General Let me draft your cube

Erik Twice

Erik Twice

I'm bored. That means I should be writing or playing games to write about them or some other nonsense. But no, this time I'm going to help you test your cube by drafting. You guys have been helping me test mine so it only makes sense to return the favour.

Link here your cube and what you want to test. I'll draft it and let you know my thoughts on what I did.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

ravnic said:
I think that's just the cubecobra bots, they never let one wheel a piece of fixing.
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I actually talked with the devs about this.

Less than a year ago, Cube Cobra was extremely kind when it comes to lands. You could always draft whatever 5c nonsense you wanted because they were massively undervalued. They tried to improve the bots but they found another flaw: Even better bots were still underrating lands because players also were underrating them.

The average Cube Cobra user doesn't realize that a third pick Volcanic Island is good and expects them to wheel. If you play on Magic Arena you can see this in action: Lands go extremely late and you face opponents with very few of them.

To counteract this the CubeCobra developers have artificially prioritized fixing. Which is fine, but it's certainly a bit stronger than it should. I think my real-life decks lean third color a bit more often than the draft experience on Cubecobra does.

Oh well, time to draft.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

ravnic said:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/playtest/nightmare

I tried my very best to eliminate narrow cards. If you feel like it please draft normally and tell me if you notice any cards, that you wouldn't play outside of a specific strategy/deck, that aren't gold multicolor cards.
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I first attempted to build a deck around Inga Rune-Eyes but failed miserably, I don't know how it should work.



My first draft went very poorly. I overfocused on ramp and green when I picked Vernal Bloom and I derailed.

https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6017245cd70a8b1048079e53

My second draft didn't go too well. I got into blink early but I got a lot of enablers and few targets. There are ways to control the game, but it feels like one of those decks where you get extra cards and bounce and end up dying to a vanilla creature stomping your face:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/601727dfd70a8b104807be14

My third draft went better. Picking up removal and stuff like Hypnotic Specter and Order of Midnight is a good start. It went a bit rough later on but it works and should be able to get in for damage. I like that the spells support clearing a path for the creatures.

https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/60172bded70a8b104807e571

Here I try to draft aggro again in the same way: Pick up removal and then whatever creatures I can take to get into the zone:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/60172e68d70a8b1048080391

In my small experience with your cube, I did not find a lot of cards I wouldn't play outside a given strategy or deck. However, I think a very large number of cards I would only play outside of their archetype begrudgingly. For example, I could play a threaten effect but I would rather not. I could play a morph, but I would rather play a more efficient creature.

In a sense, I feel I'm not so much excited about finding a cool synergy but relived I can dodge a messy card. Part of the issue is the very wide power band. Scourge Devil is fine, I guess, but I'm never taking it over Geist-Honored Monk or a big flyer like Hoarding Dragon.

At a glance, I also felt you have too many sacrifice, discard outlets or cards that create tokens. I felt I was flooded with them and that the challenge was having enough bread and butter cards to support my deck. I also felt complexity was very high.

I would try to par things down a bit and simplify the cube. Perhaps try to have fewer themes into more versatile cards. More cards that support several archetypes and are good enough to pivot into a different deck like:



And fewer like:



You have 500 cards, so it should be possible to reduce them by a lot. Hope that helps!
 
Brad

Brad

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/theblackcube
Main cube. Currently a bit bloated because I've added the last couple sets without cutting. It's a 450-480, though, so it's not over sized... yet.

If you want more cubes to draft later, I have 3 more lists that are basically complete. I have a feeling you won't be needing more.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

LadyMapi said:
I'd appreciate another look at Afternoon Delight, since I just made an overhaul.
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Ok, let's do this:

Fierst I drafted this Boros deck. It was fairly straightfoward except I felt the curve was not kind to the archetype. There are too many 3s. I know the cube is shifted towards 2s and 3s, but it felt very akward. I also believe some cards (Phoenix of Ash) are much stronger than others (Ire Shaman)
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/60173600d70a8b1048083dee

I then drafted this UW control deck. I think the ideas are solid but I feel there are too many support cards and too few creatures or spells you can use to push the game foward. For example, Galvanic Alchemist and Animating Faerie are not going in my deck unless I'm deep into an archetpy and even then, they are not the payoff I'm looking for in a cube with Jace, Mirror Mage. It seems to me you have a few too many disenchant effects, too little normal removal and actually few targets. Note that you cannot actually play Dismantling Blow if there are no artifacts in play.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/601739f3d70a8b10480852cc

My third deck was this Orzhov value thingy. It's just good cards put together with no clear synergy or goal. After a certain point, I just drafted the best card in WB and called it a day.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/60173f30d70a8b1048089735

The fundamental issue I see with your cube is that there are no ways to actually attack. Both players will play 2/2s and other similar creatures but everything is so similar so as to make things a wash. You also have no archetypes or decks defined yet. I see you have some cards or ideas but it's just putting cards together. I would try to write down imaginary decks and then transport them into the cube. For example, you have Drake Haven but no cards that work with it. You have artifact removal but no actual artifacts. You have 7 drops but they are pointless for most decks.

It seems to me that going from 2s and 3s to 7s is a mistake. It de facto puts too many expensive cards in the cube. Either way, if you want to do this, I would put far, far more 2s and fewer 3s. I would also consider playing a bounceland manabase.

Also, please don't run Folio of Fancies. It's just a dumb card that will win games by itself by coming down on turn two.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

LadyMapi said:
That hurts, but it's not like I didn't know it was coming. :p
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I'm sorry to hear that, I just wanted to lend a hand. Really, it's normal. My cube is a extremely standard stuff and yet it has taken me more than a year to reach the point where I think it's ok.

I would try to draft archetypes with the explicit goal of overcoming a crowded board of 2/2s and 3/2s. Try to build a prototype deck for each. I would also try to have far, far more 2s than 3s and look for ways to "cheat" whenever possible, like Echo. Still, I think it's going to be very difficult to create a healthy environment with your cost restrictions.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Karn Cuberated said:
Would be grateful if you took a look at the list, it has changed a lot (however, I haven't taken part in testing your cube, I guess ._.): https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/gaul?view=curve
I also have to say I probably taught the bots on cubecobra to pick up fixing highly, so now they gobble it up as soon as it appears on their radar.
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Your cube is fairly standard, so I felt pretty confident drafting it:


My first deck was thsi one. I first picked Rofellos and went hard into ramp. You have a massive amount of mana dorks, far more than is probably healthy or needed. I could pass Fyndhorn Elves very easily. The goal of the deck is to ramp into something medium and then start dropping bombs. Probably inconsitent, like all ramp decks.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6017cd49090ca810584a6a22

My second deck was this Izzet tempo thingy. Fairly standard stuff, I played it a bit like Vintage cube and focused on cheap interaction and otehr spells. Jitte is busted, I think it's going to win many games on its own.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6017cf6b090ca810584a8700

My third was this Grixis deck with poor fixing. I think I drafted wrong because I could have gone into mono red burn. I drafted 9 burn spells plus Grim Lavamancer and a bunch of other similar stuff. You probably have too much of it.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6017d154090ca810584a907e

Then I again drafted a typical Izzet aggressive deck. UR is the most powerful combination in most cubes so I just picked cheap interaction (though no counterspells, sadly), disruptive creatures and that's it.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deckbuilder/6017d361090ca810584aac13

Some cards that I do not recommend for being too powerful or useless:



I would also remove all the red burn creatures like:



Other than that, it's fine. It's a very traditional cube with most of the "Game ruining bullshit" like Oppossition, Upheaval and Armaggedon gone. You ahve reduced the number of signets and other artifact ramp. You can either refine it or take it to a more Riptide-lab approach with defined archetypes and a higher synergy focus.
 
Karn Cuberated

Karn Cuberated

Erik Twice said:
My first deck was thsi one. I first picked Rofellos and went hard into ramp. You have a massive amount of mana dorks, far more than is probably healthy or needed. I could pass Fyndhorn Elves very easily. The goal of the deck is to ramp into something medium and then start dropping bombs. Probably inconsitent, like all ramp decks.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6017cd49090ca810584a6a22
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Ramp is an unsolved task for me, which you highlighted correctly. I feel really unsure about what I want to do with my ramp decks. Some time ago I did cut several dorks, as you recommend to do it now, but other people recommended adding even more instead of removing some. The problem is I don't really know how many I need. I want like 5 mana-elves to be available to people who want to draft fast Grull/mono-Green Midrange (t2 Rabblemaster/ramp into Glorybringer/Thundermaw Hellkite), plus I need a lot for the dedicated ramp archetype (and, maybe, several more just for the case people fight over the same lane/lose some dorks due to how cards are spread across the packs). The deck you assembled has 8 rampers in total (including Garruk Wildspeaker and Nissa Worldwaker), which is the number I feel uncomfortable at. I usually try having at least 10-12 when I'm ramping into 7-8 mana things, and have seen some people run even more. I really don't know what to aim at in this case.
Erik Twice said:
My third was this Grixis deck with poor fixing. I think I drafted wrong because I could have gone into mono red burn. I drafted 9 burn spells plus Grim Lavamancer and a bunch of other similar stuff. You probably have too much of it.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6017d154090ca810584a907e
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Maybe, bots just aren't very fond of burn pieces in my cube, but I'll keep an eye on their number, thank you.

Erik Twice said:
Some cards that I do not recommend for being too powerful or useless:

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As for the Jitte, I'm still willing to test it further. I understand people's concerns about it, but I actually think that in faster cubes in can be less broken. Plus, the abundance of main-deckable artifact hate might make it less oppressive than it once was. I've seen several games in my cube where people lost with Jitte under their control. (Un)Fortunately, in all three drafts in which Jitte has been around it has seen play only in Aggro decks. I have to test it in less quick match-ups (Midrange mirror, or Midrange vs. Control), where it should be more powerful.
Spreading Seas can perhaps be called ineffective, I run it mostly for the cantrip effect, but its "land destruction" aspect often matters as well, punishing more greedier decks. I'm planning to replace it either with Omen of the Sea or - more preferrably - with some pre-2018 cantrip. Does anyone have some in mind?
Sword of Fire and Ice falls into too powerful because of its protection clause, as far as I understand. Likewise Jitte, I haven't yet seen it in the matchup it can be bonkers good in (UR Control/Tempo). In other match-ups it so far has been OK, and I love the Stoneforge Mystic pulling swords out of the deck as it has some sort of historic reference in it.
Consecrated Sphinx has been alright in Control vs. Aggro, have to test it in slower matches (as you see, there're some cards I put into the list not too long ago and they still require being tested in certain situations).

Erik Twice said:
I would also remove all the red burn creatures like:

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You think they're inconistent (becase they "fade away"), I assume? Well, in R/x Aggro decks they've been performing fine even despite that, but I can see it being a problem in R/x Tempo, so, maybe, I'll indeed replace them.

Thank you so much for such detailed feedback, it's been of great help! Would like to hear more opinions on the ramp problem (and I, maybe, should revive my thread on that matter).
 
ravnic

ravnic

Erik Twice said:
I first attempted to build a deck around Inga Rune-Eyes but failed miserably, I don't know how it should work.



My first draft went very poorly. I overfocused on ramp and green when I picked Vernal Bloom and I derailed.

https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6017245cd70a8b1048079e53
Click to expand...

Why do you think it went poorly? That deck looks very, very strong to me. Card draw, removal and enough ramp to cast Godzilla or flood the board with Ant Queen.


My second draft didn't go too well. I got into blink early but I got a lot of enablers and few targets. There are ways to control the game, but it feels like one of those decks where you get extra cards and bounce and end up dying to a vanilla creature stomping your face:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/601727dfd70a8b104807be14
Click to expand...

I'll have an eye on the number of blink targets, you could really use more here. Even when Soul Warden and Pious Evangel in the sideboard are solid when you're blink stuff.

In my small experience with your cube, I did not find a lot of cards I wouldn't play outside a given strategy or deck. However, I think a very large number of cards I would only play outside of their archetype begrudgingly. For example, I could play a threaten effect but I would rather not. I could play a morph, but I would rather play a more efficient creature.
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I do think my morphs are all efficient enough to be on a similar level to the rest of my cube. Are there any that you disliked in particular?

All of the three Threaten effects in my cube have an additional purpose to being a sacrifice payoff and okay in aggro. Malevolent Whispers works with the red based madness theme, Jeering Instigator helps goblin tribal and the less common morph deck to reach it's numbers, and Act of Aggression is, as a defensive removal spell, flexible enough for every red deck in the format.

In a sense, I feel I'm not so much excited about finding a cool synergy but relived I can dodge a messy card.
...

At a glance, I also felt you have too many sacrifice, discard outlets or cards that create tokens. I felt I was flooded with them and that the challenge was having enough bread and butter cards to support my deck. I also felt complexity was very high.
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I have one of the least wordy cubes around here and I value elegant and easy to comprehend card desgins highly, because I often draft with less experienced players mostly. So I don't really buy the high complexity issue. I don't mean to be unthankful, but is it possible, that you are mostly uncomfortable with my low power level? Maybe you just take Scourge Devil begrudgingly if you're not into madness, but he should be rock solid in different red aggressive decks.

Erik Twice said:
I would try to par things down a bit and simplify the cube. Perhaps try to have fewer themes into more versatile cards. More cards that support several archetypes and are good enough to pivot into a different deck like:



And fewer like:



You have 500 cards, so it should be possible to reduce them by a lot. Hope that helps!
Click to expand...

Mastermind and Kitesail might prove to be cutworthy, time will tell. But Skirk Marauder is just the right power level for a 187 creature at my power level. Sure, it is subjective if this power level makes for fun game play, but so far I haven't had a single complain from the 30+ people that drafted my cube regarding the overall power level.

To the additions: I might give the bouncer a try. However, War Marshal is already in and the Looter was cut for being a liiittle too good. Looting every turn and being deadly with equipment was just very strong.

Thanks for the feedback so far and don't get overwhelmed with all the requests from us here :D
 
LadyMapi

LadyMapi

Erik Twice said:
I'm sorry to hear that, I just wanted to lend a hand. Really, it's normal. My cube is a extremely standard stuff and yet it has taken me more than a year to reach the point where I think it's ok.

I would try to draft archetypes with the explicit goal of overcoming a crowded board of 2/2s and 3/2s. Try to build a prototype deck for each. I would also try to have far, far more 2s than 3s and look for ways to "cheat" whenever possible, like Echo. Still, I think it's going to be very difficult to create a healthy environment with your cost restrictions.
Click to expand...


It doesn't actually hurt or anything. It's more of a "dang it, the problems I've started noticing myself are that obvious, huh?" kinda thing. I'm probably going to have to rebuild it from scratch at some point — I think I can get a healthy format going, but I basically have no one to go off of so that's kinda hard.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

ravnic said:
Why do you think it went poorly? That deck looks very, very strong to me. Card draw, removal and enough ramp to cast Godzilla or flood the board with Ant Queen.
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I don't really know. I fear it's going to get stuck with bad hands a large amount of the time and lose to a sweeper or removal spell on the right creature.

I didn't know how to trigger Inga's death trigger. Three creatures are a lot. Perhaps a wrath or a sacrifice effect? But it's in blue and a 3U 3/3 that scries for 3 is not great if my experience with Zendikar is right.

All of the three Threaten effects in my cube have an additional purpose to being a sacrifice payoff and okay in aggro.
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What I mean is that I don't quite feel like I'm rewarded for taking these cards as being forced to make do with them. As in, ideally, I would not run a Malevolent Whispers and ony do because I don't have enough playable cards elsewhere.

I think the goal should be to make me excited to take Malevolent Whipsers. I think it's possible to turn "this is okay in aggro" to "this is better for aggro".

So I don't really buy the high complexity issue. I don't mean to be unthankful, but is it possible, that you are mostly uncomfortable with my low power level?
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No, I don't think it's that. I do admit I may not be used to the cards and find them wordier for that reason.

To the additions: I might give the bouncer a try. However, War Marshal is already in and the Looter was cut for being a liiittle too good. Looting every turn and being deadly with equipment was just very strong.
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For me it's not so much the cards themselves as the type of card. I just look at a handful of cards in the cube and think "Mm, there must be a better way to do this". Setting power level aside, I like the Bouncer because it combines discard synergies with bounce in a package all decks might be interested in, unlike Matermind which only goes in one deck.

Anyways, I hope it's useful to you. Take my comments with a grain of salt, I'm far from the most knowledgeable in this forum hahaha
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

LadyMapi said:
It doesn't actually hurt or anything. It's more of a "dang it, the problems I've started noticing myself are that obvious, huh?" kinda thing. I'm probably going to have to rebuild it from scratch at some point — I think I can get a healthy format going, but I basically have no one to go off of so that's kinda hard.
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I can see that. If it helps, I think taking a piece of paper and starting from scratch by putting the cards you truly want in helps a lot. It helped me shed a lot of filler and my cube is far more typical than yours.

I think it can be done but it will be difficult at first since, like you say, your cube is unique and you don't have a lot of references to fall on. In comparison I just need to be told not to run Oppossition.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Karn Cuberated said:
The problem is I don't really know how many I need. I want like 5 mana-elves to be available to people who want to draft fast Grull/mono-Green Midrange (t2 Rabblemaster/ramp into Glorybringer/Thundermaw Hellkite), plus I need a lot for the dedicated ramp archetype
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It's hard. At first I had a lot of ramp and I quickly realized I didn't need most of it to support Gruul Midrange. It always seems you need more than you actually do. I can't talk about the right number but I can tell you it's probably less than you think.

I think megaramp as an archetype is not great for a cube's health. However, I do like to shift it from pure green to something that relies on cards like Gilded Lotus and Worn Powerstone. It's more archetype-like that way as opposed to just putting dorks together.

You think they're inconistent (becase they "fade away"), I assume? Well, in R/x Aggro decks they've been performing fine even despite that, but I can see it being a problem in R/x Tempo, so, maybe, I'll indeed replace them.
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I just think they are pretty unnecessary. At the end of the day, they are just damage to the face aren't they? They don't really help any particular archetype or deck, they are just very good Lava Axes. I think you can put those cards to better use.

For example, I could run those cards in my Izzet decks. I was tempted because 8 to the face sounds very, very good. But it feels a raw concession to sheer damage more than a fun dynamic.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Peter LaCara said:
Anyway, take a crack at The Arena Cube, if you're still in the mood:
http://cubecobra.com/cube/list/petesarena
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I've played a ton of Historic on Arena so I knew all the cards. My first draft was this Esper control deck. Three Wraths and a bunch of removal can't go wrong. I think that, unlike other cubes, Field of the Dead is fairly strong and should be palyable even when people take lands as highly as they should.
http://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6019d21e832cdf1039896803

My second deck was a Gruul ramp deck. I forced it more than I should but it should work. It's light in interaction and doesn't ramp too hard but if I start hard-casting the top end...
http://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6019d43b832cdf103989817e

This deck has similar issues. It doesn't really come online until turn three but if I start blinking...
http://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6019d662832cdf10398996b3

More Simic ramp here:
http://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6019d867832cdf103989b973

While it might seem like a lot of ramp, it's just an easy archetype to draft. I get in by Thragtusk and it's all value from here. The cube seems perfectly finem perhaps a loose card or two and I wonder if the enchantment theme for Setessan Champion works but it seems fine at first glance. It represents the Historic card pool very well. Are there any angles you are looking for input in?
 
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