A personal fav of mine would be the very forgettable but fun hidden gem that is this card:
Card/Deck Kill it with fire (let's talk removal)
- Thread starter ColonelSanders
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Dom Harvey
Contributor
why is having strong gold removal pretty important to my control decks
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Chris basically said it. This may not go for every cube but it's been something I've been noticing:
While aggro decks can usually count on wheeling their staple 1 and 2 drops, control decks have more fighting to do over their cards so they often have to pass up or never get passed cards that they'd really like. Midranged decks also have this problem but can usually bank on stablizing by curving out with idiots, which is not something control decks always wanna do. You'll also note that simply increasing the cost of strong removal spells to where they would be less exciting for aggressive decks to wield doesn't work because control decks are usually relying on premium removal or high card quality spells to get them through early turns and to fill out their more reactive curves. So control decks need cheap efficient trade spells, while every other type of deck would merely like them, but also tend to have a little more security in what will wheel. The multicoloured removal spells are a naturally occurring answer to this problem, but it doesn't really change the fact that a lot of these control decks are usually spreading themselves over whatever colours the removal is not being scooped up in.
There are tonnes of cards control decks just aren't very interested in, and sadly most of the cards it is interested in are pretty cool to other archetypes too, so the control drafter is more often than not playing opportunist and probably taking lands in a hurry when they realize they are probably drafting a control deck. The cards the Control player doesn't usually have to fight over are 2nd tier sweepers and expensive draw spells. Compare that to elves, midranged big guys, red or white weenies. And we aren't even making a list of cards control isn't interested in, we are just making a list of cards decks don't usually have to fight very hard over between multiple archetypes. There are tonnes of cards in cube that are pretty bad in control decks.
While aggro decks can usually count on wheeling their staple 1 and 2 drops, control decks have more fighting to do over their cards so they often have to pass up or never get passed cards that they'd really like. Midranged decks also have this problem but can usually bank on stablizing by curving out with idiots, which is not something control decks always wanna do. You'll also note that simply increasing the cost of strong removal spells to where they would be less exciting for aggressive decks to wield doesn't work because control decks are usually relying on premium removal or high card quality spells to get them through early turns and to fill out their more reactive curves. So control decks need cheap efficient trade spells, while every other type of deck would merely like them, but also tend to have a little more security in what will wheel. The multicoloured removal spells are a naturally occurring answer to this problem, but it doesn't really change the fact that a lot of these control decks are usually spreading themselves over whatever colours the removal is not being scooped up in.
There are tonnes of cards control decks just aren't very interested in, and sadly most of the cards it is interested in are pretty cool to other archetypes too, so the control drafter is more often than not playing opportunist and probably taking lands in a hurry when they realize they are probably drafting a control deck. The cards the Control player doesn't usually have to fight over are 2nd tier sweepers and expensive draw spells. Compare that to elves, midranged big guys, red or white weenies. And we aren't even making a list of cards control isn't interested in, we are just making a list of cards decks don't usually have to fight very hard over between multiple archetypes. There are tonnes of cards in cube that are pretty bad in control decks.
Lightning Helix and Electrolyze go pretty late around here, despite Volcanic Hammer being the 'baseline', as it were. So I think there's some merit to Lucas's theory.
Agree. I don't really see a problem with first picking efficient removal.
Theros block limited really showcases how awful games can get when the removal doesn't consistently get the job done on time. On the other side, m14 shows that even crappy removal can drag a format down if the threats all suck.
I prefer removal that is good enough that you have to fight for it in the draft, to the point where it's hard for one drafter to grab it all.
I've been on a kick to reduce the power of creature removal in my cube. I don't want every game to come down to baiting out removal. I want to see games sometimes where an early threat actually deals a significant amount of damage because there is no answer ready (of course you'll see immediate answers too sometimes which is fine and good). I still run lots of strong removal, and it's still a high pick, but I'm fine with that. I think you just want try to find a good balance btw threats and answers. The last change I made to my cube (last week) was Unexpectedly Absent in for Swords to Plowshares. It kinda hurt to take out the best removal card ever, but its just so overwhelmingly strong. I still have Path to Exile, and most importantly I really needed more non-creature answers.
What you guys are saying about trying sorcery speed removal is really interesting. I never thought of that. Years of conditioning as a player to hate sorcery speed removal has blinded me to the design possibilities. Maybe I'll put a Bone Splinters in for Murder or something.
What you guys are saying about trying sorcery speed removal is really interesting. I never thought of that. Years of conditioning as a player to hate sorcery speed removal has blinded me to the design possibilities. Maybe I'll put a Bone Splinters in for Murder or something.
CML
Contributor
nothing really gave value when it came into play in m14. gossiphounds (which is everyone?) will enjoy the following sentence. it is fashionable to hate on zac hill (who penned the most overblown piece of magic writing ever, http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/...y-Journey-To-And-From-The-Promising-Land.html) but from what i gather he was good at his job and m14 suffered from his abrupt departure from wizards.
ways to deal with strong removal:
-draws with a bunch of guys
-guys come into play
-it's all kind of conditional
though all removal is conditional in one way or the other since if they don't have something and you've gotta do something, you'd rather have anything else. in this way removal regulates its own quality in a way creatures don't, so, i'm alright with ratcheting up the power quality because your damnation will always suck against another control deck. you know, except when it doesn't.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Honestly the instant speed stuff is totally fine in small numbers and/or at higher mana costs.
My cube has the feel of mostly sorcery speed stuff, but it still has lightning bolt, path, swords, and doom blade.
I've basically limited myself to 1 exception at the low CMCs so: red gets bolt and incinerate (art is so sweet), white gets path/swords, but doesn't have a 2cc one, black gets doom blade/ultimate price.
everything else is journey to nowhere, oblivion ring, volcanic hammer and custom sorcery murder (yeah soul reap didn't work so well)
Hero's downfall I find is usually fine because the cost of keeping it up is nonzero, so whoever is casting the killspell needs to put some thinking into it. The other instant speed ones are there for the aggro deck to sometimes be on edge. If everything was a sorcery, they'd have nothing to worry about, ya?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah. I think I'm OK with a higher variance power curve. Of course you did manage to pick out the weakest and strongest cards in the cube
. Both of those are the watch list.I want every card to be playable. If you need a five drop and you're playing white I think Serra Angel does fine. I guess it would become a problem if players opt instead to not use a five drop, but I don't think we're there (she was pretty awesome vs a Royal Assassin). Plus I just really like Serra Angel - classic, elegant, aesthetic.
Might be an interesting discussion: the comparing flat and "steep" power curves. Theoretically, seems like a completely flat power curve would be boring. I think part of the fun and skill with drafting is learning which cards are better than others. (Lesson one: Grave Titan > Serra Angel.)
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, didn't mean to come across as being critical of the entire cube. I was more curious how the power variance impacted your overall removal suite. Cards like serra angel need some breathing room to shine, while cards like grave titan can really get out of hand if they have too much breathing room.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Two things I dislike about steep power curves:
1) A new player at the table is more likely to pass the good cards, which gives the players immediately next to them (particularly the right) a disproportionate advantage.
2) With a flatter curve, each player has more of choice about what deck they want to play, rather then just following the power cards that are passed. Granted, this still happens (I end up playing blue tempo/control all the time because no one else is drafting it), but its much less pronounced.
In my cube, I'm comfortable taking ALMOST any card P1P1 and passing ALMOST any card PXP1-5, which is the environment how I like it. The challenge is getting together a deck that can beat the other decks at the table, rather then evaluating card power, which I think is a more interesting pursuit.
1) A new player at the table is more likely to pass the good cards, which gives the players immediately next to them (particularly the right) a disproportionate advantage.
2) With a flatter curve, each player has more of choice about what deck they want to play, rather then just following the power cards that are passed. Granted, this still happens (I end up playing blue tempo/control all the time because no one else is drafting it), but its much less pronounced.
In my cube, I'm comfortable taking ALMOST any card P1P1 and passing ALMOST any card PXP1-5, which is the environment how I like it. The challenge is getting together a deck that can beat the other decks at the table, rather then evaluating card power, which I think is a more interesting pursuit.
While a flat power curve probably doesn't do anybody any favours - it would be pretty tough to draft without the signals provided by being passed strong cards - I think you need to be careful about leaning too far in the other direction, too. Grave Titan is at or near the top of most of people's cube's power levels here, whereas the likes of Splatter Thug and Goblin Artillery were pretty unassuming cards, even in their respective limited formats. My worry is that the cards at the low end of the power spectrum are completely outclassed by the cards at the high end, making it so that they'd never realistically get maindecked. I think while you want a non-flat power curve, you also don't want the spectrum to be too broad. Most people's philosophy is that every card in your cube should be potentially maindeckable, in at least one archetype.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I guess it just looks like a very bomby format, and that would seem to be a little awkward for your removal suite. On one hand, you want to have something to keep the bombs from becoming grbs; but on the other hand that powerful removal completely slaughters about 90% of your other threats.
That’s probably why you've been having games that feel like they come down to baiting out removal: your answers are way stronger than most of your threats. If you go in the opposite direction with removal, you will probably find that the games come down to resolving a single super powered bomb, such as a titan. This cube might actually be a good candidate to experiment with reasonable hexproof options.
That’s probably why you've been having games that feel like they come down to baiting out removal: your answers are way stronger than most of your threats. If you go in the opposite direction with removal, you will probably find that the games come down to resolving a single super powered bomb, such as a titan. This cube might actually be a good candidate to experiment with reasonable hexproof options.
Thanks for the feedback everybody.
"every card in your cube should be potentially maindeckable, in at least one archetype." - agree completely, I think this is most important. I don't think a super powered black six will prevent under-powered red threes from being played (but I do really struggle finding good red threes). Though, let's look at my black sixes:
Clearly these aren't on the same level. The other two will get played less, and they'll miss the cut because of GT sometimes, but I think they'll still get played. All it takes is needing a black six and not having GT.
I understand the warnings about continuing to nerf removal. I think we'll hold the line for a bit and see how things go.
I actually thought a steeper power curve could help newer players - more luck involved.
The best solution regarding my power curve may honestly just be to cut the Grave Titan it seems to be a pretty clear outlier. I'll be a bit sad for a while because the card is just so cool, but sometimes cool/powerful cards have to sit on the bench for the greater good. The signets were the first to go; their biggest offense was being ten cards (that crushed aggro). Maze of Ith and Sigarda were booted due to interactivity problems. And Swords to Plowshares as mentioned. We'll see.
(btw. free MTGO M15 sealed today).
"every card in your cube should be potentially maindeckable, in at least one archetype." - agree completely, I think this is most important. I don't think a super powered black six will prevent under-powered red threes from being played (but I do really struggle finding good red threes). Though, let's look at my black sixes:
Clearly these aren't on the same level. The other two will get played less, and they'll miss the cut because of GT sometimes, but I think they'll still get played. All it takes is needing a black six and not having GT.
I understand the warnings about continuing to nerf removal. I think we'll hold the line for a bit and see how things go.
I actually thought a steeper power curve could help newer players - more luck involved.
The best solution regarding my power curve may honestly just be to cut the Grave Titan it seems to be a pretty clear outlier. I'll be a bit sad for a while because the card is just so cool, but sometimes cool/powerful cards have to sit on the bench for the greater good. The signets were the first to go; their biggest offense was being ten cards (that crushed aggro). Maze of Ith and Sigarda were booted due to interactivity problems. And Swords to Plowshares as mentioned. We'll see.
(btw. free MTGO M15 sealed today).
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I actually don't mind some cards that end up being sideboard only most of the time. People usually don't rock a Relic of Progenitus, but it does fun things out of the board.
In regards to the black removal discussion we had earlier, it seems like people liked these cards
Hero's downfall is maybe actually murder, but I just think murder is such an unappealing card. What is some other removal you run and how do they fit into the format you're building?
Hero's downfall is maybe actually murder, but I just think murder is such an unappealing card. What is some other removal you run and how do they fit into the format you're building?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I personally like Silence the Believers a lot. Exiles any creature, no questions asked, and late game it becomes a devastating, if expensive, two-for-one. All around solid.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I've been really impressed with silence the believers. It feels very balanced, offering a super powerful removal effect and oppertunity for card advantage, at a heavy cost of limiting the way you can sequence your plays. At 4cc its a little bit too expensive for controlish decks to lean on, so it pushes them towards the 3cc blockers I want them to be drafting.
I also like the shrinkers: echoing decay, grim affliction, since they double as combat tricks. Chainer's edict is another favorite, since it offers card advantage. I just like edict effects in general since they encourage people to go wide.
Tragic slip is a fun card. I don't run hero's downfall because I don't have planeswalkers currently: and murder effects aren't really something i'm in the market for anyways.
I also like the shrinkers: echoing decay, grim affliction, since they double as combat tricks. Chainer's edict is another favorite, since it offers card advantage. I just like edict effects in general since they encourage people to go wide.
Tragic slip is a fun card. I don't run hero's downfall because I don't have planeswalkers currently: and murder effects aren't really something i'm in the market for anyways.
I think I prefer over silence the believers, similar effect with a bit of splash damage on tokens.
over silence the believers, similar effect with a bit of splash damage on tokens.