General Making control decks more interesting

I'm confident that this has been addressed in other posts throughout the history of these forums, and I also think it's been a good design principle from my own experience.

I prefer mid-range to control builds in Cube, I'm a little too nervous to go all in on an aggro strategy. We have a pretty sizeable rotating group of players that come through and play my list, so I get tons of perspective and feedback about what is or isn't in the list.

For context, I run a 360 Modern Cube (so nothing that couldn't be legal in Modern with no ban list).

Many players have lamented the quality of counter spells or the quality of definitive finishers that can easily close out games. While tinkering with the list, what I've hit upon (and is the point I was obliquely referencing at the beginning of the post) is that "restrictions breed creativity" and that at least in the context of cube environments, novelty and creativity create lasting impressions and interesting, interactive games.

A good example is the difference between Cancel and Familiar's Ruse/Deprive.

Many control players have mentioned they'd rather see a hard counter they can rely on, rather than a conditional counter that impacts their board state, or in some circumstances they can't even cast.

I've maintained that the conditions on those spells lead to a plurality of more interesting board states and deck construction requirements that make the control builds more than just "Wrath, Go Late, Drop A Finisher, Win". I've been pretty stubborn in refusing to change up the package, and while it's important to listen to your playground, sometimes as a designer you can see through a wider lens than an individual player.

What I've seen, is games where players have been required to play their deck differently to gain access to the type of marquee control effects they're used to. Deprive and Familiar's Ruse as an example, means that the player needs to make a sequence of decisions that is unfamiliar to them, and feels slightly off.

The result is game states that are novel, even if they seem fairly familiar from an archetype perspective. I've watch many games unfold and then be animatedly talked about afterward where the Control player was talking to their opponent about the way they had to troubleshoot limitations on their Control play sequence.

EDIT: Oh, also! And I think this is something Wizard's has learned as well...what player's SAY they want, isn't always what they PLAY. I think our game brains gravitate towards consistency and power in may cases, and the odd perspective is that we derive greater enjoyment from situations where we are delighted and surprised, versus ones where we get exactly what we were expecting.

Anywho, a little long winded and maybe off-topic, but I thought it would be helpful to reiterate the design principle, as it's been a valuable re-learning for myself.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think what you are saying is that you want to make niche strategies available in addition to established strategies; and one of the ways you do that is by providing slightly off-beat cards, which players initially misevaluate, complain about, but ultimately enjoy having access to?

Which would bring us back to:

I kind of would like to see some interesting control shells, rather than individual cards.

How would obelisk's non-blue control shell look? As a niche strategy, what cards feed into it.
 
I think what you are saying is that you want to make niche strategies available in addition to established strategies; and one of the ways you do that is by providing slightly off-beat cards, which players initially misevaluate, complain about, but ultimately enjoy having access to?

Which would bring us back to:



How would obelisk's non-blue control shell look? As a niche strategy, what cards feed into it.

From my own list's last iteration (currently working on an update), I think I'd want it in a {G}{B} or {G}{W} list.

Something like..

Obelisk Converge










The core concept is to durdle around, holding off more aggressive decks with removal as you try to dig for and ramp out the Obelisk as quickly as possible. From there, you can switch gears to beating down with the {1}{G} or {1}{R} activation of the Obelisk. Between fetches, duals, green's fantastic multicolour fixers, and dig tools, it looks like it wouldn't be too difficult to get the Obelisk in your hand and on the battlefield, and it could run away from the game from there. The {1}{W} activation is what really helps push it into playability, I think; if you've got a few biscuits on the board, you can threaten to block and pump with the {1}{G}, and if they don't swing, you just build up to an unreachable position off the {1}{W}.
 
From my own list's last iteration (currently working on an update), I think I'd want it in a {G}{B} or {G}{W} list.

Something like..

Obelisk Converge










The core concept is to durdle around, holding off more aggressive decks with removal as you try to dig for and ramp out the Obelisk as quickly as possible. From there, you can switch gears to beating down with the {1}{G} or {1}{R} activation of the Obelisk. Between fetches, duals, green's fantastic multicolour fixers, and dig tools, it looks like it wouldn't be too difficult to get the Obelisk in your hand and on the battlefield, and it could run away from the game from there. The {1}{W} activation is what really helps push it into playability, I think; if you've got a few biscuits on the board, you can threaten to block and pump with the {1}{G}, and if they don't swing, you just build up to an unreachable position off the {1}{W}.
This! This is a good post. Constructive, eye-opening. Like, I had no idea the green one is the one that wins. So cool! And the sample deck, control of every non-blue color. Sweet.

That's how I get won over to a card, that's for sure. Oh, and bonus (all cards in my cube):

 
Ooh, remember when Grillo tried to put together some cards for a GB life pay/life gain control theme? That dynamic has certainly worked in Hearthstone recently with the rise of Reno Jackson control decks. Is there anything new we can learn from Renolock that applies to making a life-as-resource theme for control decks work within a cube?
 
Was sylvan library used as a draw engine?

Black based control always has that neat life pay element. I like the idea of that deck being able to use the mana dorks to activate the {W} ability on obelisk, and power a draw engine.

More often than not I see library get used for card selection and heavy fetchland support for shuffling; I'd say in my environ we see the payment being made once every other game, but every now and then someone will just blow 8 in a pinch. I think I'd like the card a bit more if it was 5 per card instead of 4, but I still really enjoy it and haven't felt like it was too powerful; the painful manabase and the overall health of aggressive strategies keep it in check.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ooh, remember when Grillo tried to put together some cards for a GB life pay/life gain control theme? That dynamic has certainly worked in Hearthstone recently with the rise of Reno Jackson control decks. Is there anything new we can learn from Renolock that applies to making a life-as-resource theme for control decks work within a cube?


Yeah, there is a lot of precedent for life pay control decks in magic. Its just a question of scaling it for the environment, and the constellation of cards you need to run to make it happen. Obelisk might fit into that equation, but there are numerous other cards that can feed the strategy.

Sylvan library is a very interesting card as its used at times as a draw engine in vintage, and there is no set reason (with proper support) that it can't fill that role in cube. Of course, it will be a niche strategy, but thats fine, as it adds depth to the drafting and deck building experience. Green is such a rich potential source of life gain, that its not difficult to imagine a player stumbling into a G/B deck, picking sylvan up for card selection (which a G/B/x control deck is going to very badly want) and than find out to their delight that it can transition into a draw engine as well.

Of course, a lot of our formats are so tempo focused that trading life for cards might not be a practical strategy.
 
I have to wonder what effect running multiples of library would have on greens identity within an environment. It's in color pie for green (except the life pay), but it's such a rare sort of effect, especially at such a high quality (see foster, cream of the crop, etc) that having it be a common fixture across multiple decks would almost certainly change the timbre of your players' green decks.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
As another thought, are there any constructed control decks you would think of as "interesting"?


The UWR Firemane Angel deck that Grillo linked was one of my first loves, another favourite:

Wafo-Tapa BUG









A nice hybrid of tap-out control and draw-go, with a small reanimation package grafted in . The Vivid/Pool + chargeland + filter manabase is sweet too. This is probably easy to replicate in Cube as BUG with Mannequin/Necromancy for Mystic Snake/GEA etc

Dredge-A-Tog










Basically all of my favourite cards pre-2007

The 3-colour bounceland/Signet control decks from Kami/Rav and Rav/TSP Standard were cool and fairly customizable
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I've mentioned the Gaea's Blessing control decks before, and watching Finkel go off with Seasons Past at the PT got me thinking about it for Cube. You can do similar things with Primal Command + Regrowth/Eternal Witness, but Seasons Past is the entire effect in one package and is a very powerful card by itself. It's everything I wanted All Suns' Dawn to be.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The problem with breaking singleton on library is that having multiples doesn't do much for you in the same deck (also its a rules nightmare in paper).

Wafo-Tapa is such a great designer. Thats basically BUG solar flare, but cryptic lets it really ride an advantage in certain spots.

Really like the second deck, as gifts just looks amazing there: +4 +4 for psychtog at instant speed, buff circular logic/ghastly demise, or grab a utility box of nightmare void, genesis, darkblast, life from the loam.
 
(also its a rules nightmare in paper).

Sylvan Library is a rules nightmare, period. I'm not looking forward to trying to convey Dredge interactions with it when it finally comes up :,) It's worth the migraine, but yeah, I definitely don't think there's enough reason to double up. If you're gonna double card selection enchants in green, Oath of Nissa seems way better, and it's something I've considered, except it doesn't enable control super well, and exploring {G}-based control has been kinda one of the more exciting tracks I've been on lately.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Sylvan Library is a rules nightmare, period. I'm not looking forward to trying to convey Dredge interactions with it when it finally comes up :,) It's worth the migraine, but yeah, I definitely don't think there's enough reason to double up. If you're gonna double card selection enchants in green, Oath of Nissa seems way better, and it's something I've considered, except it doesn't enable control super well, and exploring {G}-based control has been kinda one of the more exciting tracks I've been on lately.

I'm excited for the new border printing of Sylvan Library that will no doubt be in Eternal Masters :)
 
You all have to check out this GB deck that Finkle is running: its basically a how to guide for control design.

1. Mana superiority: check
2. Low CC one for ones: check
3. High CC many for ones: check
4. Sweet control tool that doubles as a win con: check

It even shows lifegain/lifepay control elements, as well as using tutors to create deck consistency in the absence of blue cantrips.


That's a really beautiful little check list for what a control list should be able to do.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
You all have to check out this GB deck that Finkle is running: its basically a how to guide for control design.

1. Mana superiority: check
2. Low CC one for ones: check
3. High CC many for ones: check
4. Sweet control tool that doubles as a win con: check

It even shows lifegain/lifepay control elements, as well as using tutors to create deck consistency in the absence of blue cantrips.
Is that the deck that made Seasons Past spike in price?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Its going to go in a very different deck than greenwarden though. The card itself reminds me of braingeyser

Here is the deck tech btw.

I like how reid started out by saying that in the current standard blue isn't the best control color. Something to keep in mind when you are wanting to encourage non-blue control and have to balance green's "awe inspiring" assortment of sylvan library, oath of nissa, and seasons' past with ponder, preordain, x6 brainstorms, dig through time, fact or fiction, and treasure cruise.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The difference is that greenwarden directly adds to your board while seasons doesn't.

I realize enough good stuff drafting occurs in cube where both such cards could end up in the same deck, but I think its important to recognize (as format designers) that seasons offers an opportunity to promote something unique for green (hard control), while green warden promotes the standard green midrange value paradigm trying to 2 for 1 you while adding big monsters to the board.

Seasons can make control decks more interesting, greenwarden is better positioned to make midrange decks more interesting.

The ceiling on seasons I also think is a bit lower when you step back and compare it with similar cards in blue. In any sort of pressure focused format, spending 6 mana on a spell that doesn't immediately effect the board is a pretty big issue, and requires some more deck building considerations from the drafter concerning life total. If your supporting lifegain cards aren't midrange creatures, making it feel like a B/G or G/W control card should be possible.
 
having tested for a while with Gx midrange-control in standard, I can see Seasons being way too strong for my environment, at least. I feel like All Sun's Dawn is more my speed, getting 2-3 cards, probably. Too bad, really, because everything Grillo says I agree with. It's an incredible control tool that directly benefits a deck playing the control style (casting spells to the yard, mana curve has a higher ceiling, etc etc).

Still might test it tho. And it'd probably be just as helpful to "normal" control as to "cool" control, and those type of decks have suffered in my format. So who knows? And when one asks that to themselves, it's perfect time for testin'
 
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