General Inspiration: Environment and Card Design Ideas

Lucre

Lucre

I like to get some good unfinished chunks of ideas to play with, it tends to get me thinking in the way other people do and appreciating other parts of the game I might not normally notice. I thought I'd ask my riptide pals what parts of magic really get them going and what they feel like they are looking for.

  • What are some types of magic cards you really like? What would you like to see more of in terms of cards and environmental dynamics? (Wow was extort ever a sweet eye opener for me, I'm very impressed by how proactive and multidimensional most modern decks are)
  • What are some holes you find in modern design? What are some abilities you wish you would see more often? Angles you find are under developed? (I've always been sad lands felt like a bit of a plain, dull, concession in your deck, landfall and cycling helps but boy would I like lands to be more interactive and the sequencing to have more interest to it)
  • What are some types of cards you feel like could be better supported or would be better if the environment was right for them? (Theros did a fair, if rather blatant, job of supporting combat trickery)
  • What are some straight flavor things you'd like to see more of or want to get deeper treatment? (Tutors really feel cool to me, some extra-dimensional jerk whispers in my ear and now I have the key to reanimation? I think I share CML’s enjoyment of the depiction of clergy and religion in magic)
  • Where are some areas you're really happy with the interaction between flavor and mechanic or environment? (Evoke creatures are sweet, those monsters can also be iconic spells! Memory Lapse feels like it really got it right. Conversely wtf does a magma jet have to do with scrying?)
Anyway just want to have an area to talk around the things we design or might want to design and not just have to center all discussion around critiquing samples. My questions are probably not extensive enough but I thought I'd have to put something down to get the ball rolling.
 
Lucre

Lucre

I guess I should probably get this engine running too:

1) I don't think I've been discrete about the fact I really wish more colours consistently had more access to draw selection and had greater impact on what sort of gas they had to work with on their turn. Pockets of scry and looting are pretty sweet but the wounds still feel pretty bare.

Some formats don't have these problems and everyone has access to fixing that lets them play super sweet and low commitment blue spells, but I'm not exactly sure that angle is the best solution to this. It would be really cool if colours were more capable of that sort of thing in their own way that had advantages over blue at times etc. The idea of certain colours being so apparent as enabler colours that give your strategy legs is only attractive to a certain extent.

2) It always felt dumb to me that we had all these wizards running around and creatures that are associated very closely with particular activities and actions but there seems to be such a separation between our iconic critter and the spell that encapsulates the things it is known for doing.

I know we get lots of dorks that sacrifice to counter a spell or deal damage when they enter the battlefield but I feel like it is so silly how reliant our in game conceptions of these things are on attacking, blocking or entering a zone. I'm so down to have spells that get better if you have a wizard out, or wizards that can be cycled to counter spells or more gravecrawlery or incarnation sort of guys that are capturing the spirit in something outside of the normal routes. Like when my ghost dies it can probably haunt the shit out of something via some graveyard ability right? Can't I tell my dragon to burn down some land of his without hiring it for a extended position in my attacking and blocking division?
 
anotak

anotak

"What are some types of magic cards you really like?"
i really like cards that:
- convert one resource into another.
- make you think of something as a resource that isn't normally. landfall makes you think of the timing of your land drop much more. dredge is neat in this aspect except like the constructed Dredge Deck(s) aren't the pinnacle of well-loved and commonly-accepted-to-be-fun magic. i enjoy it a lot though. when i play edh cockatrice i run a dredge deck which isnt good but edh isnt about being good or something
- create situations dense in actual decisions as opposed to mathy pseudodecisions
- i like cards that create "symmetric" effects that with a tiny bit of work and/or good play are not-so-secretly not symmetric at all.
- similarly cards that let you turn a disadvantage into an advantage
- require both players to use good timing/sequencing to both play with the card and play around the card (legacy example: wastelanding on upkeep to mitigate it getting stifleed). this extends to pretty much everything involving counterspells
- have more than one mode (charms/commands/cycling/split/fuse/evoke/hybrid). stuff like qasali pridemage counts. this also extends to weird often unintended uses of cards like wastelanding yourself to hit threshold on your nimble mongoose. this also extends not just to play but drafting because it means player Alice will want card A for its 1st mode and player Bob will want card A for its 2nd mode. bestow is a good mechanic in this aspect too bad all the bestow cards in THS so far are butt except for boon satyr. speaking of weird uses, my cube currently has Jungle Lion with bestow for {G}{G} and someone realized you can bestow on your opponents creatures to keep them from blocking which is awesome side effect.
- i like cards that make you call something out, like cabal therapy, void, and even garbage like liar's pendulum.
- i like spells that are free or have a way to be discounted. frantic search is one of my favorite cards of all time. affinity as a mechanic is pretty cool its just horribly dumb that a bunch of colorless spells have affinity for the same type of colorless spell.
- grim lavamancer
- fact or fiction

"What would you like to see more of in terms of cards and environmental dynamics?"
in terms of cube, i want to see more cards that intersect with more than one type of deck while also being decision dense.
power-level considerations aside, i think deathrite shaman is a good example of this because it functions as 1) grave hate, 2) ramp, 3) a clock, 4) a 1/2 for 1 which is normally irrelevant but once other aspects make it playable this part is really dumb, 5) an elf, 6) lifegain and therefore helping stabilize against a more aggressive opponent, 7) graveyard as a resource, 8) shamans i guess but that only exists in my cube and travis woo's modo 2mans. 9) hey both green and black can play it.
i guess really i would want to see more of the types of cards i mentioned in response to the previous question. i think most of my drafters feel pretty similar too but i don't think catering to my audience would give wotc the same profits. niche products by definition can often better serve their niche though, and custom card design can go great for cubes.

"What are some holes you find in modern design?"
i agree w/ what you said on filtering / card draw. i would like to extend that to wishing that non-blue had some playable counterspells even if they are different/restricted/worse in various ways. i was afraid to put something like that in my current cube because i didn't want to weird people out too hard.
protection from color and similar abilities are utter shit i wish wotc would stop making them.

"What are some abilities you wish you would see more often? Angles you find are under developed?"
more stuff i like i guess

"What are some types of cards you feel like could be better supported or would be better if the environment was right for them?"
honestly i think the answer to this is every card you could imagine could be better. i'm not sure if every card could be made worth existing though.

"What are some straight flavor things you'd like to see more of or want to get deeper treatment?"
more rogues
more black faeries. faeries are seriously malicious trickster characters in a lot of myth and fantasy, it sort of surprises me that most people think of tinkerbell whent hey think of faeries
more stuff that feels technological / borderline science fiction or science fantasy or whatever you want to call it. i think NPH is the closest modern wotc will come to that though.


"Where are some areas you're really happy with the interaction between flavor and mechanic or environment?"
i honestly dont know. feels bad to answer like that but i don't think in terms of that very much. i think innistrad did a great job. i like stuff like stromkirk noble's decoration text i guess, but in the same way, baneslayer angel's decoration text ruined a ton of cards that could've been standard playable
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Sadly, of the (what, 4? 5?) people who post about custom cards, at least one (me) doesn't really give thought to sweet environment concerns, since I'm much more focused about hole filling balancing cards.

you might have gotten responses from both people interested in environment design :p
 
Lucre

Lucre

Sorry guys I was like kinda too busy the last week or so. Plus depressed with some of the feedback. I'll be back in better form here soon but it's just a little too late tonight.
I've been thinking about transmute, and that means I'll be pooping out more bad ideas and questions about synergy and design direction soon.
 
Lucre

Lucre

Chris Taylor said:
Sadly, of the (what, 4? 5?) people who post about custom cards, at least one (me) doesn't really give thought to sweet environment concerns, since I'm much more focused about hole filling balancing cards.

you might have gotten responses from both people interested in environment design :p
Click to expand...
Christopher, talking about hole filling is exactly what this thread was made for.
 
Changling Bob

Changling Bob

I meant to do this, but haven't had the motivation to do introspection or large posts for the last couple of weeks. Its on my to-do.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Lucre said:
Christopher, talking about hole filling is exactly what this thread was made for.
Click to expand...
Well kinda. Different holes I guess (Dirty!)

I'm more like "I need a blue 2 drop that supports spells matter" or like "I need a white removal spell that isn't op and costs 1", and less like "Man dredge was awesome. Moar dredge cards!"

Narrower I guess.
 
Lucre

Lucre

dude post those! and any things you think did it well or things you wish would be done with spells matter dorks!
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
It also doesn't help that BNG recycles quite a few of the mechanics from theros, so we're not really having the "Oh man what could be done with mechanic X" rush that normally comes with preview season.

Inspired is without sarcasm or hyperbole a joke among magic players ("Yeah, but you have to untap with it"), and tribute is not far off, (Punisher cards are kinda the butt of jokes as well, but there's less of them than "cards you have to untap with" so it's a less known joke)

Like when Rise of Eldrazi preview season was in full swing people at MTGS were all like "OMFG REBOUND GOTTA MAKE ALL THE THINGS" and neither tribute nor inspired (ironically) inspires me the same way
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Alright, jeez. Spells matter dump incoming :p

Young Pyromancer is

The Real Blue Sun's Zenith U
instant
Search your library for an instant or sorcery card and exile it. Until end of turn, you may play that card.
Shuffle Arcane Wellspring into its owner’s library.

Calcite Hatchling U1
Creature - Turtle
Spells that target Calcite Hatchling cost 1 more.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, you may switch Calcite Hatchling’s power and toughness until end of turn.
1/3

Master of Cantrips U1
Creature - Human Wizard
When Master of Cantrips enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard with converted mana cost 1 gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is 0. (If it has X in its mana cost, X is 0)
2/1

Preening Famaliar U
Creature - Bird Wizard
Flying
When you cast an instant or sorcery spell, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card.
It is the true mark of intelligence to entertain a belief without accepting it first
1/1

Spiketail Famaliar U1
Creature - Drake
Flying
Instant and sorcery spells you cast cost U less to cast.
2/1

Young Archivist U1
Creature - Human Wizard
When you cast an instant or sorcery spell, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card.
2/1

Mighty Sorcerer! 1 {U/R}{U/R}
Haste
T: Mighty Sorcerer! deals 1 damage to target creature or player
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, you may untap Mighty Sorcerer!.
0/1
Gelectrode is almost good enough

Also, more on the idea of "Value Looting", I think the key is stuff with a cheaper flashback than CC
Like:

Contemplate UU3
Sorcery
Draw 2 cards
Flashback UU

Meditation U2 (This is probably a good enabler card)
Instant
Draw 2, discard 1
Flashback U

Unnatural Deluge UU1
Instant
Return target nonland permanent to its owners hand
Flashback U
(Alternatively, U1, madness U?)

This combined with some additional looters and faithless looting could have some nice brews going. The problem I see is that there's basically one card in cubes that actually supports "value looting" and that's lingering souls. Roar of the wurm is okay, but I'm not sure a downsideless 6/6 for 3G would be in most cubes (some because it's not good enough and some because it's just boring)

Im not sure if there's much there, and I think my blue section is going to be reasonably mono control for a bit while everything settles, but yeah.
Have at it
 
Lucre

Lucre

Dude talk about what you are trying to accomplish! Talk about what is missing as far as you are concerned, I'm trying to have an area where everything isn't example based discussion for custom stuff.

Lets see a thesis bucko.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Awww but I love example based discussion :p

I guess I'm trying to branch out on the sort of "Threat light" spells jamming deck you can see sometimes in legacy with the RUG delver list. (But without the whole "Counter literally everything you do until my single threat kills you" approach)
Young Pyromancer has been a really great step in the right direction: it's fine in less spell dense decks (Mono Reg aggro is hardly a 5 creature 18 spell creature most of the time) but really does shine when it adds a little bit of pressure to every burn spell you cast, or every counter, or every bounce spell, or whatever.
It's also a lot less "all in" than previous cards like Kiln Fiend. They may preform fine in constructed, but I'm less of a fan of the storm like "everything in one turn then kill you" style of play, even if it was made more interactive due to the involvement of a creature (though only a single one)

A few of these cards are built to address problems the spells matter deck. The two "loot when you play a spell" guys are there to shore up the problem when you draw all spells and no guys, and you just run out of steam, whereas spiketail famaliar (make spells cheaper) and Mighty Sorcerer! (gelectrode but good) are there to address the issue that this deck sometimes takes a while to set up properly. The looting on spells guys might run into the problem that you do need spells to dig, so they won't help with the "All dudes" half of that problem. Perhaps they could trigger on any spell, not just instants and sorceries? That might make them too attractive to other decks though.

the The Real Slim Shady Blue Sun's Zenith is there to show that different threats have different answers, and because green sun's zenith is awesome. Sometimes you have a burn spell when you need a counterspell, and sometimes you have a draw spell when you need a bounce spell. Maybe there's room for a sort of spell-centric survival of the fittest variant?

The last few cards (The "Value looting" stable) are a bit of an experiment. Someone suggested this as a direction for blue to go in when they found out I'd tripled up on Looter Il-Kor, but upon looking there really wasn't anything there. There's a single non horrible blue madness card (Circular Logic) and almost nothing with flashback equal to it's mana cost, or lower (Deep Analysis).

I'm a little unwilling to let go of the loot on attack aspect of looter il-kor, so circular logic is out. And drawing cards so you can draw more cards is not a problem blue likes having. I figured I'd take a stab at it
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Alright, so I know that's a lot of information to process, so let's take it one step at a time.
How do we feel about these 3?

Calcite Hatchling U1
Creature - Turtle
Spells that target Calcite Hatchling cost 1 more.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, you may switch Calcite Hatchling’s power and toughness until end of turn.
1/3

Master of Cantrips U1
Creature - Human Wizard
When Master of Cantrips enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard with converted mana cost 1 gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is 0. (If it has X in its mana cost, X is 0)
2/1

Spiketail Famaliar U1
Creature - Drake
Flying
Instant and sorcery spells you cast cost U less to cast.
2/1
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Chris Taylor said:
Alright, so I know that's a lot of information to process, so let's take it one step at a time.
How do we feel about these 3?

Calcite Hatchling U1
Creature - Turtle
Spells that target Calcite Hatchling cost 1 more.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, you may switch Calcite Hatchling’s power and toughness until end of turn.
1/3

Master of Cantrips U1
Creature - Human Wizard
When Master of Cantrips enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard with converted mana cost 1 gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is 0. (If it has X in its mana cost, X is 0)
2/1

Spiketail Famaliar U1
Creature - Drake
Flying
Instant and sorcery spells you cast cost U less to cast.
2/1
Click to expand...

These all seem printable, at least in terms of power level, but Master of Cantrips is a but wonky. It'd probably be fun to play with though, and it has a close enough tie to Snapcaster that people won't be put off by its design.
 
anotak

anotak

how good is Asphyxiate's effect
is it too unrestrictive at 1B instant

i'm interested in what a tapping/untapping theme looks like in cube form

i need to try playing w/ some BNG cards i guess

edit: also i wonder about bestow w/ negative effects, yes you can bestow your opponent's creatures. my cube has jungle lion with bestow {G}{G} which can be used to prevent an opponent's creature from blocking
 
anotak

anotak

have any of you thought about flavor during cube design, obviously not as a primary concern. not very easy using mostly default cards, i feel like the only non-custom cube where it could exist and not just be a 1-3 block cube is like a Dominaria Cube or something just because that world had so many sets.

but for my next cube it'd make more sense to have like a unified flavor if i'm doing an all-custom cube
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Bestow is actually super good. not as good as nyxborn eidolon would have you believe, but still.
That bestow cost probably wants to be GG1 or G3, given the flexibility
 
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