Ban: Yes / No
Card/Deck Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
I built the same deck yesterday during the test drafts without the pods and Resto. It had more removal, but it had two pieces and Imperial Recruiter for either half of the combo. The pieces are pretty interchangeable. I do think there are a few too many ways to combo off with it, though.
I say no to the ban. Kiki plays pretty fair as far as combos go, but ensure that there're enough instants to disrupt it.
I say no to the ban. Kiki plays pretty fair as far as combos go, but ensure that there're enough instants to disrupt it.
excerpt from skype:
[18:32:44] Lucas Childs: Love seeing Kiki decks work
[18:32:52] Lucas Childs: how often were you just playing value kiki?
[18:33:09] Doug Harrelson: never
[18:33:15] Doug Harrelson: literally ever kiki ended the game
[18:33:26] Doug Harrelson: if by value you mean winnning the game then always
[18:33:29] Lucas Childs: wow it always hit an untapper?
[18:33:45] Doug Harrelson: i had things at 3, 4, and 5 mana that comboed
[18:33:47] Lucas Childs: I guess with that witness it isn't hard
[18:35:51] Doug Harrelson: the two 4 drops with persist along with conscripts made the deck extremely consistent at doing what it did
[18:36:42] anotak: yeah like
[18:36:53] anotak: even after i repeatedly removed stuff
[18:37:09] anotak: i just died on turn 6 or 7
[18:37:20] anotak: i think
[18:37:46] Doug Harrelson: something like that, if i only had one then in game two i might have had to win the hard way
[18:41:21] anotak: turn 2 mogg war marshal which i red sun's
turn 3 evoke mul drifter i play land
turn 4 huntmaster, i anger of the gods wiping your board
turn 5 blade splicer, i bolt the token
turn 6 play pod, get glen elendra
my choices are, 1 inferno titan, 2 thundermaw, 3 get magma jet countered i guess
i played thundermaw bc i turned stupid and thought it would kill the glen elendra, you untap and pod into win
[18:41:49] anotak: that one was a lot less close
[18:48:15] anotak: game 2
turn 1 faithless, you play treespeaker
turn 2 magma jet on speaker, you play lotus cobra
turn 3 i play young pyro (i guess i could've pillar'd cobra here?), you play a fetch, play pestermite untapping a land, play pod
turn 4 i fire both your creatures making an elemental, animate mishra's factory and swing. you eternal witness getting back pestermite, pod into redcap killing pyromancer
turn 6 play pyromancer #2, pillar the redcap, you play pestermite and pod into glen elendra
turn 7 i have to find an answer
[18:48:27] anotak: i guess my mistake here was i attacked with mishra's factory
[18:48:37] anotak: because i realize i have a faithless looting in my yard and i cast it
[18:48:52] anotak: but im 1 mana short of killing the glen elendra w/ the sudden demise i draw
[18:48:57] anotak: or 2 mana
[18:49:06] anotak: whatever
[18:50:45] Doug Harrelson: i just watched them and yea, game one you couldn't have saw the kiki coming
[18:51:20] anotak: honestly i thought you would counter the faithless
[18:51:30] Doug Harrelson: i just didn't care lol
[18:51:33] Doug Harrelson: i was like suuure
[18:51:47] Doug Harrelson: as far as i was concerned it just made you tapped lower
[18:51:49] anotak: if i hadnt attacked and drawn the sudden demise would it have mattered
[18:52:13] anotak: bc you wouldve had a persisted glen elendra
[18:52:23] Doug Harrelson: i wouldn't have went off the next turn then
[18:52:29] Doug Harrelson: i had straight lands i'm pretty sure
[18:52:38] anotak: and you were at 3
[18:52:48] anotak: well you wouldve been at 5
[18:52:51] anotak: bc no attack
[18:53:13] Doug Harrelson: i would have probably went to get mulldrifter to try and dig a way out
[18:53:15] anotak: and i wouldve had 6 power on the board
[18:53:21] anotak: and 1 draw step
[18:53:28] anotak: to draw a burn spell too
[18:54:09] Doug Harrelson: i don't think it is unbeatable at all, even when i had all the pieces assembled, you still nearly beat me just playing removal spells
[18:54:45] Doug Harrelson: g1 i would have saved my red sun since you had an anger in hands anyways
[18:54:47] anotak: i mean yeah but thats what that decks supposed to do is play removal spells and i feel like normally a kikicombo would be weak to specifically that
[18:55:10] anotak: hm why did i red sun's
[18:55:14] anotak: there was some reason i did
[18:55:29] Doug Harrelson: idk
[18:55:43] Doug Harrelson: you could have gotten war marshall and huntmaster all in one
[18:55:52] anotak: oh
[18:55:56] anotak: i thought you were an aggro deck
[18:55:58] anotak: like a turbo aggro deck
[18:56:01] Doug Harrelson: ooo gotcha
[18:56:05] anotak: and i wanted to preserve my life total
[18:56:16] Doug Harrelson: i did lead with stomping ground into plains 2 drop
[18:56:32] anotak: like i thought you were gonna go aggro 3 drop or aggro 2 drop 1 drop
[18:56:33] anotak: right after
[18:56:42] anotak: so my anger wouldve still been great
[18:57:07] Doug Harrelson: makes sense
[18:57:14] anotak: also you saw mountain mountain which implies an aggro deck too
[18:57:20] anotak: so i felt like you wouldnt play around anger
[18:57:56] Doug Harrelson: war marshall is such a good card for cubes that support both red aggro and pod strategies
[18:58:19] Doug Harrelson: also supports tokens, goblins, hellrider/battle cry
[18:32:52] Lucas Childs: how often were you just playing value kiki?
[18:33:09] Doug Harrelson: never
[18:33:15] Doug Harrelson: literally ever kiki ended the game
[18:33:26] Doug Harrelson: if by value you mean winnning the game then always
[18:33:29] Lucas Childs: wow it always hit an untapper?
[18:33:45] Doug Harrelson: i had things at 3, 4, and 5 mana that comboed
[18:33:47] Lucas Childs: I guess with that witness it isn't hard
[18:35:51] Doug Harrelson: the two 4 drops with persist along with conscripts made the deck extremely consistent at doing what it did
[18:36:42] anotak: yeah like
[18:36:53] anotak: even after i repeatedly removed stuff
[18:37:09] anotak: i just died on turn 6 or 7
[18:37:20] anotak: i think
[18:37:46] Doug Harrelson: something like that, if i only had one then in game two i might have had to win the hard way
[18:41:21] anotak: turn 2 mogg war marshal which i red sun's
turn 3 evoke mul drifter i play land
turn 4 huntmaster, i anger of the gods wiping your board
turn 5 blade splicer, i bolt the token
turn 6 play pod, get glen elendra
my choices are, 1 inferno titan, 2 thundermaw, 3 get magma jet countered i guess
i played thundermaw bc i turned stupid and thought it would kill the glen elendra, you untap and pod into win
[18:41:49] anotak: that one was a lot less close
[18:48:15] anotak: game 2
turn 1 faithless, you play treespeaker
turn 2 magma jet on speaker, you play lotus cobra
turn 3 i play young pyro (i guess i could've pillar'd cobra here?), you play a fetch, play pestermite untapping a land, play pod
turn 4 i fire both your creatures making an elemental, animate mishra's factory and swing. you eternal witness getting back pestermite, pod into redcap killing pyromancer
turn 6 play pyromancer #2, pillar the redcap, you play pestermite and pod into glen elendra
turn 7 i have to find an answer
[18:48:27] anotak: i guess my mistake here was i attacked with mishra's factory
[18:48:37] anotak: because i realize i have a faithless looting in my yard and i cast it
[18:48:52] anotak: but im 1 mana short of killing the glen elendra w/ the sudden demise i draw
[18:48:57] anotak: or 2 mana
[18:49:06] anotak: whatever
[18:50:45] Doug Harrelson: i just watched them and yea, game one you couldn't have saw the kiki coming
[18:51:20] anotak: honestly i thought you would counter the faithless
[18:51:30] Doug Harrelson: i just didn't care lol
[18:51:33] Doug Harrelson: i was like suuure
[18:51:47] Doug Harrelson: as far as i was concerned it just made you tapped lower
[18:51:49] anotak: if i hadnt attacked and drawn the sudden demise would it have mattered
[18:52:13] anotak: bc you wouldve had a persisted glen elendra
[18:52:23] Doug Harrelson: i wouldn't have went off the next turn then
[18:52:29] Doug Harrelson: i had straight lands i'm pretty sure
[18:52:38] anotak: and you were at 3
[18:52:48] anotak: well you wouldve been at 5
[18:52:51] anotak: bc no attack
[18:53:13] Doug Harrelson: i would have probably went to get mulldrifter to try and dig a way out
[18:53:15] anotak: and i wouldve had 6 power on the board
[18:53:21] anotak: and 1 draw step
[18:53:28] anotak: to draw a burn spell too
[18:54:09] Doug Harrelson: i don't think it is unbeatable at all, even when i had all the pieces assembled, you still nearly beat me just playing removal spells
[18:54:45] Doug Harrelson: g1 i would have saved my red sun since you had an anger in hands anyways
[18:54:47] anotak: i mean yeah but thats what that decks supposed to do is play removal spells and i feel like normally a kikicombo would be weak to specifically that
[18:55:10] anotak: hm why did i red sun's
[18:55:14] anotak: there was some reason i did
[18:55:29] Doug Harrelson: idk
[18:55:43] Doug Harrelson: you could have gotten war marshall and huntmaster all in one
[18:55:52] anotak: oh
[18:55:56] anotak: i thought you were an aggro deck
[18:55:58] anotak: like a turbo aggro deck
[18:56:01] Doug Harrelson: ooo gotcha
[18:56:05] anotak: and i wanted to preserve my life total
[18:56:16] Doug Harrelson: i did lead with stomping ground into plains 2 drop
[18:56:32] anotak: like i thought you were gonna go aggro 3 drop or aggro 2 drop 1 drop
[18:56:33] anotak: right after
[18:56:42] anotak: so my anger wouldve still been great
[18:57:07] Doug Harrelson: makes sense
[18:57:14] anotak: also you saw mountain mountain which implies an aggro deck too
[18:57:20] anotak: so i felt like you wouldnt play around anger
[18:57:56] Doug Harrelson: war marshall is such a good card for cubes that support both red aggro and pod strategies
[18:58:19] Doug Harrelson: also supports tokens, goblins, hellrider/battle cry
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I won't speak for anyone else, but I do not run Kiki because I find that, on a conceptual level, I don't like the paradigm of "get two cards together and you win the game". When you add in easy access via tutoring and redundancy in the two cards you can combine to win the game, it seems particularly obnoxious. I know many of the people I cube with would probably not play my cube if I supported Kiki-combo and similar concepts.
Yeah, two card instant-win combos are not really fun nor interactive. A quartet of Birthing Pods to tutor for either half of the combo means that you could actually have a dozen or more ways to put together your two card combo. Yes, we all know that the player has to draft all the pieces, deciding which ones to pick early and which ones to take on the wheel, and that some of the creatures will be fought over and nabbed by other people.
But once you build your decks and start playing Magic, none of that matters.
Every single opponent needs to have ways to interact with the combo that they would have incidentally picked up going about their normal draft strategy, and simply throwing up your hands and saying "Well, combo is slow, you can race it" isn't a satisfactory answer. If two card insta-win is going to be a prominent part of the cube, you may need to think about quadrupling up on Dismember, and that may not even be close to enough.
But once you build your decks and start playing Magic, none of that matters.
Every single opponent needs to have ways to interact with the combo that they would have incidentally picked up going about their normal draft strategy, and simply throwing up your hands and saying "Well, combo is slow, you can race it" isn't a satisfactory answer. If two card insta-win is going to be a prominent part of the cube, you may need to think about quadrupling up on Dismember, and that may not even be close to enough.
Laz
Developer
I like 3-card instant win combos. Two-cards is just too few. When three-cards come together, then it an awesome story, when 2 cards come together, it is just oppressive. Kiki could be fine just as a value card, but it means you can't play a bunch of otherwise sweet Cube cards, such as Restoration Angel, Zealous Conscripts, etc. Also, the loss of untappers hurts pod.
Also, what does 'Ban' mean in cube context? Surely you mean, 'remove from my cube'?
Also, what does 'Ban' mean in cube context? Surely you mean, 'remove from my cube'?
I don't like in in theory, but the games proved to be fine. I say keep until enough people become unhappy that it's time for it to go.
I'm in favour of keeping it, too. I think my main problem with it is the 7 Wonders problem. Like, you draft and play optimally for your seat, but based on the decisions of other players across the table from you, someone else is able to assemble the unstoppable killing machine, and steamroll everyone in their path. In that case, other than by random hate-drafting, there isn't really much you can do to control your own fate, and your inevitable loss comes at the hands of the other randos who supposedly didn't do their jobs cacking key pieces of the combo.
Is it really people's fault for letting Restoration Angel pass them by, though? Who was even in white that could've used it? Jonas was essentially one-drop aggro, and Dom was all-in on the aggro lifegain theme.
CML, is there any way your G/U deck could've interacted with a five mana 2/2? I forgot what was in your list, but can your deck win three games of ten in that matchup? Even if Jason jams all the red and white removal in the world, I'm not sure what some colour combinations are supposed to do about this.
Is it really people's fault for letting Restoration Angel pass them by, though? Who was even in white that could've used it? Jonas was essentially one-drop aggro, and Dom was all-in on the aggro lifegain theme.
CML, is there any way your G/U deck could've interacted with a five mana 2/2? I forgot what was in your list, but can your deck win three games of ten in that matchup? Even if Jason jams all the red and white removal in the world, I'm not sure what some colour combinations are supposed to do about this.
so basically what you're saying i didn't do my job when i took staggershock
I do think the deck is slightly less likely to come together now that people are aware of it. It's possible Dismember #2 is an option too..
I think there's a lot of context that should be taken into account here.
- The cube happens to run double fetches, which to me says better fixing and easier access to the duals that allow you to get past the triple-red casting cost.
- The cube also happens to run four Birthing Pods, which makes it easier to assemble the pieces required to combo out. If you just naturally drew into the combo a few times, that's not really a bad thing.
- How many drafters have actually broken this card besides this one time?
I think I would hold off for now and make sure it's actually OP and not just a product of several circumstances lining up nicely for someone.
- The cube happens to run double fetches, which to me says better fixing and easier access to the duals that allow you to get past the triple-red casting cost.
- The cube also happens to run four Birthing Pods, which makes it easier to assemble the pieces required to combo out. If you just naturally drew into the combo a few times, that's not really a bad thing.
- How many drafters have actually broken this card besides this one time?
I think I would hold off for now and make sure it's actually OP and not just a product of several circumstances lining up nicely for someone.
2/2 for 
too strong
too strong
CML
Contributor
not much it's U/G it doesn't interact. I had a Venser and a board Rift
i love kiki-jiki
Dougggggg
Reigning Draft Champion
Chris Taylor
Contributor
2/2 for
Far too stronk
I think I'm cutting her. (Yes, her!
) Even if it's not too powerful, this kinda deck isn't something I agree with in principal. Kiki is cool, but not cool enough to justify my most hated of gameplay