General Making Aggro more inclusive

[Grillo_Parlante]

Since this discussion really grew, here is a TOC to where archetypes are first brought up:


Page 2 Counter based aggro discussion (ion storm discussed on page 8)
Page 3 lifegain aggro
Page 5 levelers aggro
Page 8 Cycling aggro discussion
Page 8 G/B graveyard aggro list
Page 9 Blue tempo (delver)

---------Original post---------- So, on the back of our discussion about poisonous/narrow aggro, I want to make aggro more inclusive. Right now, it’s more of a spike's paradise—but I have one Timmy and one Johnny in my playgroup's psychological profile, so I feel I need to cater to them more or else a lot of those slots are going to be a waste. ​

I'm not so much concerned with pushing true "aggro decks" but more with making sure at least the weenie creatures are being represented in whatever they build. Weird gravecrawler control decks, for example, would be fine.

What kind of cards can I run to:

1) Push a creative deck builder to want to run the aggro weenie creatures
2) Push a player that likes big flashy plays to invest in small creatures

I've had some measure of success with tribal synergies, using angelic overseer as a flashy card to tie withchampion of the parish, and am thinking of putting in bloodline keeper to connect with the weenie vampires.

How much counter support do I need to make ion storm worthwhile? I have triplechampion of the parish and triplestromkirk noble.

 

[Chris Taylor]

For ion storm, consider some number of gore-house chainwalker and other unleash guys.

Evolve works well too, but most of the good ones are in green, and some colours have to not be aggro ones

 

[anotak]

i don't have any good ideas yet but i'll think on this. i like this thread a lot.

some colours have to not be aggro ones

i disagree with this premise

 

[CML]

i don't have any good ideas yet but i'll think on this. i like this thread a lot.


i disagree with this premise

did you read the "bluegro" thread? doesn't work in the context of most of our cubes. could work for a low power level cube. will 100% not work in a cube with 3 stromkirks and 3 champs.

as for supporting aggro, 3 champs and 3 stromkirks is a start

powermax manabases probably. some mana denial is good too.

 

[Jason Waddell]

How much counter support do I need to make ion storm worthwhile? I have triplechampion of the parish and triplestromkirk noble.

Okay, so here's what I've come to realize about cards like Ion Storm. You can get them to work, but given a cube with high removal density (which I personally advocate for), Ion Storm has to compete with other cards on efficiency terms. Ion Storm costs a card, a +1/+1 counter and five mana to deal 2 damage. A card, two +1/+1 counters and seven mana to deal 4 damage. These are costs, and costs that are hard to swallow in a fast environment.

To get them to really be appealing, you need a low removal density. Put removal at a premium and people will bend over backwards to unlock situational removal (ala retail limited). Is this where you want to be? Maybe. It's not where I want to be.

If you want to do cool things with +1/+1 counters I think you're better off going Volt Charge than Ion Storm.

Fun aggro is hard to pull, and different things appeal to different people. My group really likes the synergies involved with cards like Gravecrawler and Steppe Lynx, and cards with Unearth and various mana sinks make sequencing decisions interesting. The decks need to do more than play efficiently costed beaters who turn sideways to be appealing.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I should be ok running ion storm than, at least in regards to it being competitive with other removal options, as effective non-synergy removal is at a premium here, and usually carries with it a heavy tempo cost. I'm not sure how appealing it would be to run with 3 stromkirks and 3 champions as its main base to feed off of.

My issue is with tying aggro in with the big flashy things that Timmy wants to do, and those types of players don't really care about sequencing complexity, or even winning. I know, its an alien mindset.

I was thinking of running maybe khalni hydra as a timmy card, that would reward running a bunch of small aggro creatures, perhaps experiment one. I think I might have to rework my green section too much though to support it.

Gravecrawler has been great, since he can be a combo engine or an efficent beater.

did you read the "bluegro" thread? doesn't work in the context of most of our cubes. could work for a low power level cube. will 100% not work in a cube with 3 stromkirks and 3 champs.

Ah, there are ways around that. I have a pretty decent blue aggro-disruption package. Having access to a reasonable amount of bounce helps keep those counter-aggro cards in check.

 

[GenericZero]

did you read the "bluegro" thread? doesn't work in the context of most of our cubes. could work for a low power level cube. will 100% not work in a cube with 3 stromkirks and 3 champs.

as for supporting aggro, 3 champs and 3 stromkirks is a start

powermax manabases probably. some mana denial is good too.

I know it is SUPER dull, but if you're pushing blue aggro and need one drops, there's both Cloudfin Raptor and Phantasmal Bear. I run them and IF you get a Cloudfin down within the first 3 turns, you can usually expect to make it a 2/3. Phantasmal Bear took a bit to catch on, but people have grown to like it. As for how to make them feel less terrible in any deck but aggro? Meh, I guess midrange can just GROW a Cloudfin Raptor...the bear...not so good.....I wouldn't cut the bear form my cube though, even if he is strictly worse than usual cuz of the whole "auras and pump spells matter" thing.

 

[anotak]

did you read the "bluegro" thread? doesn't work in the context of most of our cubes. could work for a low power level cube. will 100% not work in a cube with 3 stromkirks and 3 champs.

im cheating i have custom cards

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Does figure of destiny tie into the timmy mindaet, ie make it big, rarh!? How about thinga like renegade krasis? Level up guys? Deftblade elite with auras? Or hero of ironas?

 

[GenericZero]

There's always Battlefield Thaumaturge if you have even a few X spells that target like Profane Command or ANYTHING similar. He's a really fun card in my cube and he's a decent beater when you have nothing else. Plus, he makes removal a bit better in general. So he could be a solid choice.

 

[Dom Harvey]

im cheating i have custom cards

That doesn't help, any statement about an archetype/strategy not being viable can be overturned with enough custom cards.

Blue does aggro well and in a more interesting fashion than most other colours, but that's true of everything else blue does too so blue aggro involves more sacrifices than black/green aggro and definitely more than white/red aggro.

 

[Lucre]

I like doubling up on hybrid beaters. It sorta makes the aggro cards less of a "given" for whatever linear aggro deck your mate across the table wanted to play, and makes your aggro section and early picks more flexible.

This can get out of hand though, and it doesn't actually solve your problem, but you'll find the drafts and decks you are finding are more dynamic and less settled.

 

[Chris Taylor]

i disagree with this premise

Guys

Chill

What I've found is that if every color is an aggro color, you get every deck trying to go under eachother. That's insane and really can't work (Whats the critical turn here, 2?)

Someone needs to be the beatdown in each matchup, and someone needs to be defending. If EVERYONE thinks they're the beatdown, Green naturally lends itself to playing midrange most of the time, and quickly becomes the best thing to play

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Conjecture:

When you slow down the resource accumulation, but retain a high power level of threats, aggro cards become more attractive to more decks which allow for the support of more interesting aggro strategies.

 

[anotak]

Guys

Chill

What I've found is that if every color is an aggro color, you get every deck trying to go under eachother. That's insane and really can't work (Whats the critical turn here, 2?)

Someone needs to be the beatdown in each matchup, and someone needs to be defending. If EVERYONE thinks they're the beatdown, Green naturally lends itself to playing midrange most of the time, and quickly becomes the best thing to play

no no, that's not what i mean. if possible, i want all of my colors to be able to go in a control deck or an aggro deck, i put elements of both in, and don't say that "this is or isn't an aggro/control/midrange/whatever color"

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Conjecture:

When you slow down the resource accumulation, but retain a high power level of threats, aggro cards become more attractive to more decks which allow for the support of more interesting aggro strategies.

Yeah, that’s a really good point, and I've more or less done that, slimming down on a lot of the old ramp options or trying to diversify them. The problem that I've ran into is that Timmy continues to overvalue the threats, but doesn’t pick up on, or really care, that the supporting infrastructure has been reduced. With Johnny, I still need to be able to make the aggro cards connect with his creative side, which can be tricky.

---
Thanks for the card suggestions. I think I’m just going to be very open minded and not dismiss anything. I will make a list of the cards suggested and run those cards by the players and try to get some preliminary feedback.

I was actually just thinking about running some more levelers, as a mana sink for turns where you are flipping werewolves. Figure should be a model card, but I think the too strong spot removal I used to run soured people on it, and they tend to evaluate it as an easily disruptable 2/2. Maybe that evaluation will change in time though: all it really has to do is go big once.

 

[CML]

I know it is SUPER dull, but if you're pushing blue aggro and need one drops, there's both Cloudfin Raptor and Phantasmal Bear. I run them and IF you get a Cloudfin down within the first 3 turns, you can usually expect to make it a 2/3. Phantasmal Bear took a bit to catch on, but people have grown to like it. As for how to make them feel less terrible in any deck but aggro? Meh, I guess midrange can just GROW a Cloudfin Raptor...the bear...not so good.....I wouldn't cut the bear form my cube though, even if he is strictly worse than usual cuz of the whole "auras and pump spells matter" thing.

i think this is yet another possibility we should explore in a lower power-level cube, such as

http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/everyone-come-look-at-and-work-on-this-communal-cube.580/unread

pauper delver might also provide some help: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/9008#online

 

[Jason Waddell]

Figure causes you to lose games you should win and win games you should lose.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

This looks like it could be one of the winners. It’s a powerful noisy effect that rewards you for playing a large number of smaller creatures. Plus, who doesn’t like hellions.

 

[Lucre]

Figure causes you to lose games you should win and win games you should lose.

You gotta explain the losing winning games common situation.

 

[Jonas]

This looks like it could be one of the winners. It’s a powerful noisy effect that rewards you for playing a large number of smaller creatures. Plus, who doesn’t like hellions.

I'm really in the mood for playing this card, it should work great if you play things like fires of yavimaya and porphy, no?

 

[GenericZero]

This looks like it could be one of the winners. It’s a powerful noisy effect that rewards you for playing a large number of smaller creatures. Plus, who doesn’t like hellions.

I'm too lazy to look up a list so someone post a card image gallery of all Hellions that have been printed. I want to admire their "tremors"-esque feel. I also just remembered that Hellions are on Zendikar...and look like they would fit PERFECT in a post-apocalyptic zendikar world.

 

[Laz]

I'm too lazy to look up a list so someone post a card image gallery of all Hellions that have been printed. I want to admire their "tremors"-esque feel. I also just remembered that Hellions are on Zendikar...and look like they would fit PERFECT in a post-apocalyptic zendikar world.

This should do it.

I think this one is my favourite art-wise:

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Artisan of Kozilek has my favorite hellion in it. Just a very cool image.

Anyways, ideas:



Rage forger seems perfect for me; but this guy would be amazing as an exciting aggro build around if it were possible:

 

[Chris Taylor]

no no, that's not what i mean. if possible, i want all of my colors to be able to go in a control deck or an aggro deck, i put elements of both in, and don't say that "this is or isn't an aggro/control/midrange/whatever color"

Part of the problem is "supporting aggro" in a color demands a certain density of creatures (usually somewhere above 50%)
Otherwise your curve is going to look real sad

With that many creatures running around, they tend to just slam into eachother and trade, or board stall. Green is REALLY good at requiring about 1.5 cards for each of their creatures to trade off, and has a few ways to generate edges in the long game, like most of the repeatable token makers or overrun.

I suppose it could be different if lots and lots of creatures have evasion, but they kinda all have to have different kinds of evasion or everything just slams into eachother again (like if everything had flying)
But that makes combat really uninteresting. As good a card as bedlam is, I don't think I'd want it in play T1 every game ever