Sets [KLD] Kaladesh Spoilers Thread

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Well, I respectfully disagree with all that.

I get the feeling people think that anything which isn't a creature is somehow "uninteractive". Don't confuse all spell based strategies with storm. You can cast a spell that doesn't put a creature on the board and still be interacting.

Creature strategies are fine but if that is all we are doing, we've devolved the game into something far less than it started. On a related note, I'd love to see a set that focused on more spell based win conditions. It's just becoming a lot harder to make a strategy that isn't reliant on dudes. And that's a shame because those decks are just as much fun to play. And having that represented makes things feel a lot less linear.

I think the intent was to make creatures more of a focus because every color can interact with creatures in some way. A hypothetical spell based win condition (Say, searing touch but good, for eg) can't really be fought except by blue and black, only outraced.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Well, I respectfully disagree with all that.

I get the feeling people think that anything which isn't a creature is somehow "uninteractive". Don't confuse all spell based strategies with storm. You can cast a spell that doesn't put a creature on the board and still be interacting.

Creature strategies are fine but if that is all we are doing, we've devolved the game into something far less than it started. On a related note, I'd love to see a set that focused on more spell based win conditions. It's just becoming a lot harder to make a strategy that isn't reliant on dudes. And that's a shame because those decks are just as much fun to play. And having that represented makes things feel a lot less linear.


Shifting the focus to creatures means you always have a present clock, warping the game around tempo generation. Thats ok, and I can see how it sells packs, but its a little simplistic.
 
In the past twelve months both Rally the Ancestors and Fevered Visions decks have been competitive in Standard, so it's clear that you don't have to use traditional creature beatdown (or be a control deck made to stop them) to have some level of genuine success. We also got a colorshifted Donate specifically printed to combo with Demonic Pact. Even in limited, we've got awesome shenanigans like this literally happening right now:

 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
eh....

rally was an creature ETB deck that morphed into bant company, another creature ETB deck.

The decks are mostly either ETB deck, or planewalker decks, or a mixture of the two.

Though maybe things will get better now that they've introduced these energy counters as a mechanic. It would be cool to make you generate an ancillary resource to generate spell effects off of your creatures.
 
Though maybe things will get better now that they've introduced these energy counters as a mechanic. It would be cool to make you generate an ancillary resource to generate spell effects off of your creatures.

YES. This is what I'm talking about. I'd love to see something even broader. Like a "sorcery point" mechanic or something that builds a secondary resource for casting non-creature spells, which could only be used to fuel other non-creature spells (maybe even get additional castings - flashback or add cycling to a spell card, whatever).

The fundamental problem I feel with creatures being pushed so much is that there is zero downside to running them. So many of them are on par with a lot of spell effects and they can block/beat down, etc. Why would you ever make a deck without a bunch of creatures? Young Pyromancer type effects are some of the very few incentives. Again, would love to see this explored in a block and not have it just be a gimmicky thing.
 
I think to move this conversation forward I'd need to see some historical examples of what you're talking about. Most of the powerful noncreature decks I remember from across Magic's history were only possible because Wizards didn't know how to correctly cost mana ramp, card draw, or resource conversion cards (Cadaverous Bloom, Necropotence, etc).
 
How about something simple like a straight burn deck? Or generate tons of mana, fireball?

I'm guessing most strict non-creature decks would have to be of the combo variety though. But combo is fun and it doesn't all have to be uninteractive or over powered.
 
Imho, non-creature spells are almost by nature less interactive than creatures. Most accomplish one task, and nothing exciting happens while its on the stack to resolved except that effect. Creatures offer more interactivity almost simply by the fact that they attack and block, while additionally being affected by the collective most number of types of other spells. Key here: less interactive. Removal, for instance is the spell type literally called 'interaction'. Ramp or draw, on the other hand? Mostly only interacts with your opponents via counter spells (just as an example)

What I'm getting at is that its not impossible to have an interactive non-creature deck, but its much harder. Any deck that's not based on creatures for winning, and doesn't utilize creatures as a foundation of the game plan, means that a good chunk of the magic system is skipped over. The most interactive spells deck I can think of is the Delver kind, which usually wins with creatures and incremental advantage, not combos.

you can build lots of sweet and fun spell decks, but they are almost universally less interactive.

Edit: Cat Pact is a perfect example, imho, of spell decks thriving within the creature paradigm. One style of deck doesn't totally disappear because of the other, and this and Fevered Burn are great examples of that. You just need to design your format correctly.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think to move this conversation forward I'd need to see some historical examples of what you're talking about. Most of the powerful noncreature decks I remember from across Magic's history were only possible because Wizards didn't know how to correctly cost mana ramp, card draw, or resource conversion cards (Cadaverous Bloom, Necropotence, etc).


The old conundrum of magic the gathering was that you generally couldn't get both tempo and card advantage at the same time, so you would have to generally cater towards one school of magic or the other.

Now, this isn't 100% (what is?); there were printings like ancestral recall that let you have both tempo and card advantage at the same time, and ETB creatures have existed for a long time, but as a whole, it was hard to get both simultaneously.

Generally speaking, creatures were very purely focused on board presence, and just terrible. No one really understood just how bad they were. When I came back to magic in 2006, I was utterly shocked at the creatures WOTC was printing, because many of them seemed so much higher power than what was considered a "bonkers" creature when I started the game.




I came from an era when juzam djinn was considered a design mistake, hypnotic specter was nuts, and serendib efreet, was considered a top notch threat. 5/5s for 4 or 3/4s for 3 without a real drawback was forbidden fruit for a long time in the game as far as creatures were concerned.

These are all really laughable by today's standards, and pretty tame even for Ravinca's (it took me a while to understand this). Again, generally speaking, a creature was a square board presence defined by its stats, maybe with an activated or triggered ability, and a spell was a spell. You didn't merge the ability to generate tempo and get ahead on spell castings, and you certainly didn't tie it to a credible source of board pressure.


Creatures were generally bad compared to spells, and Wizards had spent over a decade trying to figure out how to fix their creature problem (hexproof, shroud, and protection were common tools). Around ravinca you start to see better ETBs. To put into perspective how volatile this period was, the previous top tier threats were the kamigawa dragons, which featured LTBs, and depended on the old legend's rule to sort of duck tape together a crude combination of board pressure and spell velocity upon the second legend's casting, powerful enough to generally win the game on the spot (e.g. koko's 10 point life swing).

Note this is also the period where tap out control is born, largely off of the back of the power level of moluko and keiga. Why sit back and play this delicate control game, when you can run a reasonable card advantage strategy, while at the same time asserting pressure. This is pretty revolutionary.

After ravinca you have Time Spiral with ETB and than Lorwyn, and the printing of the first planeswalkers, with a steady increase in ETB creature density. At that point, even a control deck can now assert pressure (e.g. modern nahiri decks) with ultimates, as well as getting a free spell casting every turn, allowing midrange and control decks to both assert pressure, generate tempo, and generate card advantage at the same time. Time spiral->Lorwyn also gives us our first degenerate tempo deck in the form of faeries, which is basically an ETB pressure deck, generating both tempo and CA off of ancestral visions, spellstutter sprite, and mistblind clique. Also, some card called bitterblossom.

From that point on, ETBs just became steadily more and more insane (thragtusk, titans) and planeswalkers more pushed and dominate (jace), which brings us to today.

Now, I agree commercially this was a smart business move, and there were some net positives.

It was a reasonable solution for creatures being occluded by spells, as well as giving midrange some reasonable teeth to fight against control decks. Creature focused games tend to have a constant flow, are easier to visually process, and tend to have constant action with keeps player's engaged. Planeswalkers are exciting, powerful cards, that feed into that. They also keep games reasonably short, since you have constant pressure. They were not idiots for doing this, and I would have done the same thing, were the choice presented to me.

The problem though, is that breaking that original symmetry, makes spells a lot worse. Why would you play "just a spell" when you can run a "spell creature" that largely does the same thing, but can also pressure the opponent. Casting a "plain spell", in magic the gathering, can actually put you behind. That sucks.

On the plus side, when they attach multiple spell effects to a spell, that seems to help a lot in keeping pace with a game's tempo. They did that recently with sphinx's revelation and it was awesome, and they seem to have done it with this life gain WOG. These are all good things, and I hope to see more of it.
 
Great post. There are tons of net positives from modern magic design. I love all the synergy. So many new archetypes which have depth. But it would be cool to see some of the spell based ideas expanded. Specifically, provide more reasons to intentionally run low creature counts. It would open a bunch of design space that is being under utilized. The key though is making effects better with fewer creatures so it's not just more value that everyone can exploit. A lot of new spells like the commands are good in all decks. What you want is battalion type effects for non-creature decks. Spell mastery was the closest thing to this recently. I want more of that.
 
I'd argue that there were plenty of noncreature cards in old-school magic that generated tempo and card advantage. Wrath of God, Moat, and The Abyss were all super efficient means to not only impact the board, but net you cards over your opponent. The Urza's Saga "free" mechanic that you've showcased so well in the Penny Pincher cube combined with lands that tap for multiple mana is also as old school as it gets. Capsize doubled as an emergency early-game tempo card and a late-game card-advantage engine that could lock out opponents.

Like I mentioned above, Wizards taking a long time to learn how fast mana broke the resource economy often led to letting players simultaneously generate tempo and card advantage by casting multiple spells per turn, so it didn't really matter that many spells couldn't do both at once. Hypnotic Specter was only considered broken because it could get ritualed out on turn one (MaRo has often talked about how Dark Ritual prevented them from designing strong black 3-drops because of how it warped the game).

You're right that top tier tournament decks in Standard often revolve around mid-rangey ETB creatures, but we only need shift down the power curve like 5-10% to find a whole host of interesting noncreature based strategies. Few people here subscribe to pure power max cube design philosophy, so why should we limit ourselves to only looking at Top-8 Pro Tour decks when talking about Standard?

(Also, I'd argue that Ponza was the first degenerate tempo deck, but we can save that tangent for a rainy day :) )
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'd argue that there were plenty of cards in old-school magic that generated tempo and card advantage. Wrath of God, Moat, and The Abyss were all super efficient means to not only impact the board, but net you cards over your opponent.

WOG and Moat are pure card advantage engines (the abyss is more complicated, but closer to a planeswalker once you break symmetry). They were always costed so high, that you couldn't follow them up with an additional casting on that turn, e.g. a creature that could impact the board. Those spells are all very inefficient in terms of tempo.

This is why WOG has been getting progressively worse and worse over the years. With everyone running planeswalkers or sticky threats, or ETB creatures, investing a turn to generate lackluster CA (or no CA) is just not that impressive when it can't even be immediately followed up with a second spell, to at least generate tempo. Thats why this new WOG is so interesting.

The reason that ancestral recall (and later treasure cruise) generates both tempo and card advantage, is the CC of 1 mana. You go up two cards, but the card cost so cheap to cast, that you can immediate cast some follow-up spells, pulling ahead on spell velocity. Thats whats important, is being able to get ahead on spell castings, at the same time you are getting ahead on CA.

But I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong to point out that it was never a straight relationship (I said that myself): I'm just acknowledging that the division existed, and fully coming to an understanding of it was a huge focal point of WOTC design until Lorwyn when they settled upon a clear course of action, following set rules: ETBs creatures and planeswalkers, for a firmly creature focused game. The only set more influential than Lorwyn is probably Alpha, for this reason.

You're right about their limited formats. While limited is usually pretty creature centric, they have done a pretty good job opening that up for more interesting spell based strategies. A big part of that is that they tend to go light on the ETB spam garbage around the midpoint of the curve, where you essentially get old school vanilla creature design, but maybe with some shiny ability like morbid attached (looking at you festerhide boar.

I don't expect to see that in constructed anytime soon, however, since having a format based around pushed mythic planeswalkers and ETB spam creatures spikes prices, creates demand/excitement for a limited supply of a product, and creates incentive to buy packs.
 
I can think of at least three very competitive spell based decks in this very standard. I think the yawning chasm between these two styles is not as big as all that, even today, and even in constructed. Modern makes the comparison even better, because spells definitely provide a wide array of creative and top tier decks. First example to come to mind is ad nauseam, second one Scapeshift. Really the examples keep pouring into my head, but I tire of writing them. Zero of modern Jund's creatures even have an ETB, as far as I know.

I'm just sayin'

And I don't know what universe WOG is pure card advantage. Its 4 mana to the Villain's X mana more than 4 (mana advantage; tempo), and it's 1 card to their X (card advantage). Its like, literally, the classic example of both in one card.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Modern has no true control deck atm thats competitive.

Ponder that.

In this current standard, prior to rotation, the competitive decks that matter are all ETB/planeswalker based, with bant company being the most dominant deck.

WOG generally requires you cede your entire turn to cast a single spell due to the CC of those spells. Against aggro, you're typically going to get 1-3 creatures, with hyper efficient mana costs at 1-2cc. You will generate decent CA (maybe, depends if they are recursive or not), but you're not really getting very far ahead on mana expenditure, if at all.

Against single threats, its really bad. Usually you give up your entire turn to hit something they invested 4-5cc mana into, and probably got an ETB out of already.

Its a bit more reasonable against two midrange threats, but with ETBs, reanimation to abuse them...I mean just think of how exciting it is to wrath a kitchen finks.

Lucus was not wrong when he was complaining about how unfriendly the game has gotten toward some of these cards.
 
Spell decks don't need to be 'true control'. Modern has tons of spell decks, just not that one (even though it does have those too). I don't see how that invalidates the supposition that spell decks aren't as suppressed as is being stated. Are you guys really lamenting the lack of true control? I thought it was 'spell decks'?

And that's a looot of assumptions involving WoG. Supreme Verdict was a great spell, and just a couple of years ago. Commonly hit more than 4 mana in creatures, and across more than one card. Still could today against, say, GW humans and Bant company. I don't see how it takes your whole turn when it's 4 mana, and you could easily have access to 8 or more. Sure, it's your whole turn on exactly turn 4, but even then it's tempo advantage if you reset your opponent's entire first four turns and can spot removal their next dude next turn. Later on you can pull the classic line of wrath + hold a counter sort of deal. Even in modern, against my coco deck you could easily hit 6 to 8 mana of creatures, and 3 or 4-1 me.

Like, I don't disagree that creatures are better now. It's just not nearly as black and white as some if these posts seem to be trying to paint it as.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
And that's a looot of assumptions involving WoG. Supreme Verdict was a great spell, and just a couple of years ago. Commonly hit more than 4 mana in creatures, and across more than one card. Still could today against, say, GW humans and Bant company. I don't see how it takes your whole turn when it's 4 mana, and you could easily have access to 8 or more. Sure, it's your whole turn on exactly turn 4, but even then it's tempo advantage if you reset your opponent's entire first four turns and can spot removal their next dude next turn. Later on you can pull the classic line of wrath + hold a counter sort of deal. Even in modern, against my coco deck you could easily hit 6 to 8 mana of creatures, and 3 or 4-1 me.

I'm not saying Wog is a bad card. I'm saying it costs 4 mana.

If we're in constructed and you want a wrath that can add both tempo and CA, I would suggest:



So cheap you can sequence out a bunch of follow-up spells to capitalize on your CA you just made, rather than hoping the aggro player can't just sequence out a bunch of spells to get ahead of you on spell castings, and rebuild their board state.

We're probably more or less in agreement on everything else. I don't think you're arguing raw spells > creatures in today's game.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Spells certainly got toned down and creatures got better over the years, but that doesn't mean that spell-based deck left. There's actually been a cool mono-blue creatureless deck this past standard season (at the bottom here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-magic-update/update-2016-09-16). We've seen the GU Crush deck in action as well. And while it's a few years ago, I remember a hard WU control deck in RtR standard that had Elixir of Immortality as the win condition! Control decks still do crop up from time to time!
 
The Gearhulks look like an attempt at making fairer Titans, but more pushed Souls. They definitely got the memo on Soul of Zendikar. Eesh. Overall, I think they're great as bomby top-ends, and the resultant opportunity for artifact shenanigans is definitely worth noting.

The white one is probably the one I'm most anxious about; as a rule, vigilance bothers me. But Tragic Arrogance was always too weak, and Cataclysm wasn't exactly what I wanted in my format, either. Cataclysmic Gearhulk seems like a great compromise piece. Sold.

The blue one seems sweet; at a bare minimum, it's a Draining Whelk variant (which is absolutely nuts in cube and I love it to pieces), and that makes Torrential Gearhulk a great include to me. Sold.

Noxious Gearhulk is a very straightforward Gilt-Leaf Winnower upgrade, and I'm very happy with that. Sold.

Here's where I get more... perplexed. Combustible Gearhulk. It should have its place nearly guaranteed, right? A top-end Welder target, in the welder colors! But a 6 mana 6/6 first striker is not really what red is looking for typically. Aside from that, punishers usually look better than they play, but in this case, it's fair to guess that a well-oiled deck could probably expect to get 4-6 damage off the trigger (at least) if your opponent chooses "mill", and it has some hilarious Brainstorm implications. I think 6 mana to deal 4~6 damage and make your opponent discard a removal spell is about reasonable enough to me, though, so I'm sold. (And consider this: if it whiffs and bins 3 lands, that's really to your benefit if you didn't cheat this out T3 with Goblin Welder. And if you did cheat this out T3 with Goblin Welder, you probably deserve to have those 3 lands binned, you monster.)

Verdurous Gearhulk is very pushed, though, and not in any way exciting. I feel like they didn't know what to do with it, but wanted to make sure it was competitive enough for standard. I don't think I'll ever run it, which is a shame, because I love a cycle, and I never get to run any... However, I've got Primeval Titan in right now, which balances the scales, I think.
 
I'm planning on running the UBR Gearhulks for sure. I'm a fan of all of their designs and can think of hilarious decks with the red one and stuff like Blasphemous Act, Bedlam Reveler or Delve cards being run alongside it. Having haste instead of first strike would have made the draw/damage choice more intriguing, but maybe that was a bit busted in testing? Certainly would be ridiculous if you cheated it out on like T3 somehow.

I agree with Raveborn that Tragic Arrogance has been a little underwhelming, but I'm not too high on the white Gearhulk. He seems solid, but I think the effect will end up being the same in most cases. In any case, I'm not in any hurry to swap out any of my current five drops and the new angel is what I'd be adding (if anything) within that slot.

Didn't even bother with the green one to be honest, I'm just not that excited by another big trampler and the distribution of counters, while cool, isn't something I can really take advantage of currently.
 
Everything RavebornMuse just wrote. I've been searching for a way to make tinker worth drafting but not obnoxious and I've not found that middle ground. Inkwell is too oppressive and things like Steel Hellkite are not generating enough value.

What I like about the blue gearhulk is that it's castable outside cheat strategies (costing 6) and has a spell based ETB. All my ranting above about wanting more effects like that, well here's one that goes in a spell based deck (tinker). Neato. Will definitely test that one.

The green one is too pushed. The red one looks like it's probably crap (which bums me out honestly - I wanted a red specific welder target). The white and black ones almost seem too good, but I probably need to test them to see. I'll be ordering copies of all (except the green one) for sure.
 
Yeah. The only thing I did like about Wolfir was it had an element of danger to it. You kill Wolfir, and 12 power disappears. That is not going to be true with green gearhulk. It's less max value for more guaranteed value. In my mind, that almost makes it worse in a way. Getting blown out and losing the game to an instant speed answer after committing to a Wolfir attack is a real thing.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Yeah. The only thing I did like about Wolfir was it had an element of danger to it. You kill Wolfir, and 12 power disappears. That is not going to be true with green gearhulk. It's less max value for more guaranteed value. In my mind, that almost makes it worse in a way. Getting blown out and losing the game to an instant speed answer after committing to a Wolfir attack is a real thing.

This is true, and I heard a lot of people cutting silverblade paladin for the same reasons, but it'd help if he didn't have so much toughness he essentially has pro red/green/blue
 
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