lordormordor says its good to not have life choke points
Card/Deck Low Power Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I like my incidental life gain, I want my players to have options to not just roll over to the efficient aggro decks in my cube, and for them to be able to claw their way back into a game they were losing.
Two questions:
1. How much worse is this compared to Damnation or Day of Judgment?
2. How much better is it than Earthquake or Black Sun's Zenith?
I am considering Languish as my one black boardwipe (in the core cube) but I'm scared it might be too efficient. Straight up four mana wraths are better than I want, but they aren't way too good. Earthquake and BSZ have been fine.
EDIT: Maybe I want this instead:
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Japahn once remarked that Languish is actually better than Damnation in some situations since you can abuse the symmetry with a big creature on your side. In your cube, it looks like the black creatures that can abuse that would include Carrion Feeder, Fallen Angel, Nightmare, Gurmag Angler, and some others in occasionals or dipping into the other colors. In general I don't see a lot of 5 toughness or effects that increase toughness. If I was drafting your list, I think I'd consider Languish to be nearly on par with Damnation, and it seems really appealing to put out one of the sacrifice creatures (Carrion Feeder / Fallen Angel) and then sacrifice stuff like Virus Beetle and Bone Shredder to keep it alive through a Languish. That would rock. I would expect Languish to kill almost any creature my opponent makes unless they're green, and I'd draft spot removal to mop that up.
I can't add any experience with Earthquake / Black Sun's Zenith, but I have both Day of Judgment and Languish. I think Languish is a strong pick in my cube. I have some stuff that is or can be more than 4 toughness, so it's not as strong, but that presents opportunities for fun abuse of the card as well. I think that's what you'd want, because otherwise there isn't much point in including Languish over Damnation.
None of this is new or surprising to you, but my main point is that Languish is a strong and appealing card to open.
Edit: Black Sun's Zenith is such an interesting comparison. In your CCC cube, when I filter the core cards of your cube, a big majority have toughness 2 or less, which makes these two spells very similar in your context. If you're specifically looking at casting it on turn 4, most creatures just die either way, and adding two or three -1/-1 counters effectively nerfs most of the creatures that don't die to Zenith but which would die to Languish. How long do your games go? How common is it for a player to get 6-7 lands in play? The Zenith can be better in those situations or if you can use its higher level of agency and flexibility to your advantage; the trouble is, even if you wipe the opposing board, you end up with shrunken creatures on your side of the board. The flexibility of the Zenith (and Mutilate, which you have in occasionals) is cool for agency. But I almost feel like this acts like a finisher choice, where either choice does approximately the same thing.
I can't add any experience with Earthquake / Black Sun's Zenith, but I have both Day of Judgment and Languish. I think Languish is a strong pick in my cube. I have some stuff that is or can be more than 4 toughness, so it's not as strong, but that presents opportunities for fun abuse of the card as well. I think that's what you'd want, because otherwise there isn't much point in including Languish over Damnation.
None of this is new or surprising to you, but my main point is that Languish is a strong and appealing card to open.
Edit: Black Sun's Zenith is such an interesting comparison. In your CCC cube, when I filter the core cards of your cube, a big majority have toughness 2 or less, which makes these two spells very similar in your context. If you're specifically looking at casting it on turn 4, most creatures just die either way, and adding two or three -1/-1 counters effectively nerfs most of the creatures that don't die to Zenith but which would die to Languish. How long do your games go? How common is it for a player to get 6-7 lands in play? The Zenith can be better in those situations or if you can use its higher level of agency and flexibility to your advantage; the trouble is, even if you wipe the opposing board, you end up with shrunken creatures on your side of the board. The flexibility of the Zenith (and Mutilate, which you have in occasionals) is cool for agency. But I almost feel like this acts like a finisher choice, where either choice does approximately the same thing.
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This is why I love riptide lab. You ask for opinions on a card and you get a thorough analysis of it in the context of your cube, highlighting cool interactions and such. Wow, thanks!
I'd say you get to 6-7 lands in about half of the games - it really depends on the deck though.
The reason I am looking for a replacement for BSZ in my core cube is actually that the counters stay. Something like
control might not care, but many black based decks are relatively creature heavy themselves. They would prefer if their things could live trough your own wrath (stuff like Gurmag Angler or Nightmare) or actually ends up in the graveyard so it can be recurred.
And honestly, the more I think about it, I come to the conclusion, that Ritual of Soot would be better for me. It helps grindy black decks against aggressive opponents, even when they could already grow their Ajani's Pridemate or sac their Tuktuk, the Explorer, but it gives them a fair shot by not killing their curve topper. Also, more importantly, the black player can keep their Fallen Angel.
But then, there is a third option.
which is esentially a five-mana Damnation 99% of the time. Maybe just having a card that can really kill everything would be cooler for black to have, even when it's one mana higher.
I've also looked at:
Would also be a complete board clear 95% of the time, but leaves a little more room to abuse it. And it will never kill your Nightmare.
I'd say you get to 6-7 lands in about half of the games - it really depends on the deck though.
The reason I am looking for a replacement for BSZ in my core cube is actually that the counters stay. Something like
control might not care, but many black based decks are relatively creature heavy themselves. They would prefer if their things could live trough your own wrath (stuff like Gurmag Angler or Nightmare) or actually ends up in the graveyard so it can be recurred.And honestly, the more I think about it, I come to the conclusion, that Ritual of Soot would be better for me. It helps grindy black decks against aggressive opponents, even when they could already grow their Ajani's Pridemate or sac their Tuktuk, the Explorer, but it gives them a fair shot by not killing their curve topper. Also, more importantly, the black player can keep their Fallen Angel.
But then, there is a third option.
which is esentially a five-mana Damnation 99% of the time. Maybe just having a card that can really kill everything would be cooler for black to have, even when it's one mana higher.
I've also looked at:
Would also be a complete board clear 95% of the time, but leaves a little more room to abuse it. And it will never kill your Nightmare.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
There’s a few other options at five mana that seem cool.
Languish isn't really worse than Day of Judgement or Damnation, it just goes into a different deck. You play Languish in a midrange deck with 5-toughness guys to clear a way for your creatures to win the game. You play Damnation/DOJ in your control decks to stabilize.
Two questions:
1. How much worse is this compared to Damnation or Day of Judgment?
2. How much better is it than Earthquake or Black Sun's Zenith?
I am considering Languish as my one black boardwipe (in the core cube) but I'm scared it might be too efficient. Straight up four mana wraths are better than I want, but they aren't way too good. Earthquake and BSZ have been fine.
EDIT: Maybe I want this instead:
I don't think I would compare any of these cards to scaling sweepers.
I don't really think that's true. You definitely CAN play Languish like that, and it's cool that it has that mode, but it absolutely will see play in control decks in most environments.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Honestly, a WB hybrid Fumigate would rock my world!I wish we would just have a five mana version of Day of Judgement innboth, white and black. But they probably won't do it, because it's so clearly worse than dozens of cards. Maybe, if I'm really lucky, they would make a
No offense, but I think Fumigate is one of the worst designs for wraths. Boardwipes give the control player a way to stabilize by destroying all threats. But they usually leave some hope for the aggro player, who will immediately check opponent's life total and think: okay, I dealt them a bunch of damage, they're at XY, hmm ... maybe I can still get this.
Fumigate just kills all hope and thrill.
Fumigate just kills all hope and thrill.
I will raise you a
blegh
There are however many wrath’s worth it
And many many more.
funny, besides the og wog the wrath’s became lower power until the the end of premodern, then all wheels did fall off.
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To be fair, "Languish is a cheaper Wildfire without the land destruction" is a neat way of looking at the card. I don't think it's strong enough to create that deck by itself (Wildfire putting everyone back four lands is pretty key to the archetype working), but Wildfire is a bit of a special case anyways.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Hmmm... Something to ponder! I would also settle for a
wrath with a non-targeted Helping Hand tacked on So, I was considering some lower powered planeswalkers for my occasionals module. I don't want them to be too oppressive and snowbally, they needed to be good but not too good in an environment where Honored Hydra or Seeker of the Way are fine cards to take early. I also wanted them to be not to wordy, as I hate nothing more than reading planeswalkers where each ability is 3-4 lines of text. These are my five candidates right now:
Now I want to know if you think that any one of them could be too much for my Casual Champions Cube.
Now I want to know if you think that any one of them could be too much for my Casual Champions Cube.
Your choices are decent, but if you want them to be unwordy, and unoppressive have you considered the uncommon walkers from WAR? (Sorted by price since that's a decent power gauge).
Many of them are basically enchantments that you can attack, and if you don't have proliferate and such in your cube then they can only tick down like twice. I really like them, but many of them are still quite strong depending on the environment, and some are too niche to be played.
Many of them are basically enchantments that you can attack, and if you don't have proliferate and such in your cube then they can only tick down like twice. I really like them, but many of them are still quite strong depending on the environment, and some are too niche to be played.
Oh, right, I excluded them on purpose. Some are pretty cool, but I am only putting these into my occasionals (so every second draft one person will have a plameswalker, if they would always end up in main decks that is), so I wanted them to be a little more exciting. I want, for this rare occasion, to have people get the "real" planeswalker feeling – ticking up and down, defending your value engine or potential game ender. Just not in a way that it becomes GRBS.
I don't think three 1/1s for 5(!) mana is going to be too much immediate value in most boards.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I mean do remember which thread you're in
I guess it's okay as an etb. I have Geist-Honored Monk in my core, which is probably somewhat compareable in that regard making two fliers. It's just that three blockers make it so much more likely that Elspeth won't get attacked down. Sure, Vraska and Chandra cann kill one thing, but they are worse against multiple threats. And they cost six!
I mean do remember which thread you're in
Cloudgoat Ranger gives you a 3/3 you can make into a dragon in addition to the 3 1/1s! Pretty comparable to Elspeth, and that was a change I looked to make back in the day.
Jace Beleren is way better than people give it credit for. I'm not saying it's too strong, but I am saying it's a cut above the other four. It's three mana, it can arrive at 5 loyalty if it looks even remotely in danger, it's really hard to kill it with damage through repeated +2s... probably wouldn't be what I'd choose over the swarm of identical "five mana +1: card -3: worth a card -8: ultimate" idiots (would definitely also avoid Jace, Architect of Thought and go for something more like Jace, Unraveler of Secrets)
Jace is the type of card that's so simple players don't feel bad loosing to it. IMO that makes Jace a good choice for Cubes that normally wouldn't play cards as powerful as he is.