Sets [KHM] Kaldheim Official Previews

So, the thing about Lorwyn is that they had a ton of great ideas about overlapping tribes (Benthicore, Bog-Strider Ash) and about including Changelings as glue, but the problem with how they made "overlapping" cards is that they don't serve in their typeline tribe. Take the Bog-Strider Ash I mentioned. It's not really a Treefolk, it's just a Goblin that doesn't benefit from other Goblins. So instead of being a supporter and a beneficiary for the same tribe like Boggart Mob may be, it's just a supporter for one tribe and a beneficiary of a different one, diluting it. Then there's the outdated hate cards, like the Bog-Strider, which explicitly weaken other decks pretty much by chance.

The whole race-class thing is, in theory, great, but there just aren't that many reasons to care about that class. Take soldiers, for instance. (This was my main deck back at the time, for kitchen-table Magic, so it's what I'm most familiar with.) On the surface, they look great: there are 28 Soldier creature cards, and only 12 of them are mono-White! The payoffs are all in White, so they're focused in that color but found in all colors that aren't Green. However, there's no reason to look for Soldier cards. These four cards are the entirety of the payoffs.





The thing is, they're all entirely in one of four sets, and one is either a Gray Ogre or a Serra Angel based on a coin flip, which is way too big a delta for me...maybe? If there was a top-of-the-library theme then that might be a cool payoff, but it's either way undercosted or never going to make your deck. The Tactician is good, but again suffers from being great or permanently stranded in the sideboard. Then, when you look at the Captain and the Banneret, two of the most consistent cards, there are only 3 Soldiers that cost 4 and 1 that costs 5! So you're not cheating much mana with either of the Captain and the Banneret. This problem shows up in most of the tribes. Compound this with the fact that most everyone wants Changelings and the fact that Champion directly hurts the ability to make tribes work, and apart from Faeries (which were actually quite good!), tribal effects just didn't come together. I think of Faeries as the example that proves the rule, in part because while tribes interacted at the level of the typeline, they didn't do a great job of being mechanically unified.

The effects were great, but they didn't match up well to what the tribes wanted and the support just wasn't there. Plus, the good glue was too generic. I think part of what you want for tribal sets is to have cards that will be fought over by, say, players in two to four separate archetypes (not everyone, but not just guaranteed to table to the tribal player the way Field Marshal would be).

edit: I cannot spell today.
 
I'm kinda curious about why you think Lorwyn is a bad take on tribal. I think that it's actually pretty decent, at least once you take the rest of the block into account. I wasn't really playing at the time, but I remember that the tribes played in distinctive ways and that Morningtide started overlapping different tribes.

The issue with Lorwyn, and many tribal based draft formats, is that it devolves into drafting on wheels. You need greater overlap between tribes and strategies to make it a deep and rewarding experience. Ixalan suffered similar issues with tribes lacking a lot of crossover appeal and players falling into a given archetype with enough picks. The key to creating a good tribal based archetype is to do so subtly with enough incidental support and not something in your face. It's better to let your players discover these pick to pick rather than loudly broadcast it with explicit payoff cards. It's tough to straddle the line, but with a decade plus worth of sets since Lorwyn and many Limited formats including tribal archetypes, I'd say there's a good chance of being able to develop a tribal based cube that isn't draft on wheels. It would take quite a bit of work though.

I don't think cube design is too far from being able to do so. For example, I'd say that most cubes are more than capable of implementing a Humans archetype centered in Mardu colors without a whole lot of effort. A lot of the cards are already extremely payable in many different shells and would be included in the cube otherwise even without a humans theme. You'd embed them such that the cards can fit into a variety of strategies within those colors, but if someone were to go full on Mardu, they'd be rewarded in some way by maximizing the human synergies.
 
Thanks, both of you - that made some stuff click. I was still thinking of them mostly in terms of building casual constructed decks (which has historically been the vast majority of my play experience). I guess I was so blinded by how cool of an engine Incandescent Soulstoke + Thunderkin Awakener is that I kinda forgot that the tribal stuff wasn't that cool/distinctive back then.
 
sarulfrealmeater.jpg


Well then. That's a win condition if I ever saw one.
 
Random thoughts

So the Kaldheim gods are not immortal which makes sense when we think about the Nordic gods from Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

Also they are semi immune to the legendary rule because the second copy will simply be cast with the side that the first copy wasn’t.

This assumes that the rest of the gods follow the pattern of the one we have spoiled now.

There should be plenty of support to run an equipment theme in cubes at almost any power level now.

It’s really nice to have a land cycle completed ‘this fast for a change. It’s almost like the original Ravnica: City of Guilds times :) I hope they will do this more often but not so often that it becomes predictable.

And it’s soooooooo good to see Sagas back! It’s not even been that long but I just love the flavor, how they play in the games and how the flavor matches how they play in the games by telling a story. For instance Showdown of the Skalds is pretty explosive and slowly degenerates. The last two chapters don’t play out the same because all the extra cards you get to cast can be used to trigger the second chapter but not the third.

Also here’s a legendary wolf

AD783820-ED3F-404D-B10F-D5A5B3E8C3CA.jpeg
 
Hot take: Sagas are basically what Planeswalkers should have been.

100 times this.

And it is what they almost were. The first sketches were a lot like sagas today, except they still had a loyalty so you could attack them and after III they went to exile (they were done doing you a favor). This was a far better flavor imo, since it makes them feel like they have their own mind. Also, they would have been easier to balance while still being able to do very powerful things. They'd also require some timing skill, like sagas do sometimes. I'd prefer that over some nobrainer pws we got.
 
I’m fan of having both in our game.

One can always choose to not include all/any of them in one’s cube. That’s why cube is the best format there is.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
One other thing about Lorwyn/Morningtide limited that wasn't mentioned yet, is how isolated the tribes are. All of them are in a particular color pair, and each color pair is basically nothing more than the single tribe it supports. This made it really hard to pivot into another archetype/tribe when you're being cut, because a) there is no other tribe supported by both colors in the color pair you were drafting, and b) if you switch to another color pair, your new color will not support the tribe you had drafted so far.

Truth be told, I am not sure they fixed this problem at all, when I look at the cards spoiled so far. The tribes still seem to be anchored to a particular color pair in Kaldheim, so if this is indeed a full on tribal set that offers little other archetypes, we might run into the same problem all over again.
 
Remember that all but two of the tribal payoffs we've seen so far are not in the main draft set, just the Set/Theme/Collector boosters. The only two tribal cards we've seen so far which are in the main set are Magda and Realmwalker, neither of which seem particularly parasitic as they are either super flexible or work without robust support from fellow tribal members.

It looks like a lot of the parasitic support cards that constructed decks need and casuals want are not in the main set. While there will undoubtedly be tribal cards in the draft format, I don't believe WOTC would do Snow and Artifacts Matter in a set built as something explicitly tribal. If you need further evidence, I would implore you to view this Blogatog reply.
 
I haven't played more than one draft of it, but didn't Zendikar Rising have a much better implementation of tribal limited? There were Warriors, Rogues, Wizards, and Clerics, and the party mechanic tied them all together acting as glue/buffer/pivot?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Can a mod change the thread title to Lorwyn Hate Thread?
Nah, Lorwyn may not have been the best draft format, but I enjoyed its atmosphere immensely!

I haven't played more than one draft of it, but didn't Zendikar Rising have a much better implementation of tribal limited? There were Warriors, Rogues, Wizards, and Clerics, and the party mechanic tied them all together acting as glue/buffer/pivot?
Original Innistrad was awesome as well. There was ample tribal support, but there were so many different tangents you could take. That draft environment was incredibly deep despite having a sizable tribal component.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Hot take: Sagas are basically what Planeswalkers should have been.

Less hot than you think: Sagas are what planeswalkers originally were. They were slated for release in future sight but they hadn't quite nailed the design down.

What would eventually become garruk wildspeaker was in the file as:

{2}{G}{G}
Chapter 1: Make a 3/3 beast
Chapter 2: Clone all of your tokens
Chapter 3: Overrun
 
Less hot than you think: Sagas are what planeswalkers originally were. They were slated for release in future sight but they hadn't quite nailed the design down.

What would eventually become garruk wildspeaker was in the file as:

{2}{G}{G}
Chapter 1: Make a 3/3 beast
Chapter 2: Clone all of your tokens
Chapter 3: Overrun
They changed Planeswalkers away from this to what they are now because the original design "Made Planeswalkers feel Stupid."

This design happened to work for sagas because stories don't need to feel like intelligent beings. If the board state changes between the first and second chapter of a saga, the story still continues.

Lorwyn is an awesome world. Sadly the tribal theme makes cube inclusions from the sets more difficult.
But, there's like half a million Lorwyn cards that can are actively good in most cubes of varying power levels.

And that's not even counting the beautiful basics!

I get that it's a little harder to grok with tribal sets for inclusions, but Lorwyn+Morningtide had like Guilds of Ravnica levels of good cards. A lot of early cubes were completely re-shaped by this block, and many of us are still playing it's cards to this day. If one really wants a heavy Lorwyn aesthetic in their cube, it's not hard to do.
 
They changed Planeswalkers away from this to what they are now because the original design "Made Planeswalkers feel Stupid."

This design happened to work for sagas because stories don't need to feel like intelligent beings. If the board state changes between the first and second chapter of a saga, the story still continues.


This makes me think of an alternate timeline where, instead of getting a Garruk card (or whatever), we got a Saga that was about Garruk hunting Lilliana, or Jace losing and regaining his memory, or whatever. I think I like that timeline better than this one.
 
A set can magically become super popular and powerful if you push the five most interesting mythics from one set into that other set. It’s suddenly stacked with goodies!

Chris was that Garruk design planned for Future Sight? I remember them being pushed but I thought they went away from the Saga Planeswalker design almost ten years prior to Lorwyn and not 1 set before Lorwyn. I vaguely remember the Lorwyn Planeswalkers only needing additional testing and thus was pushed from Future Sight to Lorwyn.

I also loved the Basic lands from Lorwyn. They are the set I have the most altered Basic lands from!
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
A set can magically become super popular and powerful if you push the five most interesting mythics from one set into that other set. It’s suddenly stacked with goodies!

Chris was that Garruk design planned for Future Sight? I remember them being pushed but I thought they went away from the Saga Planeswalker design almost ten years prior to Lorwyn and not 1 set before Lorwyn. I vaguely remember the Lorwyn Planeswalkers only needing additional testing and thus was pushed from Future Sight to Lorwyn.

I also loved the Basic lands from Lorwyn. They are the set I have the most altered Basic lands from!

It was planned for future sigh yeah. Story goes they removed this card because they needed more time to nail down walker design, and put back in tarmogoyf, who had a mana cost of 1G because people couldn't remember what he originally cost.
Might have been 2G, might have been GG, that much was lost to time
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
This set feels like a practical joke being played on me. I've desperately wanted pushed Changelings at both ends of the curve for a long time, I want just a few more cards for the WR Artifact Aggro deck, and I even tried a UR Treasure subtheme in an attempt to find a theme for that pair I was happy with. I'm not going to get my hopes up but this one is really nice:


magdabrazenoutlaw.jpg
 
I'm...dubious, but I suppose weirder cards exist. Is that supposed to be a new frame and watermark for snow on Blessing of Frost? If so, that'd be pretty cool. If not, then it's a pretty nice touch.

On topic, Vorinclex actually looks like something I'd run, as the body is pretty good without being Questing Beast levels of pushed. It's not backbreaking if it gets reanimated T4, and it even has some trinket text that would help in board stalls. Haste makes it much more attractive as a six-drop, and on that note I'm actually digging Green getting some haste these days--I think either it or White should get it more than they currently do.

The Blessing looks like it's either way too good or way too bad, depending on how you do snow lands. If you get as many of them as you want, 4x +1/+1 counters and presumably drawing at least two cards is very, very strong. Divination + a 4/4 for 4 mana?! If you run none, Mouth // Feed does it better.
 
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