Man there are so many things I wish I had responded to earlier here, the conversation has gone far and wide. I think I'm happier I didn't get too embroiled in this though.
The issues that have to be balanced with persist and undying creatures is that they come with a reasonable body and are likely to trade with aggro beaters rather than chump while also clogging the board. At a certain density, they are going to slow a format down (or in conjunction with other themes), which skews it away from tempo plays and more towards midrange or control. Now maybe you are not running a high density of them, maybe you want a slower format--I don't know, but its an issue with the cards that has to be weighed before including them, at least in so far as the theme of this thread is concerned.
When you are drafting any type of aggro, you have to place a priority on one drops, which are essential for the strategy to work. A card like blade splicer--while capable of fiting into an aggro deck--will be lower in the pick order simply because it is a three drop. Its just more likely to be drafted by a midrange player, where it serves as both a great blocker against aggro, and an effective threat against control.
I think my first point should be regarding how drafting aggro decks tends to work for me. This can vary a little with more in more comboy aggro decks or with more hybrid beaters but it has essentially held true in all but the most aggressive of cube formats. The attacking dorks and cards that make the aggro deck work tend to come around.
No one else is particularly interested in 2/1s for their body except you. Most of the time even making their presence spotty is good enough to get anyone else out of your yard, and sometimes even that isn't necessary.
The cards other archetypes are interested in, the ones that cost 1-3 and either have an above the curve body or are good at forcing damage while having some intrinsic other value, you more or less have first dibs on because you know elite vanguard doesn't sell very high.
The beauty of this is that as a person who has taken a one drop, a blade splicer, a finks, some land and an equipment, if something does start to go weird and it turns out someone is cutting your grass eating up the bears you wanted to wheel, your cards are super portable, and your deck is already looking like it's not going to lose it's aggressive edge just because you are going to have to broaden your read on the table.
I want more cards to feel like that.
I love finding myself with a time walk, a venser, and a clique and looking at the terror and the porcelain legionnaire in a pack and trying to get a feel for what I'd been passing and how I want to play tonight.
Yes, and the idea here is to find ways to avoid narrow roshambo aggro strategies.
Man this really bothers me. I really hope that there isn't too much actual roshambo in peoples cubes. I find a triangle really hard to believe, especially given how often people let control and midranged become inbred in peoples cubes, where control is often just the midranged deck with more disruption and less "go-big-fuel". I believe that in many people's cubes there is a real battle between going over and going under, and then there are reactive decks that try to fight both of these proactive strategies in order to not just die. I think, as you do, that a little go under is necessary, but I prefer to think of it as pressure because I feel like it frees up my thinking, and takes me away from looking at decks like precon packages.
Are you really seeing a lot of Roshambo? Aggro beating control and control beating midranged and midranged outlasting aggro?
It's so funny, all my midranged decks are funny value combo decks made up of silly loops and small creatures and tutoring and I always get eaten up by aggro and then have really entertaining games against control and midranged.
Actually come to think of it, besides my aggro decks, most of the other decks I make in cube are really weird examples of their kind. I guess it's because aggro ideally has a much narrower scope of the game in mind and most designers just seed their cube with everything to build a handful of fine aggro decks and everyone else goes to great lengths to avoid those cards.
Now lets compare this with
Tajic, blade of the legion. Its a powerful card with midrange stats--but needs a team of small creatures played turns 1-3 in order to hit its max potential, and is in aggressive colors. This effectively bridges the gap between aggro and midrange players, and provides an incentive for a Timmy player to actually see the small creatures in the pack. If hellkite was in the pack instead, Timmy just picks the dragon and continues to ignore the small creatures.
I really must be missing something regarding Tajic. When I see that card I read:
I am a 2/2 for 4 and whenever I attack, if you have a million other attacking creatures, I become a "The Abyss". If next turn, you still have a million creatures to attack with, you may activate your the abyss again, or in the case that your opponent has nothing to say about a million creatures attacking them, you may do a bunch of damage. To me it's like the lamest devotion god ever. Devotion to attacking creatures lol. I guess it blocks alright. I'll say that for it, it's a fine 4 mana grounded maze of ith.
I guess I'm also just super not into cards that are as linear as that. I wonder if I'd even play it in a midranged deck if the deck had two white army in can cards. I want people with all kinds of different cards in their pile to be able to pick up the same pack full of cards and see all kinds of different potential for them. Like how
mana leak looks like a great way to fend of
wrath of god or stay ahead for a weenie deck, it looks like a great
snapcaster mage target and early defense for a guy with a couple control cards or to the guy with the makings of a value/tempo deck it looks like a great way to fill in his turns and plays great in hand with the flash on his
boon satyr.
More importantly, you can't make an inclusive aggro archetype by shifting options away from the aggro players and towards the midrange and control players. I think you are a nice guy, and I like you and appreciate your posts--so don't take this as a personal attack-- but I do feel your bias is coming out a bit here.
It's so weird because I really like playing fun-police decks, though I find they can lead to a lot of sour tastes in people's mouths. I guess it's kinda close to the reasoning wizards dropped stone rain. Well I'm not of that mindset. I like the fun police decks a lot more when they are, well, fun, though. Whether that means waddel and legacy's brainstorms and resource attacking beside one drops and DRS or instant classic black grindy graveyard aggro or even something simpler like the cutesy human weenies featuring Xathrid Necromancer and Dark Confidant, Jinxed Idol and Revilark you'd see the makings of from time to time in Eric's cube. I think I just don't want to play linear aggro in cube. There's finesse and art to it in constructed but cube isn't that refined and doesn't reward you with seeing through the matchup like a well playtested boros deck does. Moreover, I believe the roll of aggro as a separate and distinct entity in people's cubes could be improved. I was over the moon the first time I realized I might actually want to play damnation and earthquake in my zombies deck! That's so sick right?
I gotta know if you really think games would get to slow if there were more resilient aggro creatures running around that doubled as good blockers (or creatures that are good before wraths) for other archetypes. I find it hard to believe that blade splicer is way better for the long game decks than it is for the one trying to put on the pressure. I think giving aggro decks more cards (card advantage) and inevitability is also just a great way to air them out a bit.
Pyromasters over Hellriders maybe? If Aggro decks started having early pressure, but then being able to compete in the midgame as opposed to just trying to burn themselves out leading up to it, would that be so bad? Would we have to call them midranged decks?
SORRY ABOUT THE EYESORE GUYS
