keranos, God of Storms
Devastating Dreams
Tinker
Wildfire
Smokestack

Boros
Tokens: Go-wide token strategy with anthem effects and combo potential
Young Pyromancer
Imperial Recruiter
Monastery Mentor
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Rally the Peasants
Battle Screech

Wildfire: Midrange deck that gains advantage through seemingly symmetrical resource denial cards
Greater Gargadon
Countryside Crusher
Devastating Dreams
Cataclysm
Wildfire
Crucible of Worlds

Sneak Attack: Cheat out bomby hasted creatures with board-warping impact or death triggers
Imperial Recruiter
Feldon of the Third Path
Magus of the Wheel
Karmic Guide
Angel of Serenity
Sneak Attack

Artifact Aggro: Utilitarian aggro deck capable of shifting between resource denial, go-wide, and go-tall strategies
Goblin Welder
Bygone Bishop
Scrap Trawler
Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Pyrite Spellbomb
Tangle Wire
 
Last edited:

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Looks good. I'll post more later, but after a quick eyeballing, this curve in red I would keep an eye on:



I think thats your biggest concentration of powerful ETB effects. I would imagine, at a minimum, that they will take over and define your U/R/x decks, regardless of whatever other synergies you are trying to push in that combination. Lots of proactive removal and board cloggers, a proactive sweeper, and a proactive removal recursion source looks like a cinch for UR pressure-control.

And thats kind of the issue with ETB creatures; because you are attaching spell effects to a body, whatever you originally envisioned for your format, it now becomes a format revolving around creature based, proactive strategies.

Which is different than using sneak attack as a sort of ritual effect, just to get a decent rate on a number of otherwise miserably priced square threats.
 
What do you think of these cards? I'm not entirely sure on your philosophy with respect to this cube but in my opinion these would be great adds:



Together these add another angle to your cube--Reveillark combo! Again I don't know if you're interested in this kind of thing but you can facilitate a fun and low-cost (in terms of cube space) angle. I'm also a big fan of Saffi Eriksdotter and Sun Titan if you choose to go further down that rabbit hole.
 
Looks good. I'll post more later, but after a quick eyeballing, this curve in red I would keep an eye on:

Those are all moderately expendable...With GDD being my favorite.

I wasn't super keen on Pia and Kiran to begin with....It just seemed like a versatile curve topper for aristocrats, artifact.dec, and tokens.

This substitution introduced two of those:
->

->
->


It wouldn't hurt my feelings to undo that...

As for subbing out Pia.....I'm not really sure:



I think that I like Shaman the most of that lot....generally good for aggro, tokens, and a potential draw engine in Gruul Ramp. Mana is a little rough in this cube which may temper the strength of it's activated ability.

Enthralling Victor could also be a nice aggro curve topper while being useful for Sacrifice shenanigans.
 
What do you think of these cards? I'm not entirely sure on your philosophy with respect to this cube but in my opinion these would be great adds:



Together these add another angle to your cube--Reveillark combo! Again I don't know if you're interested in this kind of thing but you can facilitate a fun and low-cost (in terms of cube space) angle. I'm also a big fan of Saffi Eriksdotter and Sun Titan if you choose to go further down that rabbit hole.


I've never run both Reveillark and Karmic Guide together in a cube before. Partially due to it's resilience being a recursion-based loop, but also a personal preference for finite combos over infinite. Saffi would be cool if I could place it outside of blink strategies....what other decks does it go into?

I really like Sun Titan, but it has always felt too good for my cubes. However, it might be a better fit than Cataclysmic Gearhulk...which I'm pretty lukewarm over. Before Gearhulk it was Linvala, the Preserver (definitely too good) and Sunblast Angel (spotty). Anyone have feedback on Sun Titan in lower-powered environments?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Made a couple sealed pools to look at, and flashed through a few first picks: looks promising. Blue looks less overwhelming than it normally does, which is nice. Its refreshing to have our starting point being whether red 4-6 drops are maybe too good.

Did a draft, and was happy overall. First the negatives:

Wasn't happy with the fixing. You have 40 slots total listed on lands, which is already light in a 360 format, and 10 of those are devoted to cycling lands, which don't fix at all. Than 3 colorless producing lands, which again don't help, and vesuva, which does you no good if you don't have fixing sources. Than their are 8 lands slotted into the colored sections, which either produce mono-colors or colorless.

Almost the entire weight of fixing is carried by a row of bouncelands, and a row of fetchlands, supported by 6 fixers of various quality (gemstone mines to evolving wilds), so a total of 26 sources of mana fixing from lands, which is very low. Only 7.2% of the format is mana fixing from lands.

Which is why this wasn't really surprising

R/G hellbent from CubeTutor.com












Green saves me here though due to cards like tusker and traverse. Part of this was my fault, for not aggressively taking evolving wilds, as I didn't realize when I did the draft what a premium fixing would be. It seems strange to have some of the mono-producing or colorless producing cards located under the lands section, and the others located under the proper colors.

On the plus side though, I quite liked the deck. First draft isn't a blue deck, which is a rarity for most formats, and suggests healthy color relationships. I think this is pretty clearly not the color pairing that hellbent or madness was intended to appear in (probably R/B, based on some of the cards I was seeing), yet it was flexible enough to appear in this color, which is quite nice.

Though I don't like the p and k and FTK, this still dosen't look like a good stuff deck, and all of the pieces: hellbent and delirium: really feed into one another to create a distinct feeling strategy that would be fun to play.

My main concern is that the poor fixing forbid this deck from splashing or moving into black at all. While its good to have two color identity, three color decks help keep those color identities from quickly feeling stale, as you can mix and match parts of the color pie to add some spice to the existing formula. I think thats the biggest cost to having such low density fixing.

Its also worth noting that I had to pick up the avaricious dragon-probably the most interesting card in the deck-on the wheel, because I couldn't turn down the FTK.

Last note: I absolutely hate top in cube. Outside of miserably slowing down games, its rarely actually good without consistent shuffling effects, and your fetchland density is only something like 3%. Many of the miracle cards themselves are also seldom fun, often having either dismally low floors, or insane ceilings. I think you'll probably be fine if you just cut entreat, and than leave TOL tutors with the task of making miracles. Terminus and temporal mastery look like they could be quite fun with those effects.

Really skeptical that proc of rebirth is going to be good enough. I imagine you have compulsion in there because its so good at feeding delirium, but that card is really good.

Nice job though, you should give yourself a pat on the back.
 
Thanks as always for the thoughtful comments.

A few cards I want to bring back in to support the madness side of gruul are:



I subbed out Magus recently forgetting a lot of the reasons I'd included it in the first place. Tuktuk is going to go which mostly came in for the sacrifice deck and wildfire.

In regards to fixing. I'm not sure how to approach adding more lands without breaking singleton. The only thing I like about shocks is increasing the value of Rogue Elephant/Plant Elemental, and the Tithe effects in white. Come into play tapped lands tool up control more than I'd like.

I've thought about these lands to support aggro:



But that package is too spotty to be an improvement.

Perhaps taplands wouldn't be the worst....I guess I could toss in the Temples?

I don't love the idea of breaking singleton, but if I did I'd probably run multiples of:


Which are my two favorite lands in this cube.
 
I've done a few drafts and I want to echo concerns about fixing. To me it really feels like the cycling lands are horrible, and there just isn't enough fixing. When you have a cube which leans more towards synergy than good stuff you will usually have some cards which don't fit your deck, even if they are on colour, restricting your number of playables. You don't have the fixing to dip into other colours and there were times when I struggled to make 23 cards in the deck which led to a bit of an unsatisfactory experience.

That aside, I like what you do with your cubes, we have a lot of similarities in our approach.
 
When you have a cube which leans more towards synergy than good stuff you will usually have some cards which don't fit your deck, even if they are on colour, restricting your number of playables.

Ok, I'm convinced. I hadn't really considered that. Job well done, you two :D



I'm interested in the sequencing decisions these two sets introduces with the bouncelands. I have a feeling that this could be a little clunkier in practice than on paper. I know you both are supporters of bounces+temples, but how do you feel about the fastlands?

Also, is it silly of me to be so skeptical of shocklands alongside fetches in this cube?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Honestly, my instinct is that fastlands just won't interact with the bouncelands at all. They will just be fixers for aggro decks to prioritize highly.
 
Updated the cube link in the original post and my signature.

Ahadabans' Combo Cube has hit on a lot of things I've been hunting around for, and has inspired several of the new card selections. I've also come to terms with my appreciation for unfair feel-bad strategies. :oops:

I'll post more later tonight, but hopefully some of my other posts in the low-power thread informs this latest iteration.
 
Ramble to follow....

Take my cubetutor lists lightly, because I have so many versions at this point that I'm not even sure which I'm working on right now. I need to start somewhere so I'll start by listing "distinct" archetypes I'm interested in exploring. I'll follow with some sample decklists that I have in mind. I'm looking to address power imbalances between strategies, and to tailor removal and ETB in the process.

W/U: Artifact Control
W/B: Stax
W/R: Prowess Tokens
W/G: Undecided
U/B: "Teachings" Control
U/R: Undecided
U/G: Oath
B/R: Sneak Attack, Hellbent
B/G: Undecided
R/G: Berserkers

(With Wildfire existing in multiple guilds)

These are the archetypes that excite me the most right now. I feel like they provide the greatest range of strategies, and are potentially the most defining archetypes for my cube. My plan is to articulate these archetypes more clearly, and provide the space to bring into focus the appropriate power level for other archetypes like Living Death, Aristocrats, Spells Matter, etc.

I'll start with the sample Oath list I posted the other day:

Oath Proto

Creatures (4)
Eternal Witness
Gamekeeper
Greenwarden of Murasa
Pelakka Wurm

Planewalkers (1)
Kiora, the Crashing Wave

Permanents (2)
Oath of Druids
Scroll Rack

Spells (16)
Brainstorm
Mystical Tutor
Silent Departure
Explore
Krosan Reclamation
Mana Leak
Moment's Peace
Regrowth
Unsubstantiate
See Beyond
Call of the Herd
Frantic Search
Deep Analysis
Time Warp
Crush of Tentacles
Rise from the Tides

Lands (23)
Shelldock Isle
Treetop Village
Misty Rainforest
Temple of Mystery
Simic Growth Chamber
Forest
Island


And another potential manifestation:

Oath Proto 2

Creatures (5)
Eternal Witness
Gamekeeper
Oracle of Mul Daya
Regal Behemoth
Borborygmos Enraged

Planeswalkers (1)
Garruk Wildspeaker

Permanents (4)
Exploration
Oath of Druids
Scroll Rack
Heartbeat of Spring

Spells (13)
Faithless Looting
Explore
Increasing Vengeance
Regrowth
Krosan Reclamation
Life from the Loam
Anger of the Gods
Call of the Herd
Wheel of Fortune
Harmonize
Seasons Past
Clan Defiance
Devil's Play

Lands (23)
Treetop Village
Mishra's Factory
Raging Ravine
Gruul Turf
Wooded Foothills
11 Forest
Mountain


The Gruul list is a first draft.

The Oath deck should be kept in check by the disruption incentivized in the cube. There is a prevalence of graveyard strategies as well as graveyard disruption, and the same goes for noncreature permanents and removal. I'd ideally have aggro be represented by Combo Aggro (Aristocrats, Berserkers) as well as Disruptive Aggro (Hatebears, Junk, maybe Ponza). Here is an old 3-Deuce deck that I've had on my mind lately:


2001 3-Deuce

Creatures (16)
Elvish Lyrist
Granger Guildmage
Mogg Fanatic
River Boa
Skyshroud Elite

Spells (14)
Call of the Herd
Land Grant
Swords to Plowshares
Wax / Wane

Permanents (11)
Cursed Scroll
Rancor
Seal of Cleansing

Lands (19)
Plateau
Savannah
Taiga
Treetop Village
Wasteland


2001 PT New Orleans Top 8 for context:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9200&d=252712&f=EX

Trix aside, there is a lot that I enjoy about the range of decks represented here, and this is just one of my favorite moments in the game. It was about this time that I really started playing competitively in tournaments. Some other interesting decks from the same general era:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nals-2000-top-8-standard-decklists-2000-01-01

Lunch is over so I'll have to continue this thought later.

EDIT: Lot more rad 2001 decks listed here: http://archive.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=Worlds2001\441extendeddecks
 
Next up Hellbent:

Creatures (14)
Dread Wanderer
Grim Lavamancer
Bloodsoaked Champion
Asylum Visitor
Bloodrage Brawler
Bloodghast
Lupine Prototype
Scrapheap Scrounger
Eternal Scourge
Gathan Raiders
Stromkirk Occultist
Anger
Avaricious Dragon
Bloodhall Priest

Permanents (3)
Chrome Mox
Bonesplitter
Cursed Scroll

Spells (8)
Fireblast
Snuff Out
Entomb
Faithless Looting
Firebolt
Raven's Crime
Collective Brutality
Murderous Cut

Lands (13)
Blackcleave Cliffs
Bloodstained Mire
Blood Crypt
City of Brass
Swamp
Mountain


This deck has continually been a favorite of mine, and pivots nicely into green's pump spells and Wild Mongrels. This is probably the closest in my cube to a traditional aggro strategy. I love the Hail Mary manner of piloting juxtaposed with the many ways to squeeze out value as the game progress. It feels like a desperate expending of all available resources. Eternal Scourge and Entomb are a lot of fun here.

I'm a bit wary of whether this deck is too fast for most of the other strategies in the cube.

EDIT: Also on my radar for being too fast....Berserkers:

Berserkers

Creatures (13)
Experiment One
Kird Ape
Noble Hierarch
Abbot of Keral Keep
Lightning Mauler
Noose Constrictor
Viashino Slaughtermaster
Wild Mongrel
Loaming Shaman
Magus of the Wheel
Stromkirk Occultist
Shaman of the Great Hunt
Bedlam Reveler

Permanents (2)
Rancor
Grafted Wargear

Spells (9)
Fireblast
Berserk
Faithless Looting
Lightning Bolt
Reckless Charge
Avacyn's Judgment
Nightbird's Clutches
Wheel of Fortune
Become Immense

Lands (16)
Wooded Foothills
Raging Ravine
City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Forest
Mountain


Some others

Artifact Control

Creatures (8)
Hangarback Walker
Perilous Myr
Spellskite
Wall of Omens
Filligree Familiar
Trinket Mage
Torrential Gearhulk
Platinum Angel

Spells (8)
Mystical Tutor
Path to Exile
Remand
Renewed Faith
Thirst for Knowledge
Tinker
Ojutai's Command
Terminus

Permanents (7)
Urza's Bauble
Engineered Explosives
Phyexian Furnace
Hedron Archive
Nevinyrral's Disk
Phyrexian Processor
Mindslaver

Lands (17)
Academy Ruins
Azorius Chancery
Irrigated Farmland
Mishra's Factory
Temple of Enlightenment
Island
Plains


Prowess Tokens

Creatures (11)
Figure of Destiny
Goblin Bushwhacker
Grim Lavamancer
Kytheon, Hero of Akros
Soul-Scar Mage
Young Pyromancer
Monastery Mentor
Ranger of Eos
Sublime Archangel
Bedlam Reveler
Mikaeus, the Lunarch

Spells (12)
Fireblast
Faithless Looting
Firebolt
Mana Tithe
Lightning Helix
Tormenting Voice
Collective Effort
Rally the Peasants
Battle Screech
Stoke the Flames
Secure the Wastes
Unexpectedly Absent

Lands (17)
Arid Mesa
City of Brass
Inspiring Vantage
Sacred Foundry
Plains
Mountain


Teachings Control

Creatures (8)
Snapcaster Mage
Eternal Scourge
Psychatog
Vendillion Clique
Haunted Dead
Wonder
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Torrential Gearhulk

Spells (15)
Darkblast
Fatal Push
Mystical Tutor
Silent Departure
Chainer's Edict
Logic Knot
Miscalculation
Think Twice
Frantic Search
Deep Analysis
Gifts Ungiven
Mystical Teachings
Murderous Cut
Wretched Confluence
Crush of Tentacles

Lands (17)
Dimir Aqueduct
Evolving Wilds
Fetid Pools
Polluted Delta
Island
Swamp


Sneak Attack

Creatures (12)
Apprentice Necromancer
Feldon of the Third Path
Fleshbag Marauder
Magus of the Wheel
Murderous Redcap
Archfiend of Ifnir
Puppeteer Clique
Crater Hellion
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Scuttling Doom Engine
Artisan of Kozilek
Greater Gargadon

Permanents (2)
Diabolic Servitude
Sneak Attack

Spells (9)
Duress
Faithless Looting
Inquisition of Kozilek
Vampiric Tutor
Cathartic Reunion
Kolaghan's Command
Wheel of Fortune
Wretched Confluence
Grave Upheaval

Lands (17)
Bloodstained Mire
Canyon Slough
City of Bras
Sulfurous Springs
Volrath's Stronghold
Mountain
Swamp
 
I sneak added some lists to my last post.

I'm having my first outing with the newest version of the cube on Thursday. This is where I'm at right now:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/76533

If anyone has time to run some sample drafts, and lend any thoughts you may have, I'd appreciate it.

Cards that I'm presently on the fence about:

I fear that this weaponizes an already robust archetype. Between Secure the Wastes, Dictate of Heliod and Monastery Mentor....the scales feel a little off. I do like it being a win-con for the Teachings deck, but Mystical Teachings is on the chopping block right now. I do like white bringing something to the mana doublers.


I initially brought this in when I cut Armageddon, and I'm unsure of my feelings for Cataclysm. I like the disruption it brings to artifact decks, and that it can be utilized in a lot more ways than Armageddon. It's power level is borderline. My cubers don't get their feelings hurt very easily so I'm not too concerned about the feel bads.


I was excited to be at a power level that could support this card as it plays well with the land reuse and hand management themes of the cube. However, I feel it might just be too powerful to utilize in a flavorful way. I'm at a loss for what to replace it with. I'd love to bring in Palinchron, but it would likely be at the expense of at least Heartbeat of Spring.


I wanted to have a clear signal to draft control in blue, but this guy just feels so generic to me.


A residual include from before I cut Storm. I may re-add storm. It seems a bit unnecessary without Storm. I have no idea. Help?

and
I think I want at least one in my cube, maybe both. Perhaps both is too much? I've loved Opposition since it first hit standard. However, at this point the Opposition archetype just feels like such a generic simic deck...unless you manage to draft plow under and tangle wire. What does an interesting Opposition/Glare deck look like?


This feels a bit intense with the presence of Scuttling Doom Engine and Siege Rhino in the cube....is this a little too one-dimensional for Sneak Attack and Living Death?


This or Woodfall Primus?


Love this card, but once I cut Academy Rector its stock went down substantially. What cards could I incorporate to better take advantage of this card?


Another card I love, but I may be at too high of a power level to reasonably support this? Even optimized, it feels pretty bad here.


Like Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, this card hits on all the right buttons for my archetypes.....but feels like one button too many. It feels like it fits too well and effortlessly. Does that make sense?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The cube seems fine to me. Their is a pretty broad power gap, which I am sure is informing people's drafting habits.

I would probably take what you have and refine it, until you get a feeling for these cards. The format feels a bit split, and I would expect that it will have to start tilting either towards its lower end spectrum, or its upper end spectrum.

It might be a good idea to establish what your overarching goal is, and the style of magic you want to play. Whenever you post, you seem drawn to those 2001 era deck lists, and it typically seems to be some of the engine pieces--in particular oath. I can see bits of that here, and its probably responsible for the power dip, but than much of the rest of the list seems like a powered cube. Its probably inevitable that one will eventually supplant the other.

U/G Opposition from CubeTutor.com












The only critical card differentiating this deck from a vintage cube opposition deck, is no deranged hermit. That should be significant in terms of establishing your format expectations going forward.

Versus

Creature (21)
Birds of Paradise
Flametongue Kavu
Llanowar Elves
Merfolk Looter
Phantom Centaur
Wild Mongrel

Sorcery (3)
Deep Analysis

Instant (7)
Circular Logic
Fire/Ice

Enchantment (7)
Opposition
Squirrel Nest

Land (22)
Forest
Island
Karplusan Forest
Shivan Reef
Yavimaya Coast

(0)
 
That split you mentioned hit the nail on the head. I'm really at a fork in the road on my cube design. I'll share more thoughts on last Thursday's outing and how it might've given me a little clarity, but first the decks:

3-0










2-1s





















1-2s























0-3









 
So there was some pretty interesting decks in the mix. I ran the Esper Artifact Deck that I was sure would do better. I made a couple draft mistakes thinking a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Mindslaver would wheel. I was also lacking enough support for the Gifts Ungiven and Torrential Gearhulk in my sideboard. My losses were all down to the wire, a couple games only being 1 turn or 1 card away from stabilizing.

It was great to see someone come out of the gates with the Oath deck, but it didn't quite come together for them. The pilot, being used to typical powered cube oath decks, voiced some complaints over the lack of juicy targets and graveyard shuffle. There were some bombs in the draft that he didn't snag (Vorapede, Pelakka Wurm, Scuttling Doom Engine), but most of the best support was in the undrafted portion of the cube.

Opposition really dominated the night. I managed to fend it off pretty well in our matches until Winter Orb came down. :oops:

It was awkward seeing 2 simic decks on a similar strategy do well. That definitely colored the night for me as the cube designer. Between the two there was the ideal Simic Land Denial deck, one of the archetypes I'm most wary of....even when split between two decks, Simic ran the tables (the one simic deck only losing to the 3-0 opposition deck). My takeaway after looking at the decks is that perhaps green is a little strong compared to the other colors. I'll be looking at ways to tweak that.

In general, I think I need to start making some switches that lowers the power level a notch, that don't clog early turn sequencing, and continue to keep the flasher aspects of the cube in check. Any suggestions or substitutions you have are welcomed.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm going to go back to what do you want from the format, and what kind of magic do you want to play? Right now your oath players complaints really summarize the effects of the split, and the fundamental message you're being told is that this looks like a poorly designed power cube to them--as rough as that might be to hear.
 
I'll try to consolidate my thoughts about my goals for this cube....

I think the thing that draws me most to that 2000-2002 era of magic was the introduction of so many new ways to win a game of magic, while ultimately lacking in the strength of support to really go bananas with everything. This is highlighted in the Oath archetype.

What I like most about the game now is the degree of nuance that is available, and the way cards can interact in all zones of the game(hand, graveyard, exile, deck, and battlefield). I feel like the hellbent archetype (while too strong in its current stage) is an archetype that exemplifies this to me.

That's the simple duality I keep coming back to. Crafting an environment that can support decks like both of those. Beyond that I'm aimlessly making decisions. I feel like I lack an understanding as to how to create a robust framework for decision-making.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'll try to consolidate my thoughts about my goals for this cube....

I think the thing that draws me most to that 2000-2002 era of magic was the introduction of so many new ways to win a game of magic, while ultimately lacking in the strength of support to really go bananas with everything. This is highlighted in the Oath archetype.

What I like most about the game now is the degree of nuance that is available, and the way cards can interact in all zones of the game(hand, graveyard, exile, deck, and battlefield). I feel like the hellbent archetype (while too strong in its current stage) is an archetype that exemplifies this to me.

That's the simple duality I keep coming back to. Crafting an environment that can support decks like both of those. Beyond that I'm aimlessly making decisions. I feel like I lack an understanding as to how to create a robust framework for decision-making.

Generally, what I do is establish a transcendent, or overarching goal, and thats easily the most important thing. Once you have a destination that you are trying to reach, than you can nest the things that you need to do to achieve that destination in descending order beneath it. This creates a basic structure that you can proceed moving forward with, and you'll run into problems, be wrong about stuff, have to reconfigure the route, but that initial establishment of purpose is what I've been challenging you to face. I've seen flickers of it, but never seen it given name and articulated.

And its a real question. Designing a cube is a lot of time and effort, and you have to justify the exertion of that time and effort--otherwise why not just copy someone else's format? Unless you have some sort of higher goal thats capable of justifying all of the trouble, its very difficult to motivate yourself forward to achieve that you want to achieve. And whatever that goal is, should be something thats best for everyone--for you, your playgroup, and the broader cube community.

If we have no idea what we want to achieve or where we even want to go, the effect is paralyzing. The act of achievement means moving in a direction, and if you don't know where you want to go, how can you pick a direction that isn't just aimless wandering, concluding with a return to the familiar and the safe? By knowing your goal, you can organize reality hierarchically to assess whether its component parts are keeping with reaching the place where you've determined you are supposed to be.

Once you establish your goal, I think you'll find that your perspective begins to naturally align itself in keeping with that goal, much of the irrelevant things will begin to fall to the wayside, and you'll become hyper-attuned to the tools that will either get you there, or get in your way.

You have to be able to design a conceptual framework to exist in, otherwise you're just off in an overwhelming wild, which is unbearable, before returning back to the safety of someone else's conceptual framework, and feeling bad about yourself.

And that btw is what I feel from this cube: you've been out there doing your own thing, and got lost, and this format represents a return to a largely power max card index that is familiar and safe (and perhaps some of your drafters pressured you towards, out of impatience) with a few residual flickers of your personality still apparent, but which the oath player is now threatening to completely squash out.
 
All of this speaks to my sensibilities and habits as a visual artist. I've always made art within a conceptual framework, but never translated that to magic. I've had a "feeling" I've been working towards with the cube, but I've never really been able to articulate it fully....or at least I've never took the time to.

My constant gravitation towards power maxing is usually a reaction to feeling as if there's a compression filter over my cube. The highs have been lowered, and the lows have been heightened to the point it all feels very congested and midrange. I get this feeling like the depth of interaction is being choked out. Every list I begin eventually creeps up as a result of this feeling. Sometimes this has to do with the cmc of the cube creeping up with the lower power cards screwing with sequencing, or due to the absence of big flashy plays and dynamism.
 
Current working version:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/38686

This version is focusing on the interplay between all zones with increased graveyard interaction. I removed a lot of the strongest disruption (Opposition, Thoughtseize, Winter Orb, Balance, etc). The Removal and Draw suites were also toned down. Archetype cards that didn't immediately support my primary goals were cut (Phyrexian Processor, Pyromancer's Goggles, Garruk Wildspeaker, etc). The multicolor man-lands are also gone.

Excited about these cards:



Functioning as a pseudo replacement for Avaricious Dragon and Stormbind. A big archetype enabler for Hellbent and Loam decks.



Replacing Kiora, the Crashing Wave. Being less generically powerful, and more in keeping with my general simic strategy.



To play with the increase of creatures with activated abilities. Foresee this being a great roleplayer for several archetypes.



As a combo enabler and a volatile control finisher in the vein of Frenetic Efreet.




All in all I'm liking the direction this is heading. Although, a new concern of mine is the high degree of complexity of most of the cube. I may begin to look for simplified alternatives where possible. Funny timing with the card elegance thread that just popped back up.
 
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