Card/Deck Low Power Card Spotlight

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ritual of the machine is probably my favorite card discussed so far. The flavor and art on it are top notch, and the conditionality attached to it both balances a powerful effect, while making it more interesting.

Domestication is a neat card as well, because its costs much less then threads, and you can interact with it via combat buffs.

Sometimes though, I like to have these cm effects function in the role of fun police for ramp or value reanimator players, and the micro cm's in blue (while being more fair) are terrible in that role. I remember threads being more of an anti-aggro sb card for control back in the day.

I think I really like confiscate, and its kind of interesting to me the idea of running enslave alongside it, maybe as part of a UB tap out control deck.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I've cubed with both, and found that {U}{U}{U} is asking a lot of a player, even if most times the pilot does have the mana by the time they hit turn six; it's just that the few times they don't, it's usually catastrophic. Confiscate steals planeswalkers plenty fine, anyways!
 
Speaking of self mill, a couple of older cards that are now more interesting



This never used to be good back in the day but now you put five cards in (plus the memories) which powers all sorts of things if you have a heavy graveyard theme.



This is actually quite exciting. You will always be left with at least one of the seven cards (as you can remove the memories) but if you have some random sorceries or fetches then you can select your best cards. It will turn on threshold and prob delirium for a turn and get you some way to an empty deck for lab man or bow of nylea shenanigans.
 
Only downside to Brain Freeze is false advertising if you don't actually support storm. Might want to print reminder text on a custom version that says "Storm NOT supported. Use only for self-mill!!!"
 
Only downside to Brain Freeze is false advertising if you don't actually support storm. Might want to print reminder text on a custom version that says "Storm NOT supported. Use only for self-mill!!!"


The future is now. We have incidental storm support sending people false signals.
 
I just think people are really digging deep if they are planning to use brain freeze as some kind of janky entomb or delve enabler is all. Outside storm or a seriously pushed mill theme, that card is straight up unplayable.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I just think people are really digging deep if they are planning to use brain freeze as some kind of janky entomb or delve enabler is all. Outside storm or a seriously pushed mill theme, that card is straight up unplayable.

It really isn't janky in its role. The traditional cards filling that role are things like thought scour and dream twist, and brain freeze can outperform any of those cards, while also providing a way to justify running a storm kill condition.

Its not as good a pure reanimator combo enabler as entomb (what is?), but what it does do is support both decks simultaneously, which you should be doing anyways if you are supporting storm at all. Supporting storm isn't very difficult at either very high or relatively low power levels, and it certainly has a niche to fill in cube.
 
If you are supporting storm, you'll get no arguments from me on running Brain Freeze. I'm not convinced it's that easy to get enough mana quickly enough, but that's very dependent on speed of the cube and prevalence of aggro among other factors. Regardless, I'm not sure comparing freeze to scour or dream twist is fair since the former replaces itself and the latter has flashback so sort of replaces itself, and they both cost half as much. And neither is cubeable outside a heavy mill theme. This isn't quite going Tallowisp deep, but it's closer than you think it is. ;)

I'd also caution reading too much into the match you posted with the UB storm/reanimator deck. All the times he used brain freeze on himself was both in desperation and also because his two reanimator targets were combo enablers (one drew him 7 or 14 cards and is arguably the most powerful reanimation target in the game and the other potentially made infinite mana for him). And he missed more than once on that play because brain freeze is an extremely janky reanimator enabling card.

And again, that deck worked because he was also running and liberally using ancestral recall (broken), time spiral (broken), time twister (broken), channel (broken). His deck was not good because he was brain freezing himself to enable his 2 random reanimation cards he kept drawing hoping to lucksack into one of his two creatures. It was also helping that one deck he played featured deathrite shaman along side oath of druids with the tech being burst lightning his own deathrite to trigger oath.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
If you are supporting storm, you'll get no arguments from me on running Brain Freeze. I'm not convinced it's that easy to get enough mana quickly enough, but that's very dependent on speed of the cube and prevalence of aggro among other factors. Regardless, I'm not sure comparing freeze to scour or dream twist is fair since the former replaces itself and the latter has flashback so sort of replaces itself, and they both cost half as much. And neither is cubeable outside a heavy mill theme. This isn't quite going Tallowisp deep, but it's closer than you think it is. ;)

I'd also caution reading too much into the match you posted with the UB storm/reanimator deck. All the times he used brain freeze on himself was both in desperation and also because his two reanimator targets were combo enablers (one drew him 7 or 14 cards and is arguably the most powerful reanimation target in the game and the other potentially made infinite mana for him). And he missed more than once on that play because brain freeze is an extremely janky reanimator enabling card.

And again, that deck worked because he was also running and liberally using ancestral recall (broken), time spiral (broken), time twister (broken), channel (broken). His deck was not good because he was brain freezing himself to enable his 2 random reanimation cards he kept drawing hoping to lucksack into one of his two creatures. It was also helping that one deck he played featured deathrite shaman along side oath of druids with the tech being burst lightning his own deathrite to trigger oath.


Its really far from tallowisp territory. Tallowisp is pretty close to non-functional outside of making some modifications to it, while brainfreeze sees play in a lot of existing cubes already.

The topic kind of splits here, so let me address each prong individually.

1) Comparison of thought scour and dream twist vs. brain freeze. Presumably, if we are even in the market for this, we have a heavy focus on the graveyard and self-mill. Any conversation as to whether brain freeze fills a "janky" role is an immediate non-issue, as this entire class of cube has a need for these types of interactions. Than the question becomes whether we want to layer storm on, or if we want to still include brain freeze on as a super self-mill tool. I'll acknowledge there is an an elegance sub-issue in the latter case, but that varies playgroup to playgroup. Either way, this is a unique and interesting way to approach self-mill from a designers standpoint, that opens up several doors, and shouldn't be discounted.

The potential ceiling on this card, in its role, is way higher than either scour or twist, and in formats that really want to fill the yard, this shouldn't be discounted.

2) The general fesiability of storm in a format. This is going to be a format specific issue, and I feel that you're being unfairly dismissive. Of course some formats will have issues with aggro decks being too fast or what not--its up to the designer to approach those issues and balance them if appropriate, just as you would do with every other single archetype you would support.

You're also reading way too much into the individual matches. You don't need broken cards in a power max environment to enable storm. Yes, the specific cube he was playing was structured so that storm would be a product of broken engines, but that shouldn't be taken as indicative that storm needs broken support cards to exist. Its really easy to design storm for low power formats, for example. Ultimately you just have to provide the mana generation tools, coupled with library searching or sifting tools, and of course the combo kill conditions. Any true combo deck functions as such, since they are critical mass decks.

But lets step back a bit and look at this as a macro problem: how to incorporate storm in the least poisonous manner possible. Staying in our UB frame for the moment, LSV's observation that its possible to design storm so that it overlaps eloquently with reanimator is really helpful if you want to support storm in a format.

This is again, a design choice that you have control over. For example, when selecting reanimator monsters, you could select cards that mutually support both a reanimation and storm deck, and thats a design principle that you saw in action here. In fact, taking an even more macro point of view, thats probably a strong rule of thumb when looking at all color combinations you would run storm in (and an argument you already made re: UR): that the storm pieces should be naturally supporting something the color combination is already interested in doing. In fact, you could step even further back, and note that this is probably the way to incorporate sub themes into a main theme. That vintage cube draft is really helpful in displaying how and why you might do this.

So to inject brain freeze into the discussion again, and following the flow of this thread where we were originally talking about about self-mill pieces (and relating back to prong 1), if my UB combination is already interested in self milling, and I'm in the market for self-mill tools, than this is suddenly a great opportunity for me to support storm if I wish, in a fairly compact, as non-poisonous a manner as possible. Thats pretty neat.

In addition, if in my format, I have designed the UB decks so that as many of the pieces as possible work interchangeably between a storm or reaniamator approach, than the cost of picking a mid-pack brainfreeze becomes much lower if I was wavering between storm and reanimator. This is really nice to have, because one of the classic problems with storm is that it pivots horribly in draft. By making the pieces interchangeable with a sort of "bread and potatoes" UB theme, than going early into storm suddenly is less likely to result in a trainwreak, because you always have the reanimator safety value, which is exactly what you saw happen in the draft video.

To be really direct, one of storm's big problems is that its traditionally incorporated into a cube as a fully functional deck on its own, which is probably a gigantic mistake for all of the millions of reasons we have already done to death. However, its much better off as a sub-theme that can pivot back and forth between a main theme. Storm goes from this notoriously hard deck to draft and design to something reasonable when it has something it can pivot into and out of, and Brain freeze plays a role in this when you can support both aspects of its functionality.
 
I don't think we are going to agree on this, and that's cool.

For me, it boils down to trying to create overlap of archetypes with cards that really suck at being overlap cards.

There is nothing you can say to convince me that a good reanimator deck wants Brain Freeze. Because it doesn't. If you can't deck someone with brain freeze, it's a bad card. Even in a dredge deck or the like, there are so many other things you'd rather be using to fill your yard than brain freeze. Darkblast, dredge it back is so much more useful than T2 Brain Freeze myself. Not even going to bother listing more examples because I'll be here all day.

The problem with storm is that it rarely interacts with the other side of the table. That means it is either unbeatable or essentially not viable in many matchups. If your opponent has a fast deck and you can't combo off by T4, you basically lose. If you can consistently do that though, you pretty much can't lose. It either works or it doesn't in the all-in storm deck.

That UB deck in the video had one 5 mana counter soft counter/soft removal spell. That's it. So either it combos and wins or it gets run over by everything capable of playing something aggressive each turn. In a low powered meta, how does someone accomplish a consistent T4 win with storm? Even in my retro list running some pretty broken stuff, this is not an easy thing to accomplish (I have yet to build a good storm deck FWIW). You can run all the untap dudes and bounce lands you want, can you generate 19 mana on T4 in Penny Pincher? How do you storm off without that kind of mana generation and a pile of draw 7's? Is storm really happening in peasant lists??

Trying to overlap reanimator with storm using brain freeze is not going to make storm less poisonous. It is just going to result in people building bad decks or ignoring your overlap card in much the same way Rage Forger has been this bogus go between in my modern cube for +1/+1 counters and aggressive red decks.

This being the low powered thread, I feel like trying to draw anything from Vintage cube is a really bad idea. Because a great deal of the decks that win in a vintage cube are not doing it off of brain storm in reanimator type tech. They are doing it off of drawing and playing broken cards and sandwiching those insane engines with a smattering of clunky draft picks. The last video I saw this guy drafted UG tempo and cascaded into Time Walk no fewer than 2 times. In the UB storm/reanimator deck, at least 21 cards were drawn off of Griselbrand. How many games are you going to lose with a free draw 14? Brain Freeze could have been storm crow for all it matters with that type of engine in your deck.

That is some of the appeal of Vintage cube. Because as long as you put 5-6 stupid cards in your deck, you can make something that really should suck and it has a decent change of doing well off the raw power of those cards.
 
I mean, really, a mid-game Brain Freeze after a 1-mana cantrip or two and your opponent casting something is gonna eat through 1/2+ of the opponent's remaining deck, and if you have a way to recur it, that's game with virtually no work required to get there. It's not a hard card to combo-win with, it's just a different angle on storm than people are used to (an angle, IMHO, that was intended originally by its design). You don't need to win T2 with Brain Freeze; in a more fair environ, it can easily get you there T6+ as a control win-con. And really, the kind of myopic thinking that Brain Freeze belongs only in a fast-combo deck is the same thing that strangled out value reanimator. I'm really lucky because my core playgroup doesn't have these biases and are happy to experiment with the tools I provide them. As such, I haven't included Brain Freeze (yet) because I recognize it to be a really easy card to win with. You just have to be willing to win with it a bit later than T4 and have some board presence leading up to your showdown turn(s).
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That UB deck in the video had one 5 mana counter soft counter/soft removal spell. That's it. So either it combos and wins or it gets run over by everything capable of playing something aggressive each turn. In a low powered meta, how does someone accomplish a consistent T4 win with storm? Even in my retro list running some pretty broken stuff, this is not an easy thing to accomplish (I have yet to build a good storm deck FWIW). You can run all the untap dudes and bounce lands you want, can you generate 19 mana on T4 in Penny Pincher? How do you storm off without that kind of mana generation and a pile of draw 7's? Is storm really happening in peasant lists??

Right, but you don't have to verbatim recreate that deck, Some formats shouldn't even support storm (see our fair vs. combo format discussion), but for people that wish too and are struggling to do so, here is a format that did so in a neat way. Also, storm decks can be built to be slower with higher degrees of resiliency: you don't have to always design storm to have 0 interaction and kill by turn 4.

Exactly how you would do this should be its own discussion; rather than noting format or power differences and stopping there.

The Penny cube can produce infinite mana by turn 4, though its storm deck is much more focused on comboing slower, with a higher degree of resiliency and interaction. This is because its based off of the familiar storm deck from pauper, which was/is always slower, and can only really kill by turn 4-5 (this is slow by classic pauper standards). Between bouncelands, depletion lands, and invasion sac lands, as well as other untap effects in blue and green, there is ample room to design storm if one wishes at these power levels.

If we stop thinking of brain freeze as "storm kill condition" for a moment, and think of it in terms of "self mill enabler," than including it in a format becomes much less angsty and much more binary: do I have decks that are interested in self mill, yes or no. Thats nothing like rage forger, as all that brain freeze has to be able to do to justify its slot in the cube, is for a format to want an effect like dream twist or thought scour as enablers. The closer we are to actively wanting self-mill enablers, the easier it is to justify the include.

The more we step away from that, the more we have to critically examine the include, but I wouldn't just dismiss this card. If you stop and think for a moment, what a pushed self-mill card might look like, it certaintly seems plausible that such a card might involve the historically broken "storm" keyword.

You are free to the opinion that running brain freeze as a self-mill tool in vintage cube reanimator is janky, and thats fine, but I think its worth noting that one of the best players in the world explicitly disagrees with you.
 
I don't really like Brain Freeze. For me it's just like Viridian Emmisary it might work decently, but it's not really "shaped" right. LSV knew what to do with it, but would any random Joe? It isn't about if we can step away for it being a Storm wincon, To many it is just "that storm wincon"... if you want turbo self mill, you could use Glimpse the Unthinkable, its storm count 2.33 Brain Freeze for no work. And that one is useless as a wincon if you can't recur it. I think in all but a focused environment (low or high power), so is brain freeze.

I like self mill in GB, like Commune with the Gods
 
You are free to the opinion that running brain freeze as a self-mill tool in vintage cube reanimator is janky, and thats fine, but I think its worth noting that one of the best players in the world explicitly disagrees with you.

Who might that be and where does he explicitly disagree with me? Genuinely would like to hear his opinion. But is the context of his opinion based on Vintage cube? Because again, apples and oranges here. That UB deck had two really sweet targets for reanimator and his play to try and brain freeze them into the yard was totally appropriate for the situation. I would have tried the same move. Replace Griselbrand for Kokusho or Skeletal Vampire. Still want to try and brain freeze that into your yard?

You don't need to win T2 with Brain Freeze; in a more fair environ, it can easily get you there T6+ as a control win-con. And really, the kind of myopic thinking that Brain Freeze belongs only in a fast-combo deck is the same thing that strangled out value reanimator.

Look, I'll let this go after this last reply. Have you actually tried this in a cube deck? This all sounds good in theory, but if you have a bunch of cheap cantrips in your hand late in the game, what were you playing early (i.e. you are probably really behind in the game)? And if you just have a lot of those cards in your deck to where you pull them early and late, how does this deck of yours have late game anything? Aggro decks running 8+ one drops have no late game because they run 8+ one drops. Control decks generally have a much higher curve and so have very few cards like that.

So if you aren't actually running combo cards that either generate a ton of mana, untap a bunch of lands, etc, you just are not likely to be in a position on T6 or whenever where you can just slam out a 5 storm brain freeze. In an actual game, this probably isn't going to happen (or if it does, it's not doing enough and you lose anyway). These are those moments when you look to side cards out of your deck and brain freeze goes immediately. And for a second, you ask yourself why it was in your deck to begin with.

The second part of this...
it's not that a late game Brain Freeze can't win you the game. Or that you can't get some supreme value sequencing some stuff and slamming 12 cards in your yard or your opponents. I mean, it's a powerful card. These scenarios are possible. But with 360 REALLY good cards in cube. Is this truly a high pick for ANY deck that isn't trying to combo? As a control player, do you honestly want one of your 23 slots going to this card in the off chance you grap 3 brainstorms off that late game compulsive research and your opponent is down to 12 cards in his library and WHAM! What meta are we talking about where this gets picked by anybody in any deck not looking to abuse it or who isn't like "fuck me. I need a playable.... well, there's this brain freeze here... hmmm"? Value brain freeze is more ludicrous to me than value tinker (and that didn't work either).

I'm all about experimenting and thinking outside the box. I get into really ugly arguments at MTGS to the point where I've exhausted myself over this very subject. By all means push the boundaries and it's awesome that your group does that and that a bunch of people are arguing so vigorously over running brain freeze (go search that card at MTGS... lol). But just like when I had a fly up my ass about Tallowisp and Grillo tried to talk me off that ledge (he eventually did - I never even tested it), please at least entertain the idea that you all are on the same path right now with this brain freeze idea.

Or prove me all wrong. The holy grail for me has been how do I add combo without poisoning the well with nonsense, so I'm absolutely invested in this idea working despite my fierce objections to it.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Who might that be and where does he explicitly disagree with me? Genuinely would like to hear his opinion. But is the context of his opinion based on Vintage cube? Because again, apples and oranges here. That UB deck had two really sweet targets for reanimator and his play to try and brain freeze them into the yard was totally appropriate for the situation. I would have tried the same move. Replace Griselbrand for Kokusho or Skeletal Vampire. Still want to try and brain freeze that into your yard?

The individually that recorded the draft is Luis Scott-Vargas, he is one of the best magic players in the world, and probably the game's most beloved ambassador. You can read his bio here.

Its possible to take a set of concepts from one format, and calibrate them to another format. For example, you wouldn't just swap out griselbrand for kokusho and expect it to work. Sort of an implied premise behind overlapping a theme and sub-theme, is that you did the leg work so that they actually overlap one another.

This isn't entomb, he isn't powering the reanimator strategy only off of a thought scour clone, and it isn't what you want to build combo reanimator around--but it does have functionality as a reanimator enabler and storm kill condition.

I can agree with sigh that brain freeze is an inelegantly designed card for some drafters, and that might be a reason not to run it. However, I don't see how we can reasonably suggest that it can't fill a self-mill/mill kill condition role.
 
Top