Card/Deck Mana rocks / Colourless mana fixing

[Eric Chan]

This is a topic I've seen bubble up every now and then, and I'm always curious as to how other cube designers approach the issue of colourless mana fixing (i.e. mana rocks). How many do you include? Are there any that you exclude for power level concerns? Does the density of colourless fixing keep you up at night like it does for me?

No right or wrong answers. I just want a survey of how people approach this, because I'm here to learn!

I'll go first. My current list in my 405 cube is:

Wayfarer's Bauble - undisputed all star
Coldsteel Heart
Everflowing Chalice
Guardian Idol
Mind Stone
Prismatic Lens
Sphere of the Suns
Pristine Talisman

Excluded:
all signets - don't like the easy ramp they provide for non-green decks
Coalition Relic - holy cow this thing is broken. It takes any deck from 3 mana to 6 on turn 4. Aside from Joraga Treespeaker and Lotus Cobra, there are no green cards that can boost you by two mana in a single shot. And Relic even fixes!

My baseline for inclusion is that it basically needs to be worse than the green ramp I'm running, so as not to bolster durdly midrange decks more than they need to be. Wayfarer's Bauble is skirting the line for what I consider to be too good.

So eight colorless fixers, after recently cutting Chrome Mox (which doesn't really go in the same deck as any of the above). I'm not sure if this is the right amount, too much, or too little. But I'm hoping that seeing what you guys do can help me figure that out.

Post up yours!

 

[CML]

I think your choices are flawless, but I would go with a slightly lighter density. My Cube greatly benefited from going from 10 signets to 4 signets (arbitrarily selected) to 0 signets. Somewhere along the way I also cut Coalition Relic and Chromatic Lantern. (Only one card suggestion: I think you could consider Lantern but it's so damn slow.) I'm open to the idea that a few mana rocks could be fun, though.

Go down to five?
Wayfarer's Bauble - undisputed all star
Coldsteel Heart - I like the choice it makes you make
Mind Stone - who doesn't like drawing a card?
Prismatic Lens - another fun one
Pristine Talisman - elegant design

Cut:
Guardian Idol - bears are lame
Everflowing Chalice - always cast for 2 mana
Sphere of the Suns - running out of counters is frustrating

 

[Jason Waddell]

Sphere of the Suns - My favorite, and managing counters is a really fun resource management thing.
Coldsteel Heart - A fun choice, and I have definitely lost games from playing this card incorrectly.
Everflowing Chalice - Trinket Mage target, if that's a thing for you.
Wayfarer's Bauble - It's good, but... I don't think you need to cut it. Interesting that it pairs with Instants, which isn't usually the case for acceleration.

 

[VibeBox]

You have a good point about Coalition Relic, and while I still run it in my Cube I would definitely agree that it is an extremely powerful card. I doubt I'll cut it any time soon but it's more about it being a personal favorite of mine.

I like most of your choices as well, and I'm glad to see Wayfarer's Bauble getting some love around here because while it is on the opposite end of the power spectrum I've always liked it because as Jason said it works smoothly with EoT plans.

Agreed with Jason on Sphere of the Suns, I think it's a good card and a skill tester because of it's resource management issues.

I actually slightly disagree about Everflowing Chalice. While it's no all star I think it sometimes can get cast for 4, with the corner case advantage of costing 0 in a pinch for a Tinker deck.

Some others:
Gilded Lotus - unlike the rest this one is expensive, but it enables different kinds of decks and is very powerful. colloquially referred to as 'can of spinach' this card deserves a slot because it wows and it's unique.

Star Compass - This one isn't great, but my Cube is currently a bit bloated and emphasizes color commitment so this one got a slot. Don't forget it's bizzarro twin Felwar Stone if that strikes your fancy.

Lotus Petal and Lotus Bloom - I currently run both of these as support for the Storm archetype, both are acceptable, only Petal has been exciting in certain Yawgmoth's Will decks.

Talisman of Progress and co - While public opinion has turned on the signets ( I don't run them either), these work very differently and should be judged on their own merits.

Prophetic Prism - This one doesn't accel at all, only fix and replace. It's an interesting one.

Pentad Prism - I personally think this is an overlooked card. I've brewed with it in Modern and it's been in my Cube since day one. It may seem lackluster, but it's a versatile and powerful card. Tinker loves it because it leaves a convenient husk to sac while you still have your lands to cast countermagic. 4 and 5 color decks hungrily devour this thing for it's safety valve nature, making sure they can cast their important spells at the crucial moment. Ramp sometimes even plays it purely on the basis of it being in the "lotus cobra/coalition relic/joaraga treespeaker" club of providing 2 additional mana in a turn. Granted it is terrible in the Wildfire deck.

 

[CML]

ah the talismans. i was gonna mention them but (having never played with them) i assumed they were just 'signets.' you say otherwise. you're probably right. can you describe how, though?

bauble is cool. i might want to try it.

gilded lotus is interesting...

[bear with me as i change the subject]

...as was the language you used to describe it. with my cube moving more towards 'constructed' and away from 'EDH + limited' i don't think it's necessary or even desirable for a card to 'wow' people (for me). when a card 'wow's people i think of casuals at FNM draft slamming a massacre wurm on the table, or little kids drooling over the giant adephage they just drafted (only to be later told that it's worth 50¢ and they shoulda taken the boros charm). in my cube a synergy should wow people, as should a plan and a deck. but an individual card is just another card that can be picked or passed or played or cut. anyway you don't have to agree with me at all. but i thought it would be a nice spot to articulate one of my design principles.

how do you make storm in cube without adding a bunch of cards that nobody else wants?

same question with tinker?

modern brews with pentad prism? ad nauseam unlife? hive mind? enduring ideal? (i think my modern brews have elicited more groans than wows, more because my cards are terrible but the decks, well...)

 

[tomchaps]

Since my cube began as very budget, and since lands are the most expensive part of most cubes, I relied heavily on artifact fixing for most of my cube's life. I enjoy superramp timmy plays (Mirari's Wake will leave my cube when you pry it from my cold, dead hands), and wanted to spread the acceleration around a bit. Finally, I've stubbornly persisted in trying to get the Tezzerets to work, and they require a certain density of artifact mana.

This is all to say: I still run way more artifact mana than you guys. The only thing I've cut is Sol Ring, because, I mean, sheesh.

Everflowing Chalice: My cube is a bit slower, and this is only 80% of the time cast for 2 mana. Servicable. (Great with Contagion Clasp!)
Gilded Lotus: An early gift for my cube mailed from New Zealand by a random MTGS cuber and now something of a pet card, it's certainly too slow for Jason's cube, but fine in mine.
Lotus Bloom: Again, I like enabling silly mana plays. I have more X-spells than most cubes and more 7-8 mana monsters. A fair Tinker target.
Chromatic Lantern: Ah, actual fixing. It's no Coalition Relic, and might allow for lazy 3-5 color goodstuff decks too much for my liking. Not sure if it will stay.
Mana Vault: See below
Grim Monolith: Grim and Mana Vault worried me the most about the ramping artifacts, and they're certainly absurd cards, but they are only used as a Dark Ritual (activated only once) in about 70% of games. Not as bad as I had feared.
Mind Stone: Perfectly reasonable
Coalition Relic: Perfectly firstpickable, as long as you're not planning on going hard aggro. Again, since my lands are relatively subpar, the extra fixing is more necessary for me.

I've cut half of the signets, more to make room for more interesting cards than out of concern for the sanctity of green's ramping.
Dimir Signet: With Tezz 2.0 in, this had to stay
Izzet Signet
Azorius Signet
Orzhov Signet
Simic Signet. Wait, I'm still running this? When I cut Simic Sky Swallower for Zegana? This, at least will be rectified soon.

I would be interested in experimenting with a massive axing of artifacts here, and eliminating the Tezzerets and the artifact deck.
http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=!Coalition+Relic

 

[VibeBox]

Talismans are different because you can only get one color at a time out of them, and almost as important is the fact that you'll often find yourself tapping them for a colorless. Paying one life for the colored mana doesn't seem huge, but lots of decks already pay life and that shit adds up. To me the restriction of getting one color at a time makes them far less toxic to the environment, and the fact that there are only allied colors available is another plus. (if that's a point of focus in your cube)
One last tidbit, Talismans actually play a little better in Wildfire decks since they don't have the awkward restriction of needing to be "fed" a mana to work.

Supporting Tinker is mostly easy, you just have to keep a certain minimum density of artifacts around to be sacced, usually mana artifacts serve just fine, and after that it's just a matter of making sure there are a small handful of targets. These targets may seem like awkward includes, but you just have to make sure they're cards other decks might play. Ramp, Show and Tell, and Reanimator are the biggest cross-archetype bros here, and you'll sometimes even see hybrid type decks of a couple of these strategies. Sphinx of Steel, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan and the like can be devastating no matter how you get them play, and if you can get the ratio right then you end up with enough people at the table looking for these types of big baddies that they won't just linger in pack undrafted or get immediately snatched every time.
While I won't claim it's a seamless integration (mostly because my Cube is a little bloated atm) I think it's a playable card that is an interesting archetype all to itself, much like Wildfire which conveniently also needs a certain threshold of artifact mana.
I won't say I'd never cut Tinker because that could certainly happen, but for now at least my attitude toward it is that it's worth working around to get in. Though Natural Order is probably the better card because it requires less work and arguably has better targets.

Storm is trickier. As you feared it does indeed require slots to be filled with cards that are narrow only a couple of decks would want, though it may wind up less than you'd imagine. The key I think is finding enough cards that are good in Storm, but turn out interesting in other decks too, or at least serviceable. When we first added the package I was fretting over just this issue, worries "who is gonna play these damn Rituals?" but it's actually completely changed the way I look at cards like Dark Ritual and Seething Song. They've enjoyed life in a few different decks and been perfectly reasonable. Really though the manafacts themselves are what's vital to storm. You really have to be able to build your critical turn, and you'll need all the mana you can get to pump that storm count all at once when it matters.
So yeah, you're gonna end up with some cards like Turnabout and Manamorphose that are unexciting role players in a narrow sense that won't get drafted highly or sometimes at all, but for me it's worth the trade off of seeing cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Time Spiral, or Mind's Desire suddenly turned into enticing prospects that can now push someone into the color.

As for Guilded Lotus, I agree with you attitude actually, it was my language that was ambiguous. I'm super super fucking spikey, so when I say "wows" what I mean is that it really impressed with how well it played in so many decks. I was unsure if it would turn out playable, but time and again I've played it in Ramp, Wildfire, Sotrm, Control, and 'Good Stuff' and every time it's earned it's draft pick. You're right though, I don't think it's necessary for there to be cards in cube that serve only to "be cool". The Archetypes and decks themselves should do that!

There is one caveat to both above sections though. (Storm and Guilded Lotus) I think they are both considerably worse as the power level of the Cube they're in goes up. (though Storm can actually get very strong in a full Powered environment) I personally run a very low power level in my Cube with an extensive banned list. I feel that capping the power level opens up far more options than it closes off and is imperative to a healthy format, but that's a topic for another thread (which I'll certainly be bringing up soon)


I'm not gonna touch Grim Monolith right now because it's not fixing it's ramp, and I fully intend to make a dedicated thread to it in the next couple of days.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I run serum powder. it' has a splendid effect on 40 card decks

i also run a cycle of medalions. they make splashing less easy, while still providing the ramp a midrange/wildfire deck would like.

the full suite:

Spoiler

Talisman of Progress
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Indulgence
Talisman of Impulse
Talisman of Unity
Mind stone
Armillary Sphere
Prophetic Prism
Wayfarer's Bauble
Wayfarer's Bauble
Serum powder
Palladium Myr
Scuttlemutt
Solemn Simulacrum

 

[Rob Dennis]

I got out my way to support Wildfire / Upheaval and to that end I do run a bit more colourless ramp/fixing than I would do otherwise:
http://cuesbey.com/#/1dedd8ff-78f2-4efc-9a89-8471c864b9fd


Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Everflowing Chalice
Coldsteel Heart
Grim Monolith
Izzet Signet
Mind Stone
Prismatic Lens
Rakdos Signet
Basalt Monolith
Chromatic Lantern
Coalition Relic
Pristine Talisman
Worn Powerstone
Thran Dynamo
Gilded Lotus


of special note: I have two signets here that touch red and I am running relic.

So far, this has not done anything to overcome Green's place as highly played, contested and successful, but that's influenced a bit by the preferences of some of my common players I think. If I was cutting Wildwire, I'd lose the two signets, the relic, and everflowing chalice I think.

serum powder is interesting and I rebaselined at 3CMC being where I'd expect artifact fixing, it'd be an interesting inclusion

 

[CML]

everyone else post your thoughts on serum powder!

vibe: thanks for the reply, this is very cool.

tinker: Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan seem fun, sphinx isn't my thing (fucking protection) but maybe there's some other enjoyable big artifacts. plat angel? grim poppet? darksteel colossus? inkwell? plat empyrion? REAPER KING??

natty o: this seems to have fewer targets than tinker, beyond primus/terastodon/hoof i cant think of many besides the 'screwed-if-you-draw-it' progenitus

going out of your way to support upheaval is like giving welfare to michael jordan

 

[tomchaps]

Yeah, I've been staring at Serum Powder all morning, trying to figure out if it would ever be played. Give us specifics, Hannes!

 

[VibeBox]

Tinker: I run Darksteel Collossus and Platinum Empirion. Platinum Angel was pretty dissapointing, and I run a very low power cube, so I can't recommend it personally. Blightsteel would probably be "better" than Darksteel, but I don't want infect in my format, and I certainly don't want a creature that just kills in one swing like that.

Serum Powder is a pet card of mine that I've never included in my Cube because I was always afraid I'd never be able to be impartial about it and it would just never come back out. I'm certainly going to be paying close attention to further discussion of it because I'm a big fan of out there effects like this (I have to be told to cut my singleton Gemstone Caverns from Modern decks sometime, but damn I just can't help it sometimes you mise a free win when someone doesn't get whats going on and clicks through their turn1)

 

[CML]

yeah, just throwing out some ideas, of course most of them are terrible! good points about blightsteel being too good / platinum angel being too bad, i agree with the specifics and the thought process. i haven't ever tested tinker (not my thing) but blind, i guess i'd go with

Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
Grim Poppet
Darksteel Colossus
Inkwell Leviathan

you could also try Mindslaver, Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Kuldotha Forgemaster if your group likes those.

cut your gemstone caverns bro!!

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I've still to see serum-powder in action, but i have high hopes for it.

I'm thinking zeniths, beacons (or highly aggressive aggro?) decks slotting out 7 cards to increase the density of effective spells, making for an often stronger 7 cards. if you have six cards you do not want to "free mulligan" you should already be in the safe. i'm only worried about it being a dead draw sometimes, but that's something time and experience shall point out.

 

[CML]

have you guys tried "second mull is also to six"? it's been a hit here. they should do it for all limited formats

 

[Jason Waddell]

I haven't tried it, but I can't imagine it would be bad. The only two arguments I've seen against it are a) momentum and b) combo constructed decks. I also think that when you play with a large stable of players (we have a large rotating cast, and newcomers regularly) then every house rule you explain adds a bit of burden. We already have to explain the utility land draft, so I try not to overly complexify (not a word).

This is another one of those thing that I would do if I were on a desert island with a fixed group, but avoid with my real world conditions.

 

[CML]

"just give it a try"

fwiw i've found players also like a little enforced ritual too. for example, forbidding the dull high roll and instead instituting compulsory best-2-out-of-3 RPS matches (one-two-shoot, west-coast style) has helped us forge an identity (however shallow)

 

[BennyD]

We've experimented with using EDH mulligan rules in cube matches. I like the consistency it offers in starting hands, so you curve out a little better.

 

[Jesse G]

My group has been doing half card mulligans, where the first mull is to six cards but you get to scry 1 before deciding whether to keep. next mulligan is to six with no scry, then five scry 1 and so on. It's worked really well so far, making second mull decisions more interesting. Since it's scry 1 not peek 1, there are actually three options after the first mulligan.

 

[CML]

ah yes this sounds even better (i think most of our contestants take peek 1 at liberty anyway after mulling cuz fuck it, they think they're entitled to and i agree). will try it next time. great suggestion

 

[Jason Waddell]

That half-mulligan idea sounds pretty neat. I know Rosewater and others have talked about there being too much momentum with the current mulligan system, that there's not enough need for a change to warrant the confusion it would cause. But at a playgroup level it sounds perfect.

I also think that in constructed Magic, a large benefit of having harsher mulligans is keeping the strength of combo decks in check a bit. That's not really a relevant factor in my cube, at least. I'll take my usual line and say that I like this idea, but probably won't use it myself as I have a pretty large revolving cast of players, and I try to keep the additional rules overhead to a minimum (as I already have to explain the utility land draft, for example). With a more regular dedicated group I would definitely experiment more with mulligan rules.

 

[CML]

right, i'm not sure when the mulligan rules were solidified in their current form but i'm pretty sure it was around the time urza's block was standard-legal. of course this was a combo-fueled clusterfuck. for constructed, there's no way you could change the mulligan rules (at least not in legacy and modern, probably not in standard or block either) as combo decks would just abuse greater leniency. for limited, there's almost no reason not to.

(and the momentum thing is kinda bs, as firstly rosewater doesn't know anything about competitive magic, or so he's claimed; secondly the EDH rules are different; thirdly they change the rules all the time)

 

[Jason Waddell]

Well, I will say, confusion creep is a real thing, especially among newer or less experienced players. WOTC has been incredibly successful in expanding their audience and understanding what was keeping people away from the game, so I tend to give them credit in this domain. Not to say your points are invalid, but, I can understand their reasoning.

I also don't have too much of an issue with the regular mulligan system. I don't feel like it has a very strong impact on my play experience. Sub-optimal, sure, but not very impactful.

 

[CML]

it's true, my favorite set is also the worst-selling set of all time

 

[Eric Chan]

Super thread necro, go!

A post on Twitter recently got me to thinking - is it time to include some hot signet action? Control could use a boost around here, and one of the cornerstones of a strong control deck is solid fixing via mana rocks.

I currently run


Would those be better off as this batch of non-green signets? (Mostly because green has plenty of better ramp to lean on)


Or - all ten signets?
Or - only blue signets?
Or - stick with zero signets?