Chris Taylor
Contributor
Man fuel for the cause needs to be cancel.
General Making Aggro more inclusive
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I am basically just sketching out ideas of things at this point. I would definitly need to reduce the number of U/G gold cards by about two or three. Scavange might also be a good way to provide late game staying power. I really like the gorgon because it looks like a nice wedge piece for several different archetypes.
Power conduit looks great. Thats the exact kind of card that would suck a johnny player into one of these non-narrow aggro archetypes. We just need to give him/her something sweet to do with it. I would love to have darksteel reactor actually be a thing.
Power conduit looks great. Thats the exact kind of card that would suck a johnny player into one of these non-narrow aggro archetypes. We just need to give him/her something sweet to do with it. I would love to have darksteel reactor actually be a thing.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Say this out loud with a fake Russian accent. What would a Russian guy even mean with 'man fuel'?
I ran it for a long time in my cube. It was super narrow, but I had one guy that snatched it up every draft. It's awesome with persist guys (makes them immortal), and a few other things. It's a nombo with undying unfortunately (unless you have another dude to put the +1/+1 counter on).
It's a fun card though and when it works it's sweet. I dropped it because it didn't make many decks and it is useless by itself.
That is a fair and valid argument, I think that even though +1/+1 are inherently very ingrained into interactions in capacity of making creatures larger, it's easy to have +1/+1 counters matter turn somewhat parasitic. Is it maybe preferable to have the +1/+1 theme be somewhat subtle so that it's more something that you realize when you sit down and draft that "hey man I've got a bunch of stuff that already deal with this I can easily snap up this sporeback troll "
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That could be. The thing is that for this hypothetical archetype to achieve its goal, it has to do the following:
1) Avoid the roshambo dichotomy of aggro/midrange, and sort of blur the two together.
2) Provide something fun and flashy for Timmy magic player to do that involves playing aggro: in this case, I hope, growing experiment one and company to hulk smash with huge monsters.
3) Provide something stimulating for Johnny magic player to do involving aggro: in this case, growing experiment one and company to farm as a counter resource.
Basically, be a non-narrow aggro package that provides something for more casual mindsets, while still being appealing to a competitive mindset. I have no idea if being a subtle part of the cube would help or hurt that, but I know there has to be a certain density of counters in those colors.
I don't mind the idea of running a few cards that excite the imagination and encourage brewing, even if they are somewhat narrow in scope, as long as they further the "inclusive aggro" plan. Power conduit, pushed in a somewhat open ended direction, but with a little support (lux cannon, darksteel reactor) might be fun for brewers.
1) Avoid the roshambo dichotomy of aggro/midrange, and sort of blur the two together.
2) Provide something fun and flashy for Timmy magic player to do that involves playing aggro: in this case, I hope, growing experiment one and company to hulk smash with huge monsters.
3) Provide something stimulating for Johnny magic player to do involving aggro: in this case, growing experiment one and company to farm as a counter resource.
Basically, be a non-narrow aggro package that provides something for more casual mindsets, while still being appealing to a competitive mindset. I have no idea if being a subtle part of the cube would help or hurt that, but I know there has to be a certain density of counters in those colors.
I don't mind the idea of running a few cards that excite the imagination and encourage brewing, even if they are somewhat narrow in scope, as long as they further the "inclusive aggro" plan. Power conduit, pushed in a somewhat open ended direction, but with a little support (lux cannon, darksteel reactor) might be fun for brewers.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
My buddy had a surprisingly well tuned darksteel reactor deck, with dismantle as the main enabler piece.
It was still awful.
Just an FYI that's a metric fuckton of gold cards. For reference, predominantly people run ~3 per guild (sometimes 4) at 360. Running so many is going to really mess with draft dynamics in a way that may not be entirely desirable.
EDIT: I see you addressed this in a later post, but maybe going further still is needed.
In regards to a green +1/+1 counters matter package, I think this looks nice as a start. (I'm sketching for a low powered cube but maybe that is given that we're running with this entire concept?)
not entirely sold on the grave troll, but it works as a graveyard enabler as well if you're into that, and it gets bigger if you've eaten up a graft-guy. I think the sexiest way to do this is to make it a group of cards you can slot into any deck that incidentally has a +1/+1 theme going on after a player just drafted some good cards with mechanics like unleash.
not entirely sold on the grave troll, but it works as a graveyard enabler as well if you're into that, and it gets bigger if you've eaten up a graft-guy. I think the sexiest way to do this is to make it a group of cards you can slot into any deck that incidentally has a +1/+1 theme going on after a player just drafted some good cards with mechanics like unleash.
In regards to a green +1/+1 counters matter package, I think this looks nice as a start. (I'm sketching for a low powered cube but maybe that is given that we're running with this entire concept?)
not entirely sold on the grave troll, but it works as a graveyard enabler as well if you're into that, and it gets bigger if you eat up a graft-guy.
Curse of Predation goes a long way in pushing the theme. Shit is real.
CML
Contributor
yeah i would not say experiment one is low-powered either!
i would look into cards like Cloudfin Raptor too. maybe some sliths and arcbound ravager would be a good fit. some of the more busted +1/+1 cards are 'fixed' by the nature of cube
I don't mind employing a theme that lets me justify including some cloudfin raptors. Doesn't the sliths almost all cost CC though?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That actually looks really reasonable Rasmus. Grave-troll I think is pretty reasonable, if not broken, and I think it would suck certain players into the archetype. I was also thinking maybe forgotten ancient.
--------
How would an artifact section have to look to accommodate arcbound ravager? I've never ran the card in my cube.
--------
How would an artifact section have to look to accommodate arcbound ravager? I've never ran the card in my cube.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Super super large. Custom erratta is in order I think.
I guess I should link the +1/+1 thread, I figured yall were up on this but here it is: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/1-1-counters.379/
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That's fine. Whenever I sketch out ideas I tend to be a bit biased towards the power level of my own cube. I'm not sure how big of an issue it really is for this type of archetype though, since it already has a powerful core in the form of experiment one. Its main concern is going to be the power level of the supporting cards, and the power level of removal. While I may not be thinking so about about exploiting the counters, so much as a synergistic deck that scales from an aggro deck into a midrange deck, you are free to explore that route. Laz's scuttlemutt cube is something you should probably look over.
I think with both approaches, we have to keep in mind the ability of sweepers/powered spot removal to undo all of the board development, and the ability of powered spot removal to out-compete ion storm. That is probably where power drop should occur for this to work.
I had completely forgotten about these guys:
Stingmoggie feels a bit slow, but it would be nice to have an on-theme utility creature to kill enchantments AND artifacts in red. Its also at a CC that would make it a good pod target, and its splashable. My inner-johnny just wants triskelion to be good.
I think paragon looks nice, if you make sure that there is enough other warriors for it not to be just a +1/+1 matters bear. Aggressive creatures in other colors (especially red and black?) tends to be warriors so maybe nothing to difficult. Stingmoggie also has the bonus of versitality, but maybe it's too slow?
This looks like a card that really can abuse undying and persist, and its somewhat mana intensive so it doesn't go out of hand (albeit this can be an argument both for and against I reckon, but having someone loop a strangleroot geist and a kitchen finks for free doesn't sound great either ).
It also lets you put counters on your opponents creature. Killing of undying creatures with just a single bolt for the additional cost of a counter and 2 mana?
This looks like a card that really can abuse undying and persist, and its somewhat mana intensive so it doesn't go out of hand (albeit this can be an argument both for and against I reckon, but having someone loop a strangleroot geist and a kitchen finks for free doesn't sound great either ).
It also lets you put counters on your opponents creature. Killing of undying creatures with just a single bolt for the additional cost of a counter and 2 mana?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So, I just watched Ivan Floch win PTM15 off of the back of archangel of Thune and nyx-fleece ram triggers, and that really has me wanting to incorporate a life-gain aggro section into my cube to mix with the existing humans aggro section. I've read Jason's article and looked over the old thread, but this is all pretty new to me.
For reference, the key pieces of the existing humans section are the following:
Angelic overseer is supposed to be the timmy bait for the achetype (though I should probably augment this with ion storm and hellion eruption).
The mainstays of the lifegain deck, as I imagine it, would be these two:
How much support would this archetype really need? Could I get away with running say, two or three pridemates and one archangel, than just sprinkle aggressive lifegain creatures throughout the rest of the cube?
If I go deeper, there are a few one drop humans I could run that would seem to fit in pretty well:
I'm not really too excited about soul warden and attendant, just because of the way they interact with the rest of the cube, while serra ascendant seems like he comes with a lot of potential issues that might require me to go too deeply into the lifegain archetype. After the fun of laboratory maniac, however, I kind of want to have Felidar Sovereign as another build around. If I can get it to that point though, it would really tie in a lot of elements and appeal to a broad swarth of players.
For reference, the key pieces of the existing humans section are the following:
Angelic overseer is supposed to be the timmy bait for the achetype (though I should probably augment this with ion storm and hellion eruption).
The mainstays of the lifegain deck, as I imagine it, would be these two:
How much support would this archetype really need? Could I get away with running say, two or three pridemates and one archangel, than just sprinkle aggressive lifegain creatures throughout the rest of the cube?
If I go deeper, there are a few one drop humans I could run that would seem to fit in pretty well:
I'm not really too excited about soul warden and attendant, just because of the way they interact with the rest of the cube, while serra ascendant seems like he comes with a lot of potential issues that might require me to go too deeply into the lifegain archetype. After the fun of laboratory maniac, however, I kind of want to have Felidar Sovereign as another build around. If I can get it to that point though, it would really tie in a lot of elements and appeal to a broad swarth of players.
I think the soul sisters come across as sort of unexciting, they obviously reward you for going into the life gain theme or playing lots of creatures or tokens, but it's not like scavenging ooze or kitchen finks that are inheritly powerful and playable outside its archetype.
This both plays into the human theme and the life gain theme, making it more modular I think. I know Jason's running a life gain theme in his cube and maaybe wrote an article? (I keep mentioning them since they're what lured me in, in the first place)
This both plays into the human theme and the life gain theme, making it more modular I think. I know Jason's running a life gain theme in his cube and maaybe wrote an article? (I keep mentioning them since they're what lured me in, in the first place)
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-subtheme-lifegain-part-one/
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-subtheme-lifegain-part-2/
There's not a lot I can say here beyond the articles. Nobody but the lifegain player wants a Soul Sister, so you want at most one of those. I liked the role the 1/1 Flying lifelink phyrexian mana guy played with overlapping demand for a Tezzeret AoB deck.
The biggest challenge here is curve. A lot of the cards that enable this stuff come at 2 CMC. Seraph Sanctuary and the Refuges were a nice touch. Double Finks slotted in well at 3, but might produce problems in weaker environments.
I would say that the lifegain theme will do better in a slightly weaker environment because it needs less explicit support, hence less of a need for narrow support cards.
As always, I like focusing on triggers and not raw life count, which has me rather gunshy regarding Serra Ascendant.
My PWs changed considerably with the theme, with Ajani Goldmane, Ajani Vengeant, and Sorin LoA all coming in, all of which aren't in my normal cube configuration.
I'd recommend starting with the core I suggested in the article and maybe trimming it back a bit / searching gatherer for alternatives, based on the strength of the cube. But remember the lifegain deck will have part of its 2-drop curve filled with pridemates, so you need to provide support elsewhere.
Zuran Orb was the most fun card of the theme. It's super narrow, but absurdly joyous to play with.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-subtheme-lifegain-part-2/
There's not a lot I can say here beyond the articles. Nobody but the lifegain player wants a Soul Sister, so you want at most one of those. I liked the role the 1/1 Flying lifelink phyrexian mana guy played with overlapping demand for a Tezzeret AoB deck.
The biggest challenge here is curve. A lot of the cards that enable this stuff come at 2 CMC. Seraph Sanctuary and the Refuges were a nice touch. Double Finks slotted in well at 3, but might produce problems in weaker environments.
I would say that the lifegain theme will do better in a slightly weaker environment because it needs less explicit support, hence less of a need for narrow support cards.
As always, I like focusing on triggers and not raw life count, which has me rather gunshy regarding Serra Ascendant.
My PWs changed considerably with the theme, with Ajani Goldmane, Ajani Vengeant, and Sorin LoA all coming in, all of which aren't in my normal cube configuration.
I'd recommend starting with the core I suggested in the article and maybe trimming it back a bit / searching gatherer for alternatives, based on the strength of the cube. But remember the lifegain deck will have part of its 2-drop curve filled with pridemates, so you need to provide support elsewhere.
Zuran Orb was the most fun card of the theme. It's super narrow, but absurdly joyous to play with.
CML
Contributor
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Also: Ajani Steadfast sounds like it would be nice as well, as the +1 on a random creature will pump pridemates before they deal damage.
Good call. I would run Steadfast over Goldmane if supporting the theme.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Jason, did the archetype come together often for you, and was it something the players actively enjoyed and sought to draft? You mentioned you took it out recently, have they missed it at all?
I did a few mockups of potential lists, and the card I dislike the most is--ironically--ajani's pridemate. It feels like a very needy card in terms of support. I would almost rather run some of the 2 drop lifelink bears alongside felidar sovereign.
I did a few mockups of potential lists, and the card I dislike the most is--ironically--ajani's pridemate. It feels like a very needy card in terms of support. I would almost rather run some of the 2 drop lifelink bears alongside felidar sovereign.
It came together super consistently, and players seemed to like it, although when somebody really got the "dedicated lifegain deck" it could be frustrating to play against.
Pridemate is only somewhat needy. It depends what you're looking for. If you see it as a 2-drop that usually becomes a 3/3 and sometimes gets much larger then you're fine. But it is by no-means Tarmogoyf. I had games where I was able to get a couple double-digit Pridemates on the table, which I found fun. Beating down with 2-mana 4/4's is also very satisfying.
I don't like the Felidar Sovereign win-condition, and if I was going to run a big evasive lifelinker I think Drogskol Reaver is a better direction.