Huh. This is the best Zombie lord they've printed in a while
Sets [KHM] Kaldheim Official Previews
- Thread starter TrainmasterGT
- Start date
Huh. This is the best Zombie lord they've printed in a while
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think this is fairly weak unless you're running dedicated tribal. Vizier of the Menagerie is going to be superior most of the time if you're looking for this effect. Realmwalker is definitely great in dedicated tribal decks though!
Huh. This is the best Zombie lord they've printed in a while
Huh. This is the best Zombie lord they've printed in a while
What are you talking about? This is the best Goblin lord!
Changeling, changelings! My cube wants good changelings so badly.
No it's not, Muxus, Goblin Grandee and Conspicuous Snoop were just printed in June
However, I think we can all agree that this is the best Trilobite, Brushwagg, and Noggle lord we've seen in a long time...
I feel like such a hypocrite liking both of these posts. Tribal designs are pretty lazy and I'm tired of seeing them. Especially giants. Big tribal isn't really a thing because you can't fill the board with 12 giants like you can with elves, goblins, zombies, etc.
That said, my playgroup is super nostalgic for Onslaught block and getting more changelings makes that theoretical cube a lot more interesting.
A lot of the cards here are exciting to me, but if I step away from the nostalgia, a lot of the cards today will never see play in most cubes. There was definitely some good stuff, but like half of it is so damn narrow.
-So then clearly you don't dislike tribal you just don't like lazy design.
-Of course these cards weren't going to be playable, they were made for the non-competitive products (although Youthful Valkyrie might be fine depending on how many good changelings are in this set).
Wow! What a great new equipment! I can't wait to tutor it up with my Stoneforge Mystic! Wait, I can't actually do that because it's on the back half of the card? Wow.
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This card is like, actually pretty decent, I just don't like that the equipment part of the card is on the back. I think the creature is much worse than the equipment and I think that in my cube is usually going to see it played as Sword of the Realms as opposed to Halvar, God of Battle. It's upsetting, since a lot of my cube's equipment package is only going to exist to feed Stoneforge Mystic, so having one of the best equipments available not be tutorable really hurts both cards in my opinion.
Luckily, the Showcase back and front don't have different frames, so I can play this equipment side front if I really want to without things looking weird.
You can count me in the population of people that would find this to be a fun puzzle that's worth the while to draft even if the deck wasn't a barn burner.
Me and Brad were just discussing how dragon tribal isn't quite there yet, but this is real nice. If dragon tribal becomes dwarf, treasure, dragon tribal then I think it may just work. I kind of wish rather than "sacrifice five treasures" it was sacrifice five artifacts to synergize with food and clue tokens, but still great. Also fun with shimmer dragon.
To the point about tribal being anti-fun: I think that Trainmaster hit the nail on the head. Tribal designs are often miserably lazy. "+1/+1 and keyword" lords are incredibly uninteractive, and they snowball in draft--there's no incentive to run anything different. In a word, they are parasitic.
However, I think that this is analogous to that boogeyman of "more traditional" cubes: Storm. You either want Storm cards or you don't, and there's not a lot of middle ground. In fact, I'd go so far to say that Storm is a form of tribal, much as Energy can be conceptualized as Energy tibal and how Prowess is noncreature-spell-tribal. The main difference is that "conventional" tribal payoffs have had limited range of effects (that is, been limited to "+1/+1 and keyword" lords) mostly due to precedent. This restricted range of effects is what has made tribal effects so boring, not some inherent restriction of creature-type-based tribal effects.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that "Blink" tribal is an example of tribal effects done right. You have generic glue that's acceptable in most any deck and enablers that serve as "lords." Soulherder is one of the best lords I've seen in recent sets, certainly better than Empyrean Eagle or Drogskol Captain (even though I think the latter is SO COOL). The keys IMO are
a) making the lords interesting
b) making the glue acceptable in a variety of decks (accomplished best via party and changelings)
and c) let cards interact with the tribe on some sort of spectrum. (i.e. the glue can't be interchangeable. Tatyova, Benthic Druid and Plated Geopede are both in the same tribe, but they belong in radically different decks. That's landfall tribal done right.)
My takeaway from this discussion is that if you want to make tribal work as a major theme, it needs to be large enough that multiple different decks exist within that tribe. If it's a minor theme, the glue needs to be good enough for non-tribal players to want to scoop it up. Most cubes I've seen follow the latter guide with respect to tribal effects, but some, like Morph, Adjusted run with the first one.
Of course, all of this is predicated on the (perhaps false) equivalence between tribes and themes. Is there a difference? I'd say that there used to be one, but (edit: to be clear, in my opinion) Wizards is correctly moving away from that model and towards a world in which tribes are just a subset of themes.
However, I think that this is analogous to that boogeyman of "more traditional" cubes: Storm. You either want Storm cards or you don't, and there's not a lot of middle ground. In fact, I'd go so far to say that Storm is a form of tribal, much as Energy can be conceptualized as Energy tibal and how Prowess is noncreature-spell-tribal. The main difference is that "conventional" tribal payoffs have had limited range of effects (that is, been limited to "+1/+1 and keyword" lords) mostly due to precedent. This restricted range of effects is what has made tribal effects so boring, not some inherent restriction of creature-type-based tribal effects.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that "Blink" tribal is an example of tribal effects done right. You have generic glue that's acceptable in most any deck and enablers that serve as "lords." Soulherder is one of the best lords I've seen in recent sets, certainly better than Empyrean Eagle or Drogskol Captain (even though I think the latter is SO COOL). The keys IMO are
a) making the lords interesting
b) making the glue acceptable in a variety of decks (accomplished best via party and changelings)
and c) let cards interact with the tribe on some sort of spectrum. (i.e. the glue can't be interchangeable. Tatyova, Benthic Druid and Plated Geopede are both in the same tribe, but they belong in radically different decks. That's landfall tribal done right.)
My takeaway from this discussion is that if you want to make tribal work as a major theme, it needs to be large enough that multiple different decks exist within that tribe. If it's a minor theme, the glue needs to be good enough for non-tribal players to want to scoop it up. Most cubes I've seen follow the latter guide with respect to tribal effects, but some, like Morph, Adjusted run with the first one.
Of course, all of this is predicated on the (perhaps false) equivalence between tribes and themes. Is there a difference? I'd say that there used to be one, but (edit: to be clear, in my opinion) Wizards is correctly moving away from that model and towards a world in which tribes are just a subset of themes.
Cleaving Reaper
Creature — Angel Berserker
Flying, trample
Pay 3 life: Return Cleaving Reaper from your graveyard to your hand.Activate this ability only if you had an Angel or Berserker enter the battlefield under your control this turn.
“I won’t pollute my blade with your blood, demon. You’ll die by your own axe!”
Halvar, God of Battle
Legendary Creature — God
Creatures you control that are enchanted or equipped have double strike.
At the beginning of each combat, you may attach target Aura or Equipment attached to a creature you control to target creature you control.
4/4
Sword of the Realms
Legendary Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+0 and has vigilance.
Whenever equipped creature dies, return it to its owner’s hand.
Equip
[Flip it over reminder in the corner]
Good additions to The Black Cube if I grab a Sharpie...
Creature — Angel Berserker
Flying, trample
Pay 3 life: Return Cleaving Reaper from your graveyard to your hand.
“I won’t pollute my blade with your blood, demon. You’ll die by your own axe!”
Sword of the Realms
Legendary Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+0 and has vigilance.
Whenever equipped creature dies, return it to its owner’s hand.
Equip
Good additions to The Black Cube if I grab a Sharpie...
True. I think there's good tribal, like Wizard's Lightning where the card is playable and gets better in the tribal deck, and there's bad tribal, like Elven Ambush, where the card is only good in one deck.
I guess the laziness comes from making yet another tribal themed set. I usually like it when they toss in a tribe as one of the color pairs, but I don't like the high quantity of cards that are explicitly tribal or the excess of words that comes from trying to force things to feel tribal.
Hopefully, as these were from the "Theme Booster" (I don't actually know what that is, but it sounds specific), the rest of the set will be less about shoving the tribes down our throats.
This is such a weird one. Generically good Dwarf Dragon Tribal Metalcrafter. It's really decent, but I'd be scared to run it because of how many things it's broadcasting, unless I had all of them present.
Sorry to double-post, but Halvar looks like a great pickup for an enhancements deck, and, while I'm less happy to see another White four-drop curve-topper engine piece, the modality is going to make this a slam dunk for me. (Interactions with tokens, equipments/artifacts, blink, AND aristocrats in one, and it's perfectly fine on its own? Sign me the Hel up.) I'm really liking this trend of making creatures hold effects that traditionally would go on enchantments if only because they're so much easier to interact with, and this is coming from someone who loves his durdly enchantments. If I could, I would swap out all of my enchantments and artifacts for creature-based versions in a heartbeat.
But the best part by far? The showcase frames for this set look absolutely sick.
But the best part by far? The showcase frames for this set look absolutely sick.
Bro, I got you.
<3
Unfortunately, with the whole Party thing and Forgotten Realms, I think we're only going to see more tribal. Hopefully it's the good kind of tribal! You won't the only one disappointed if it's the, well, disappointing kind. I'm curious as to why you find tribal specifically annoying as opposed to, say, Heroic. To me, tribal is just an extension of themes, albeit a historically lazy one.
Also, in terms of new cards, Kaya looks fun for Orzhov! The ghostform text is reeeeeally nice, although I kind of hate the -3. This sort of thing is just so boring to me. I'd rather it be cheaper and have a temporary effect.
AND, bonus, addition, does anyone see that shadow behind her? I wonder what could be casting it...maybe some sort of shapeshifter? It certainly has the horns for it.
Unfortunately, with the whole Party thing and Forgotten Realms, I think we're only going to see more tribal. Hopefully it's the good kind of tribal! You won't the only one disappointed if it's the, well, disappointing kind. I'm curious as to why you find tribal specifically annoying as opposed to, say, Heroic. To me, tribal is just an extension of themes, albeit a historically lazy one.
Also, in terms of new cards, Kaya looks fun for Orzhov! The ghostform text is reeeeeally nice, although I kind of hate the -3. This sort of thing is just so boring to me. I'd rather it be cheaper and have a temporary effect.
AND, bonus, addition, does anyone see that shadow behind her? I wonder what could be casting it...maybe some sort of shapeshifter? It certainly has the horns for it.
Heroic, as the listed example, makes all your auras, targeted instants/sorceries, etc more interesting. Do you need a targeting spell? Do you need another Hero to target? Which one should you draft in this pack? Oh, here's Bonds of Faith, that's a uniquely flexible addition to this deck to add to the format. Then you need to decide in the game when to keep mana up for your instants or if it's better to play another dude now.
Tribal you just take the best Elf every pack and play the best Elf every turn. Which is fine, but it's not too compelling. That's why I kind of like a tribal deck as one of the ten guild themes but don't especially love it as the whole set.
Tribal may be inherently bad as a draft format. I've surely not felt like I've cracked it in my Onslaught 2 design. I've got some ideas, but it's definitely not the same as non-tribal. Going into the design like "I can fix this flawed idea" isn't the best starting point.
One of the things about tribal is that, due to lazy design, a lot of tribal themes end up feeling same-y in practice. They tend to focus on getting out a bunch of dudes, playing lords to make those dudes big and scary, and then hitting you in the face with them. Or they make one of their creatures really big and then hit you with it. They also tend to have a bit of trouble recovering from board wipes - [[Shaman of the Pack]] is a lot less exciting when you're playing it on an empty board, for example.
I think that the reason they fall apart in cubes is because cubes tend to have a much flatter power band than retail sets do, which is not what most tribal themes were designed for. In a retail draft, you'll probably end up drafting some garbage cards that happen to be in the right tribe. In Constructed, you can just run multiple copies of the best cards in your tribe. You can't really do that in most cubes - as a cube designer, you need to pick cards that are still worth running in a non-tribal deck while simultaneously not being GRBS if someone manages to draft The Perfect Tribal Deck. That's a pretty difficult balancing act.
And if you do run something like Party Girl just for the sweet battalion effect, people might end up expecting to see Satyr Tribal. Which is a nuisance - at least Heroic cards have the decency of not being cards you'd want to run unless you're explicitly supporting Heroic.
EDIT: I think that Zendikar Rising actually has a pretty good roadmap for making tribal effects less linear - just make it so that you have some cards that explicitly care about the tribe, and then tie the rest of the tribe to a non-tribal thing. Look at Rogues, for example - you have five cards that actually want you to run more Rogues, and the rest of them either do their own thing or want you to mill your opponent.
The problem, of course, is that you can't really do that unless you're willing to make custom cards.
I think that the reason they fall apart in cubes is because cubes tend to have a much flatter power band than retail sets do, which is not what most tribal themes were designed for. In a retail draft, you'll probably end up drafting some garbage cards that happen to be in the right tribe. In Constructed, you can just run multiple copies of the best cards in your tribe. You can't really do that in most cubes - as a cube designer, you need to pick cards that are still worth running in a non-tribal deck while simultaneously not being GRBS if someone manages to draft The Perfect Tribal Deck. That's a pretty difficult balancing act.
And if you do run something like Party Girl just for the sweet battalion effect, people might end up expecting to see Satyr Tribal. Which is a nuisance - at least Heroic cards have the decency of not being cards you'd want to run unless you're explicitly supporting Heroic.
EDIT: I think that Zendikar Rising actually has a pretty good roadmap for making tribal effects less linear - just make it so that you have some cards that explicitly care about the tribe, and then tie the rest of the tribe to a non-tribal thing. Look at Rogues, for example - you have five cards that actually want you to run more Rogues, and the rest of them either do their own thing or want you to mill your opponent.
The problem, of course, is that you can't really do that unless you're willing to make custom cards.
Yeah, tribal becomes drafting on rails much faster than most themes. I think the only way of working against this is to make the respective creature type so damn common, that you can just add very few payoffs and have drafters just end up there. I am currently trying this with Goblins (yes, I actually made one of my 15 archetypes about tribal). I think a small tribal component in a multifaceted environment can add some flavor and offer a simple way to draft a decent deck for newbies. Its just a bad idea to make it such a major role player imo. Also, part of my disappointment comes from my unfulfilled expectation to get a top down vikibgs set like theros was for ancient greek.
On a positive note:
The Equipment theme is a hit for me. And I love the showcase frames, easily the best since eldraine. However, I am really disappointet that they made Kaldheim a different Lorwyn instead of a different Theros.
Goblins (yes, I actually made one of my 15 archetypes about tribal). I think a small tribal component in a multifaceted environment can add some flavor and offer a simple way to draft a decent deck for newbies. Its just a bad idea to make it such a major role player imo. Also, part of my disappointment comes from my unfulfilled expectation to get a top down vikibgs set like theros was for ancient greek.On a positive note:
The Equipment theme is a hit for me. And I love the showcase frames, easily the best since eldraine. However, I am really disappointet that they made Kaldheim a different Lorwyn instead of a different Theros.
As someone who loves both vikings and metal (and viking metal) I've found WotC's marketing to be some serious "Hello, fellow kids" level cringe-y. I can't deny that the cards themselves definitely do it for me, though.
Showdown of the Skalds
Escape to the Wilds was surprisingly great, and this is in the same vein. I love giving card draw to non-blue decks to encourage weird control color pairings, and a big Boros control deck might be my absolute favorite deck to draft. Definite add.
Realmwalker
Changelings are great for minor tribal subthemes. They enable all sorts of weird shenanigans. Vizier of the Menagerie never did much for me, but this guy being hit by CoCo and getting buffed by other tribal effects himself might put it over the top. Plus the showcase art is sick.
Kaya the Inexorable
I've always liked Kaya as a character, but none of her cards have ever quite gotten there for me. This one finally makes the cut. It fits my recursion and endurance themes I like for white and black, plus she's a Vindicate in a pinch. Now the question is if I run both her and Sorin. I think the answer is yes.
Showdown of the Skalds
Escape to the Wilds was surprisingly great, and this is in the same vein. I love giving card draw to non-blue decks to encourage weird control color pairings, and a big Boros control deck might be my absolute favorite deck to draft. Definite add.
Realmwalker
Changelings are great for minor tribal subthemes. They enable all sorts of weird shenanigans. Vizier of the Menagerie never did much for me, but this guy being hit by CoCo and getting buffed by other tribal effects himself might put it over the top. Plus the showcase art is sick.
Kaya the Inexorable
I've always liked Kaya as a character, but none of her cards have ever quite gotten there for me. This one finally makes the cut. It fits my recursion and endurance themes I like for white and black, plus she's a Vindicate in a pinch. Now the question is if I run both her and Sorin. I think the answer is yes.
Fair point, Heroic is a poor example. It sounds to me like Mill might be a much better example for a parasitic mechanic closest to tribal, but Mill has the benefit of being able to target yourself and become something completely different.
I'd love for you to elaborate on this experience at some point! I'm not seeing a cube thread on that--what has worked well for you? What hasn't? You've clearly put more thought into this than I had, which is mainly "ZNR good, Lorwyn bad" (though I love Lorwyn).
I liked the recent overlap between Wizards tribal and instants/sorceries, e.g. [[Relic Amulet]]. Something similar could be done with Artificers/Artifacts, Shamans(?)/Enchantments, Druids/Lands, Nobles/Conspiracies...
I'm kinda curious about why you think Lorwyn is a bad take on tribal. I think that it's actually pretty decent, at least once you take the rest of the block into account. I wasn't really playing at the time, but I remember that the tribes played in distinctive ways and that Morningtide started overlapping different tribes.