Jesse's Proliferate/Devotion/Miracles cube

[Jesse G]

First of all here's the cubetutor link:
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/8691
A couple important notes about the list:

• There are three custom cards, for which the cubetutor list simply has standins. I have the text for these cards below. Gravecrawler is actually Restless dead. Putrid imp is actually Torpid Imp, and Mutant's prey is actually Mutant's ambush
• The Scry lands are counted as having basic land types, and thus are fetchable.

This is my first attempt to build a cube from the ground up with a focus on interesting archetypes, and synergy, rather than fun individual card choices. This list is brand new, and in constant flux. I've only drafted it a couple times, and have yet to try it with the full 8.
I decided not to worry too much about card availability, price, or even existence. I'm happy to use proxies, and I have a few custom cards for effects that wouldn't really be possible otherwise. But for the most part, I'm trying to stick to actual printed cards. The only custom cards I currently have included are these:
Restless Dead:

Spoiler

Restless Dead
Creature- Zombie
Morbid — You may cast Restless Dead from your graveyard if a creature died this turn.
1/1

I wanted a gravecrawler type effect that was a little better on defense and doesn't require a large zombie package. This guy reads very strong, but he still sucks at blocking and dies to wraths . He hasn't been super powerful so far, and actually might need to be a 2/1 like his daddy.

Torpid Imp:

Spoiler

Torpid Imp
Creature- Imp
As long as your devotion to black is 4 or greater, Torpid imp gets +1/+1 and gains flying.
1/3

There just aren't enough devotion guys to make this archetype work, and even fewer that help you survive till it's time for gray merchant. The power level here is quite high, and I might need to tweak the devotion threshold..

Mutant's Ambush:

Spoiler

Mutant's Ambush
Instant
Proliferate, then target creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it fights target creature you don't control.

I love this card so far. Again, proliferate is a main theme, but there just aren't enough cards with proliferate to make it work. So far, mutant's ambush has been awesome. It's an instant speed proliferater/combat trick/removal spell. The power level is high, but not unfair.

Here are the basic archetypes I'm actively attempting to support. For simplicity's sake, I started this project by identifying a basic gameplan for each two color combination:

: Miracles control
--miracles + Brainstorm type stuff. Judge Unworthy is a great removal spell for this deck. I'd like to maybe design a couple more custom miracles, so that this deck isn't so one dimensional. There really aren't that many options from AVR..
: Ramp
--urban evolutions, blue control elements and green fatties. I feel like this deck, while easily supported, doesn't have as much of an exciting mechanical core as some of the other archetypes. I'd love to hear if anyone has some thoughts on how to remedy this. Maybe some kind of 5 color/ domain thing?
: Spells matter tempo
--Delver of secrets, remand, stormblood berserker. Fast UR decks are an old favorite in my playgroup, and I really want to make this archetype work. It seems fun, but currently might not be strong enough.
: Devotion and clones
--Gray merchant of asphodel, Torpid Imp, Evil twin. This is a weird one, but it just sounds so fun. Copy your BB guys for super powered gray merchant triggers etc.
: Tokens+anthems
--Selesnya guildmage, Angel of Salvation, captain's call. This is pretty simple, and i'd love to hear suggestions on how to give this archetype more depth (maybe some cool custom convoke cards?).
: Battalion aggro
--Signal pest, Firemane Avenger, Mogg War Marshal. Play dudes, turn them sideways. This one strikes me as hard to balance, since it seems nigh unbeatable against the non-sweeper archetypes, but has trouble winning at all through a single, well timed wrath. Maybe there's some way to slow it down a bit, but give it more options for card advantage?
: Grindy sweepers and lifegain control
--Drown in Sorrow, Blood artist,Torpid imp. Grindy control, underworld connections seems super important for this deck as well as the Devotion deck, but it's so hard to beat. Is there a similar option that's a good deal less powerful?
: Counters matter midrange/ramp
--Mutant's Ambush, Volt charge, Renegade Krasis. Proliferate! Undying, Evolve, Thallids... All that fun stuff. I've wanted to draft 'the proliferate deck' for about as long as I've been cubing. This archetype seems awesome so far, and proliferate is fun enough that it's kinda bleeding into other colors, mostly blue.
: Dredge/self mill
--Splinterfright,mulch,Stinkweed Imp. Basically a powered up version of the spider spawning deck from Innistrad limited. This archetype needs work though. It's too hard to fill up the grave with creatures fast enough for your boneyard wurms and such to be bigger than the competition... I think it would help if I included more cards that like to be in the graveyard. Retrace? flashback?
: sacrifice shenanigans. combo? control?
Tymaret, the Murder King, Mogg War Marshal, Traitorous blood. I have yet to see this archetype in action, but it looks super fun. More to come on how this actually plays..

If you have any questions about why I included specific cards etc, feel free to make me explain myself. Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated! Don't feel the need to sugarcoat anything. Tell me it sucks! Tell me it's awesome! Suggest i cut a card, a package, an archetype, whatever! Because I'm using proxies and I'm super early in development, nothing is set in stone.... except for gray merchant... god do i love that card, and I'll be damned if I see my foil sitting on the bench

 

[Eric Chan]

Hey Jesse, welcome back! I remember you as one of the very early members of this forum, back when we barely had any activity. Glad you've stuck with us for so long!

I gave your list a look, and I like what you're doing with the doubling and tripling up on your anchor cards to solidify your themes. I have a bunch of suggestions and questions, though, for areas that look like they could use a little tightening up. For the miracles package: how do you plan to set up your draws? I'd have expected to see at least one Top, perhaps two, and some more cheap blue cantrips. Though I guess double Serum Visions counts. For the sacrifice archetype in BR, I would recommend Bloodthrone Vampire over Bloodflow Connoisseur, from personal experience. One mana makes all the difference in the world, as does the extra buff, even if temporary. For the UB devotion theme, does blue bring anything to the table? I get the distinct feeling that going hard on black would be the optimal path for a drafter to take. I really like the battalion idea for RW, but I feel like Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession might both be overkill for your generally lower-powered list. Those cards are pretty annoying to fight through, especially for fair aggro decks. In GB, the self-mill archetype usually works better as a grindy, attrition-based value deck than as a big beater deck, so I might recommend an additional Spider Spawning and a Worm Harvest or two, along with a Life from the Loam as a mill and recursion engine. The deck is fairly parasitic, though, with lots of cards that no other archetype will fight over - hello Mulch! - so I might be careful about going overboard here. Finally, Keyrunes are almost universally prettttty bad. Could I interest you in some generic mana rocks instead?

Despite my concerns, this list looks like a lot of fun, and I like the careful and thoughtful use of singleton breaking. Let us know how your drafts go!

 

[anotak]

yo the title of this thread does a lot worse job selling this than the actual list lol. i read the title and i immediately said "that sounds AWFUL" but now i'm looking through your list and its pretty sweet.
some wacky cards i bet make this a real blast to draft. double evil twin? wort? ulasht? cool stuff. i wanna try this.

double putrid imp? in my experience this card was a bit terrible even in my original lower-power environment but i would love to see it do work, because i like the card.

my own complaint perhaps is that i don't like tying mechanical identity to 2c guilds im tired of that but im possibly in the minority on this.
i don't have any good suggestions offhand but it looks real cool.

 

[Dom Harvey]

how dare you, the title is all of my favourite things

 

[Chris Taylor]

yo the title of this thread does a lot worse job selling this than the actual list lol. i read the title and i immediately said "that sounds AWFUL" but now i'm looking through your list and its pretty sweet.
some wacky cards i bet make this a real blast to draft. double evil twin? wort? ulasht? cool stuff. i wanna try this.

double putrid imp? in my experience this card was a bit terrible even in my original lower-power environment but i would love to see it do work, because i like the card.

my own complaint perhaps is that i don't like tying mechanical identity to 2c guilds im tired of that but im possibly in the minority on this.
i don't have any good suggestions offhand but it looks real cool.

Putrid Imp is custom Anotak.

I see Ion Storm. I like where this is going
Maybe multiple experiment ones? Unleash creatures are also good for that theme, a la Rakdos Cackler (Who I see slotted in as a multicolor card, and he can easily just be a red card. He is easier to cast than a mono color card, after all) and Gore House Chainwalker

 

[anotak]

whoops, i saw the custom cards but then promptly forgot what they were replacing when i looked at the list

 

[Jesse G]

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback! I knew the custom card replacement thing was gonna be a problem.... maybe i should change them to something super ridiculous so there's less confusion. Crazy un-set cards or something? Anyway, Eric, I'm surprised you remember me! I think i made maybe four posts or something. Now, let me try to answer some questions: I agree that the miracles deck needs more draw sequencing, but then again, I think it needs more miracles too... I tried to keep away from repeated sequencers like top and mystic speculation because they tend to eat up a lot of time and mostly just make the game unwinnable for the other guy. Mystic speculation, in particular, was in the cube for exactly one game before i realized what a fun sucker it was. However, I have never once actually played with top, so my instincts could be way off here. It's probably worth a try either way. The UW deck does have quite a few ways to scry, though it often plays like a generic UW control deck with occasional Judge Unworthy Flipping Banishing Stroke awesomeness. I think there need to be a wider variety of miracles, as well as more draw sequencers. Are there any good non-brainstorm ways to put cards from your hand on top of your library that would have interesting utility in other archetypes? Of course that type of effect plays well with an abundance of fetchlands, but one of the things I'm going for when looking for cross-archetype cards is for them to have Different Uses in different archetypes. I think this is what makes drafts really interesting: cards like Greater Gargadon and Thallid Shell-dweller that play different roles in different decks. (sac outlet/reach/flood insurance for gargadon and evolver/proliferate target/early defense/token maker for Shell-dweller in case you were wondering )... but anyway, rant over, back to your questions. I think you're totally right about the bloodthrone vampire swap. Connoiseur is cute with Restless dead, but there are so many bounce/griptide effects floating around that it often just ends up being a huge waste. I'm finding that black needs more in color sac outlets for restless dead/pawn of ulamog type stuff, so i might just keep them both.. As for the devotion deck: Blue brings clone effects.... lots and lots of them. Torpid imp->Gray Merchant->Stolen Identity is an instant kill if they don't have any way to block the imp. I played this deck last night and was pretty great.(UBw, splashing for sorin, faith's fetters, and azorius charm) I think i got four gray merchant triggers one game.. The archetype currently works, but Blue is just sort of playing the support role, and merely serves as redundancy for the limited number of devotion effects. I'd love to hear any suggestions on how to mechanically link this strategy to blue more. I'll address your other concerns later tonight, but I have to go right now, and this post is turning into a novel.... By the way Chris, Double experiment ones is a sweet idea! I can't believe i didn't think of it. He was always so decidedly mediocre in my other cube that I didn't even consider doubling up. He's really been an all star so far. I'm thinking young wolf out, experiment one in. Depending on how that goes, I may even swap out Thallid for a third. Anyway, thanks again for the great input! Keep it coming!

 

[Eric Chan]

No, you're absolutely right, Top is kinda miserable and wastes a whole pile of everyone's time (because other people now have to wait for this one absurdly long game to finish). It does help the Miracles deck a lot, though.. so there's that. Crystal Ball? See Beyond to shuffle your uncastable miracles back in?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Honestly much of the other green attacking 1 drops are so horrible I might even run 4 of the little ooze. Compare how many 1 drop attackers red or white has, and see how far green falls behind.
Also, I suggust you get slightly more aquainted with the enter key That's a block of text if I ever saw one!

Custom Card Suggustions: Horribly unplayable cards

 

[Jonas]

Oh man Rampage:2!

 

[Changling Bob]

I'd much prefer a placeholder card that fulfils most of the same behaviours as the custom card, so if I forget I can still pick it up reasonably, even if I'm 'undervalueing' it by mistake.

 

[Jesse G]

I'd much prefer a placeholder card that fulfils most of the same behaviours as the custom card, so if I forget I can still pick it up reasonably, even if I'm 'undervalueing' it by mistake.

that's what I tried to do with crawler and mutants prey. Oh well. I I think I'll just leave them as is for now, and see if it keeps causing confusion..

Anyway, I kinda like Crystal ball. Unfortunately, a gatherer search revealed that brainstorm type effects are super rare, either that or I messed up my search terms. Is conch horn really the next best brainstorm? I guess see beyond and amass the components type effects are all we get. I may have to stray into custom card territory here..

Also, what do you guys think of making ghoulcaller's bell draw a card on etb. It has loads of cool interactions, and turns scrying into a fun little bluffing game, but it's just way too weak as is.

Eric:
Loam and worm harvest will definitely be making appearances soon, as pretty much the only way for the dredge deck to win currently is by getting really lucky off mulch, or by grinding them out with spider spawning type stuff. worm harvest should really help.

I'm not so sure about cutting the keyrunes yet, rakdos and azorius have been pretty good so far.

Currently, the big issue with the cube is that nobody can make the sacrifice deck come together. The rewards for getting all the pieces just aren't that overwhelming, and a lot of its best cards are valued highly in other archetypes too. I think red needs to bring more sacrifice outlets as well as sacrificial dudes to the table. There's not enough reason to branch into red if you're going for sac synergy..

 

[Jesse G]

So after forcing the RB sacrifice deck in a two person draft, i found that, though it was possible to assemble, the deck is very strange, and not really where i want to be. Restless dead was by far the most important card, and the deck kinda just played like a bad control deck without it. Games where I did have restless dead, it was like playing a bad combo deck; I just tried not to die while digging for sacrifice outlets. There was one game where i generated about 30 mana between crypt ghast and Liliana of the dark realms and machine gunned restless dead with Goblin Bombardment but that was really the only highlight.

In short, either there are some sweet BR sacrifice pieces I don't know about that are just waiting to be jammed into this cube, or I need to abandon the Red part of the sacrifice deck. Turns out BW plays that game better anyway with all its tokens, and scry to hunt for missing engine pieces. I think the grindy blood artist/tokens sacrifice cards will be much less poison principle-y than the BR combo sacrifice cards (I'm looking at you Goblin Bombardment and Furnace Celebration)

I was thinking of making some custom cards to make the sacrifice deck work, but it just feels like there's too many things that need fixing. I'd rather just reassign the archetype to BW since its been pretty good at sac synergy without any help at all, due to blood artist/skirsdag high priest and zillions of tokens.

On the bright side, unless someone changes my mind on abandoning BR sacrifice, there are a lot of open slots in the file now. What's something fun that BR can do that interacts/overlaps with Scry, Proliferate, Devotion, Tokens, Value sacrifice, Spells matter tempo, Ramp, or Battalion?? Maybe some area/mechanic where the support is almost there and one or two custom card anchors would put it over the top..

 

[Alex Blanton]

Maybe you could keep the sac outlets/enablers in BR? Tokens is its own archetype, but it, recursion, and generic red aggro intersect very well with Sac outlets and Morbid triggers. Also, you should take a look at the creatures being sacrificed. A recurrable 1/1 isn't doing any wonders for aggro or control unless it can be buffed or abused in some way, so you need to rely on Goblin Bombardment too much. Bloodghast returns from the dead at very little cost and can do plenty of work for your other black archetypes as well. Equipment makes the generally smaller recursive creatures better, so maybe something like Demonmail Hauberk or Grafted Wargear can make the archetype more flexible.

 

[Jesse G]

Alex: I think you're right about leaving the sac pieces in. At this point I've taken out the super narrow cards like furnace celebration, but the rest of the more versatile sacrifice cards are staying. Particularly cards like pawn of ulamog and blood artist have proven their worth. Demonmail hauberk is a sweet suggestion, and I'm already brewing some sweet sacrifice aggro decks in my head. Mogg war marshal and pyreheart wolf are already some of the most powerful aggro dudes though, so I suspect the hauberk will make them even more sought after. I'll have to keep an eye on that particular package.

Note on to the wall of text. Forgive my brain vomit; this forum is where I go to think this stuff through, and I find writing it all down can be very helpful.

So my immediate playgroup got 1 bigger recently, and man have we been jamming drafts. The new guy has a cube too, and although we both respect each other's design principles, they are totally different. His cube is power max singleton, and you know what? It's a blast!! Channel, sundering titan happens pretty frequently, but it's not really a problem, cause most games just play out like high powered decision dense brawls where the decks are so powerful that no board state is a lost cause. Every deck has a chance against every other deck because everyone is packing a truly broken play or two. And here is where we come to the issue at hand: my cube seems to be the exact opposite. It's too easy to create an insurmountable advantage without actually winning the game. There are so many times when the really interesting play is over by turn 5 or 6 and the rest of the game is just grinding out your advantage.

Worst of all, many matchups are totally one sided. It's very common that we do a three or four person draft, and deck A never drops a game against deck B, which in turn, never drops a game against deck C, who turns around and annihilates deck A... this is a serious problem, as it means there's a lot less real interesting magic being played. Let me emphasize, this happens A LOT. more than 50 percent of our drafts, I would wager, have these "hard lock" matches where one of us absolutely can't win a game against another deck in the draft.

The problem, I believe, in short, is that my cube ain't got swing. (Sorry )

I think the power level across my cube might just be too flat, it's not swingy enough. Part of this was on purpose, I wanted to emphasize synergy over power level, but I think it's actually resulted in some pretty boring games, despite being totally awesome to draft. I'm not really sure what to do... although I have a couple ideas. I would love any input on the following possible fixes as I have no idea which, if any, will solve my problem:

More control finishers.
I think many of the dull games and unwinnable matchups are coming from weird control decks. Black based control decks are all about gumming up the board with torpid imps and the like, then stabilizing hard with a gray merchant. However, this type of strategy is totally hopeless when it's on its back foot all game. White based control has a similar issue of relying on spirits and such top hold off the fast decks, with no real way to finish things. Aggro decks in my cube, on the other hand tend to be incredibly resilient and hard to block with pyreheart wolves, steal effects, and firemane avengers. There are a lot of boards where even a wrath wouldn't save the control player (except maybe terminus) and the reach in the format is powerful enough that it's important to stabilize early or risk getting burned out. I think the control decks need more inferno titan type cards. Plays that really spell the end for an aggressive deck, while also putting them on a clock. Diluvian primordial is a good example of what this kind of card looks like in my cube, and I think there need to be more of them. White, and blue, in particular, have pretty slim options. And not much outside of geist honored monk, and the previously mentioned primordial pull their weight.

More midrangey goodstuff
As I said, there is a lot of synergy in this cube, and it may be pushed too far. Perhaps the problem is that the archetypes are too extreme. Since you want to draft lots of cards for your archetype, the control decks end up very very controlling, and the aggro decks end up very very aggressive. Maybe if there were more solid value guys pulling people to the middle, the decks wouldn't be so polarized. I like this option, as it's something I was thinking of doing anyway. However, I have very little evidence that super polarized decks are the problem..

More bombs/more questionables
This attacks the lack of swingyness from the simplest possible angle. Theoretically, I could just make the power level less uniform, and most decks will have a trump card or two. I don't know if I like this plan though; I feel like it wont fix boring games, just make them occasionally swing back the other way. On the other hand, I think this needs to happen, at least a bit. There aren't enough powerful exciting first picks. Must of the 'first pick' bombs are just somewhat narrow archetype anchors that solidify you in a strategy.

I think the solution to my issue is probably some combination of these three options. I like A and B the best and hopefully fixing those two will lead to a little more power variation naturally. What do y'all think? Is this a problem you've ever dealt with in your own cube? Am I missing something? Do you think I've identified promising solutions?