General It could happen in any number of formats

Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
The decks were so much fun tonight that we played a few games after the tournament was over (I won the draft 3 - 0).

1) Against losing finalist Maxime Heylen (of recent CFB fame losing to Marijn Lybaert, also in the finals of a tournament), he opened T2 Jitte, T3 Man-o'-War bounding my Dark Confidant. "This is game", I thought. I had no way to get his creature off the table, but I did play Tangle Wire to keep him off of equip mana for a while. His Jitte got counters on it 4 times, as he holocausted my board while I fought through his creatures + Moorland Haunt. Eventually he stabilizes at 10 life. I play Hell's Thunder and pump it with Slayers' Stronghold. Hit him to 4. He untaps. Hallowed Fountain (4th island), Vedalken Shackles, go. Fuck.

Top deck Wasteland. "Fuck your Jitte, fuck your Shackles, fuck your Fountain". Unearth Hell's Thunder. Bask in eternal glory.

2) Against the 2 - 1 Pod deck, opponent is at 9, with a new Deathrite Shaman in play, Kitchen Finks on top of his deck (thanks Volrath's Stronghold...). He attacks me with Flametongue Kavu and Skinrender because they won't be blocking. My board is Grim Lavamancer and Thalia, six lands, Keldon Marauders in hand. I have to kill him this turn. Untap. Draw Boros Charm. My brain is shooting fireworks. 9 damage! But I need him to not block my Thalia with Deathrite Shaman. Casually turn Thalia sideways. "No blocks". 7. Boros Charm. 3. Keldon Marauders. 2. Grim Lavamancer. 0.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I got out-teched tonight when my finals opponent played all basics, then used Zealous Conscripts to steal my Wasteland and blow up another land, locking me out of a color.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Erm, maybe. But that was the scooping point anyways so it didn't really make a difference. I suppose a mistake is still a mistake though.
 
Lucre

Lucre

I just don't understand spell pierce in your format but I guess if there are tonnes of walkers again it might be okay.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Spell Pierce is pretty solid, it's the tiny opportunity cost of keeping (U) up that makes it fun
 
Lucre

Lucre

You know exactly what I'm talking about Eric. I'm not hating on you right now I'm just saying you removed other control haters in a recent sweep to give those decks a hand, while you often cite how bad remand is against gravecrawler decks and aggro decks when we talk about revamping blue's counters while that thing has been conveniently left out of the revamping blue conversations.

We are talking about the same cube where removal spells are already admittedly heavily regulated. It just seemed super weird to me whenever I saw that card, it's the kind of card you print when you are trying to regulate an instant and sorcery heavy format or weird cheap combo decks.

Are the spell decks the ones you are being protective against eric? I guess so long as most of the planeswalkers seem more like aggro/ midranged cards than control cards "negates" might be fine. I'll keep it in the MD next time I end up taking it to see how many Ajanis or Griffin guides or Liliana Vess or Spear of heliods or bestows or overruns I catch with it. I assume I'm keeping it in (or siding it in) against molten rain decks naturally. I could be wrong about it, hitting koth or chandra sounds like it would make life a lot easier. Just imagining my Austere Command, Dissipate, Eyeblight's Ending, Utopia Spraw, Far // Away or compulsive research hit by that thing make me wanna get a drink though.

Omg someone is gonna counter my toxic deluge some day when I really need it but I don't wanna cast it and I am totally gonna cry.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Lucre said:
You know exactly what I'm talking about Eric.
Click to expand...

No, I have no idea what you're talking about, Lucas.

In actual fact, I often don't have any idea where your rants out of left field originate from.

Like Alfonzo points out, Spell Pierce counters about 43% of the non-land spells in my cube, for a convenient cost of {U}. Given that there are a ton of removal spells in every colour to handle creatures, it doesn't seem that far-fetched to throw in a couple that handle non-creatures. There are worse things you could do with that blue mana.
 
Lucre

Lucre

Seriously? Weren't we just talking about you cutting control hate? You don't understand any of my previous post? This is feeling intentional.

This counterspell is, like, not helping your control decks at all and those are the ones you are trying to help. Didn't any of what I said make sense?

You've been complaining for ages about how blue feels stuck and control isn't really happening and red and gravecrawler decks seem very strong. Why keep including the control hoser counterspell? Why cube negates after you decimate the equipment count and have so few planeswalkers decks can lean on to win games on their own? Like I could see spell pierce being great in the format was like legacy with all kinds of cheap spells and small battles being fought and non interactive combos to disrupt but it just looks like it's there to make your austere command and your oblivion ring and your compulsive research player feel real bad.

It just seems so weird that creature decks seem so much better already and then you don't get why throwing in negates seems off. Bestow and all the midranged or aggro focused walkers might prove me wrong though. Still maybe control is having issues because it's fighting against Thalias and Grave Crawlers, Bestow creatures, land destruction and Spell Pierces etc while control is leaning on cards like Eyeblights Ending, Oblivion Ring, Elspeth Suns Champion, Austere Command, Jace Berelene etc. All while theres a set of Tec-Edge available for anyone who doesn't feel like being in 3 colours. It does look like the deck is stacked right? I know control decks can play creatures too but the good ones for control decks to sub in for removal (Block well early - net cards) are usually very hotly contested and you don't really want to be building the format where the control decks are just the ones with the best blocks do you?

Like if you are going to make control decks more reliant on 3 and 6 mana effects it's important to let them regularly be able to resolve these things in time for them to be relevant. I know there are 4 mana wraths too but like stagger shock those cards never stick around and you can't rely on drawing your one copy every game, you have to lean on your elspeth more than you'd like to admit.

But I'm probably ranting now and have written off conveying any understanding right?
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Eric Chan said:
No, I have no idea what you're talking about, Lucas.

In actual fact, I often don't have any idea where your rants out of left field originate from.

Like Alfonzo points out, Spell Pierce counters about 43% of the non-land spells in my cube, for a convenient cost of {U}. Given that there are a ton of removal spells in every colour to handle creatures, it doesn't seem that far-fetched to throw in a couple that handle non-creatures. There are worse things you could do with that blue mana.
Click to expand...


this conversation bores me. i am hijacking this thread to start a discussion of "how many creatures do you have by proportion of spells" in your cube

mine: 207/377 ≈ 55.0%

typical grim mongolith cube: 48%-50%

discuss
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Alright. I think I'm going to cut Duress. That spell wasn't doing anything for anybody here.

Spell Pierce is sweet, though. I didn't understand why Jason and CML liked it before, but I'm on board now. That one's sticking around for the long haul.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I am also a spell pierce convert. In fact, I liked it so much I took a copy of remove soul and sharpied it into a creature spell targeting version of spell pierce.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

I hate Spell Pierce personally. Conditional counters suck because they too often end up useless (especially true in a slower format). Maybe I'm just unlucky, but every time I have spell pierce my opponent drops a dude and when he doesn't, he can pay the 2. Fuck that spell. I need my early counters to actually counter stuff.

Force Spike is only good early and only because it hits everything (which happens often enough to justify it's inclusion). The only other conditional counter I run is Miscalculation because at least you can cycle it when it becomes useless. I don't even run Mana Leak (which is decent but still can piss me off).
 
Lucre

Lucre

It's a sweet card in most peoples cubes. Especially because it counters artifact mana and you wana be in blue anyway right?

CML:
Creatures are waaaay less of a big deal in most traditional cubes which is always weird for me to remember. I think it's because their removal tends to be only the sort that is super streamlined and their curves tend to follow the go over or go under principle in jason's last article. You might have died to a big creature but I'm sure any big idiot would have done when ramped out at that rate / other unlikely circumstance. It's also rare to see a shortage of available big idiots if you are out to get some.

Then there are the decks that take advantage of the hiccups you get when setting up big ramp decks or 5 colour control decks where you just get all the small creatures and you can kill their coalition relic or your thalia/tithe keeps them off their plays just long enough. There is no shortage of those cards because it's really rare you have to seriously fight someone for your monocoloured aggro cards unless there is some guy taking your blade splicer for his UW flash deck etc.

Then there is the sorta in between archetype that is excited to cast balance or upheaval or whatever so it can kill you with whatever happens to have been laying around. It does something big, that isn't winning the game, so your opponent will have to lose to just about anything. Love me some crucible decks.

Man I think I'll show up to the grim monolith cube session tomorrow. I'm getting all riled up to cast Armageddon and cross my fingers a lot.

Cards that scare people in monolith cubes [Put a check mark beside all that can be spell pierced]

  • Sulfuric Vortex
  • Sword of ___________
  • Jitte
  • Clamp
  • First Pick Planeswalkers
  • Mind Twist
  • Hymn
  • Sinkhole
  • Power 9 in it's entirety
  • Whatever has gotten snapcastered
  • Demonic Tutor
  • Artifact Fast Mana
  • Upheaval
  • Tinker etc
  • Balance/Wildfire etc
  • An Embarrassment of burn spells
  • Control Magics
  • Reanimation Spells / Engines
  • Bonfire
  • Losing your reanimation / tinker target for 1-2 mana
  • Stripmines
  • Goblin Guide
  • True Name Nemesis
  • Curving out with all 1 drops
  • Great Lotus Cobra draws
so about 5 /23 are pretty spell pierce resistant
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Eric Chan said:
Alright. I think I'm going to cut Duress. That spell wasn't doing anything for anybody here.

Spell Pierce is sweet, though. I didn't understand why Jason and CML liked it before, but I'm on board now. That one's sticking around for the long haul.
Click to expand...


i should point out that with 55% creatures i still always maindeck Duress here and it's still always good. never whiffed with it
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I feel like the irony is that Spell Pierce is wretched in Grim Monolith cubes, despite the plethora of targets, because those cubes tend to be slow as molasses. You might as well just run Negate there. Riptide cubes, on the other hand, tend to pack a ton of creatures, and yet Spell Pierce is at its best in these fast environments, where mana is tight and every inch is contested.
 
Lucre

Lucre

I haven't always found that to be the case Eric, but for the most part it meant my opponent would be slower than me, which didn't really bother me. It reminds me of Spell Snare-ing signets hahahahha. I'll trade the ability to hit their Dryad Sophisticate for the ability to hit their Wildfire in that format. You do really wana hit the Coalition Relic with it though, not every deck is relying on Upheaval or Natural Order, sometimes you miss your chance and you don't get to say anything about their grave titan.

It's just as good for protecting your own titan though. And that's sorta my problem with it. I can see how hot it would be in cubes with paths and bolts and vendettas and GFTT but it seems mean to hit your opponent's Crib Swap or Detention Sphere or Hinder with this card. I mean the poor guy's just trying his best. Maybe we could add the clause that it could only hit good cards in your cube [/in peasant] so it was still good for stopping bestow creatures and bitterblossom but it didn't make the guys reaching for barter in blood feel like a total lummox. (Not that I don't looooove barter in blood, it's just kinda bad vs recursive dudes, tokens, elf ramp, red decks etc)
 
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