Sets Journey to Nyx Spoilers
- Thread starter FlowerSunRain
- Start date
I hate constructed, and always have. It sucked before M10 came alone so you'll get no arguments from me there. Constructed is generally broken because the consistency of decks is too high. 4 copies of each card is no good. Unless you have a super tight group of sets that creates a diverse and interesting meta, you end up with Roshambo and just a handful of competitive decks. Why anyone enjoys that environment is beyond me, but different strokes for different folks I guess.
Limited is not much better because you end up with midrange.dec because you can't really build anything else with a random group of packs overflowing with crap commons. Again, super tight sets can create cool limited environments, but it's rare.
This is why cube is so great because it blends the best parts of both environmetns together and you can fine tune it over time to suit your play group. Decks in cube play more like constructed without all the overblown redundancy that makes decks too efficient for their own good (keeping the meta diverse because lots of stuff is viable), yet it gives some level of power and consistency that you simply can't get in traditional limited format so arch types and theaters can exist (again, diversity). I had sworn off Magic until I stumbled onto cube. Cube is the only format I will ever play again.
As far as power creep... yes, they have fixed some broken things (spells >>>> creatures). The game wasn't perfectly balanced before M10. My point though is they went too far with it. Creatures are too good now (many of the high casting cost ones in particular are every bit as broken as some of the high powered old school cards that none of us run in cube because of the warping effect they have). And walkers in particular have transformed the game because they all represent run-away card advantage on some level. Some (maybe most) of you like what walkers to the game. Fair enough. But others (me at least) don't. Any card that provides free spells every turn with nothing more than a one time cost up front IMO warp the game.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Also dude new city of brass:
CML
Contributor
you know, the good friend that got me into magic told me something similar, i've heard this old truism trotted out by a dozen other sources who are involved with the game to varying degrees, and i will tell you the same thing i tell them: you have no idea what you're talking about
sounds about right these days, the nwo attempts at creating archetypes are so uninspired
no argument here
i dunno, i've seen more standard creatureless control in the last year than in the previous three. the counterweight to this is ... well, burn, but also walkers. you can attack walkers. walkers are good in control, but they're good against control. this is the tip of the iceberg, though. the high-cmc creatures aren't going to ever be nearly as busted as Balance because they cost more than 2 and no Titan will ever be as strong in Cube as Upheaval. beyond that plaint, what do Whispers of the Muse or Fact or Fiction represent but "runaway card advantage" -- that you can't attack? all these hand-waving arguments are leading me to conclude that you just dislike the modern Constructed thing for reasons you can't articulate, which is obviously fine and probably quite interesting if you figure out what the real reasons are.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Interesting! I didn't think they'd do a 3 mana god, and that trigger sounds super annoying.
Maybe?
Another from Pax. Could be sweet.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
so how about those new cards!
(...they suck; continue)
(...they suck; continue)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Dude arethos seems strong. Id' be fine with him never being a creature, and Black/White are famous for CC 2 drops (even if I've been cutting down on them)
This seems like the ultimate Timmy card. My 13 year old self would have loved this.
...I think I'm going to try cubing it.
Athreos seems fine, but as with many punisher cards, I suspect he reads stronger than he plays. That is about as good anti-Wrath protection as it gets, though. With him and a Blood Artist in play...
I don't huh? Can you play constructed magic and be successful without playing the meta (and by that I mean study the meta and play decks that are good against it)? Would the format even work if you didn't play 2 out of 3 and use side boards to band-aid the over emphasis on match ups ? No and No. I don't need to play at a competitive level to see that. I've played the game long enough and read enough about the competitive scene to see how it works. These are IMO bad aspects of Magic - things I dislike immensely about the game. Things that pushed me away from Magic (things that exist in casual constructed honestly). And this is why I don't like constructed.
In no way am I implying that guys that play constructed are unskilled or playing an inferior game. Quite the contrary. It is highly skill intensive (probably more so than any other format BECAUSE of the fact that you need to play Magic and play the meta as well - recognize what deck you are playing and what the best plays are to beat it, etc.) and guys that compete at that level would wipe the floor with me with relative ease. Chess is a highly competitive and skill intensive game too. I don't like that game much either. As I said different strokes for different folks.
On a side note... I don't get the elitist vibe that seems to be prevalent with some of the more experienced Magic players. Like somehow playing on a much more competitive level makes my (lesser skilled) views of the game somehow invalid. It's a myopic view IMO. It assumes that the game operates the same all all levels of play. Very few things do, certainly not a complex game like Magic.
Take something like Basketball for example. I played when I was younger, but never at a highly competitive level. The game we played was completely different than what you see at college/pro level. Strategies and things that are obvious at one level of play may not even apply at a different level of play. No one I played basketball with could dunk or get anywhere close to the rim - so guys driving to the basket often represented less of a threat than wide open guys shooting set shots (this is absolutely not true at the college/pro level but school yard level it can be true). Dudes who were 6'1" were centers and power forwards posting up and getting rebounds where as these guys would have had to play point guard in college. It's apples and oranges. So what you are talking about with some of what you might see in super competitive constructed Magic (and why you think I don't know what I'm talking about) may or may not exist at lower levels of play. I can tell you that casual constructed has two big issues - disparate power levels (depending on how much guys spent on the game) and matchup issues (Roshambo - which is IMO tied to constructed period across the board). I played over 10 years with a lot of different people and I definitely know what I'm talking about when it comes to this game.
The problem with walkers and things like Grave Titan (from a run-away CA perspective) is that there is no ongoing cost associated. Walker abilities are free. Grave Titan gets dudes just for swinging (less broken than Walkers, but still grossly under-costed for what you are getting). Whispers of the muse has a very large buyback cost, so while it is infinite it is constrained by the mana cost each time you use it. In short, you are making a big sacrifice to get the effect. The same is true of pretty much every re-usable effect in the game - Icy Manipulator, even something busted like Necro - they all have costs associated with their effect. They aren't free. Everytime you want to use it, you must pay a cost. Very few things are free and limitless (I can't think of very few cards outside Walkers). Walkers are the biggest offenders. They offer spell-like effects, and each turn after the first you pay no mana for them. In fact, you give up nothing at all to use them. They are completely consequence free. To add insult to injury, after a few turns of using these consequence free abilities, you then get access to an ability that generally auto-wins the game - again also costing nothing at all. Walkers avoid a fundamental mechanic on which the game was designed - mana cost. Do they technically break the game? No - Wizards came up with ways to balance their power (mainly making them attackable so they could be dealt with effectively by most any deck).
My issue with them has more to do with how the game has changed because of a new permanent type. It wasn't designed with planes walkers in mind. Has it evolved and is it still a good game? Yes. I just don't think it needed changing and I preferred the game in it's original form. To me, this would be like introducing a new piece to chess or a new move in checkers. Will the game technically break? Probably not (as long as the change is well thought out), but the game will forever be changed and won't play the same going forward. I'm personally just not a fan.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Well, considering his ability helps you get more creatures into your hand, I think being a creature is a real and relevant part of the card. Similar to Ephara for keeping devotion(who kicks ass), though they can bolt themselves to stop you. Seems fair for a drop to 3 mana. Definitely an interesting card and one of the few playable white devotion cards, if you are into that sort of thing.
Esper Humans is already a pretty real cube deck.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Time is another fundamental resource in Magic. If you've got a lot of it, Garruk, Primal Hunter dominates the game. If you don't, he's an overcosted hill giant that wishes he was something that helps now. As you seem to like the slower paced, mid-range-focus its clear that Planeswalkers might be a problem because time is a copious resource. If you constrain time more, the advantages that the planeswalker card type diminishes until at some point they actually become fundamentally weak. Even cubes can be tuned to the point planeswalkers not named Jace, the Mind Sculptor will be unplayable just like in constructed (see combo cubes and the vintage format for examples of this phenomenon), so I think that the planeswalker card design can be the wrong choice for a given scenerio, but it is not fundamentally broken.
I specifically said they didn't technically break the game. I think we've had this discussion before. And you are correct. My disdain for walkers tends to push me to use terms like "broken" when that isn't actually the case. Walkers are fairly balanced in the game when you consider time as a resource and you consider the modern changes to the game (power creep, etc.). I simply don't like their design or what their design forced into the game (said power creep, etc.). Let's be honest here, things like Grave Titan wouldn't exist if not for walkers. It was a change that had a domino effect on the game. With that said, some of the power creep IMO has been good for even retro cubes like mine. So I don't think it was a complete travesty, just a partial one.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
God damnit the more I think about it, the better this card seems! How many dudes actually have to die for this to be a strong effect? How useful is this with sac outlets? How easy is it to make this a creature? How stupid is this with shreikmaw and bone shredder? The Blood Artist comparison is apt. 3 damage is a lot. Having a creature die is super easy to achieve and super easy to get value out of.
Interesting! I didn't think they'd do a 3 mana god, and that trigger sounds super annoying.
Maybe?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Oh god I didn't even think shriekmaw!
Athreos is pretty much the only card from this set that I've been interested in so far. I like the red bestow guy too. Oh yeah, Setessan tactics looks great as well.
Athreos looks really really good. I'm not sure why there are people hating on it or describing it as a punisher mechanic. Good for aggro decks to make life difficult for opponents and accidentally turn into a 5/4 indestructible and for sac black decks for grindy recursion card advantage.
Thanks for this thread dudes. I've been out of the country all week for my sister's wedding, this has been a quick easy way to stay caught up.
To the person who laughed at me when I claimed Tempt with Vengeance should have been a white card because "Lol white haste?" I accept your apology.
I'm looking forward to the FSR "card of the set" thread.
Atheros Pod.
what do y'all think of this dude
Can we talk about this guy more? I know he's not exactly in the Top X UR cards in the game, but imagine you had a PW that couldn't be attacked and gave you either a card or bolted something each turn (starting the turn after it hits the board, of course). This also interacts with all the library manipulators (Top and Brainstorm say hello) as well as potentially being a creature. The problem, obviously, is that UR aren't exactly rocking tons of permanents. Frostburn Weird?
The text part reads really powerfully, but I guess for 4UU you get a flying Sphinx that gives you two cards right away...
I was looking for a new cool blue finisher! Love this guy
Doesn't this guy just say "chump me for days"?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Well, it is a punisher mechanic. The misconception is that a card with the punisher mechanic is intrinsically unplayable. Giving the opponent the choice is a downside, not a death sentence. Particularly since with this card, the effect is cumulative. Something like Breaking Point just doesn't work because if you need a wrath, it isn't one. Athreos is an engine that will eventually create value, because eventually the damage will just kill the opponent. It also helps that there is a second part of the card (devotion creature).
Browbeat at
would be "windmill slam 360 staple".
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I gotta catch up. Born of the Gods needs its article too! I guess I'll bundle it with the Theros one.
I think this card is much better than people think. How amazing would this card be in a UR ramp style deck? Getting this guy down early (say turn 3 even) and either drawing an additional card each turn after that or getting a free bolt (which you could manipulate with blue card draw). And it's indestructible so very hard to disrupt (especially before it becomes a creature). I don't know. Seems pretty good to me. Maybe I'm stuck thinking about constructed applications though (perhaps he's too narrow?)
Yeah I thought it was so curious how similar that god was to the new Ajani in my eyes except one you could swords and the other you could attack to death. I guess 3 counters will stick around and deal damage over time but for the most part I'm just thinking about it like awkward inevitability.
Some day I'm gonna have athreos in play with a AEther Vial hanging around and I'm gonna laugh and laugh every time someone pays 3 life for my 2 cost creature or just lets it keep attacking.